Dell made a lot of hardware changes to the 2018 XPS—do they play nice with Ubuntu 18.04?
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Dell’s 2018 XPS 13 DE—The best “out of the box” Linux laptop gets the best OS
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For Intel machines like this one, with no other GPU, a lot of work was done by Red Hat in order to optimize battery usage. But I don't know if the improvements trickled down to Ubuntu 18.04, since back in July only Clear Linux and Fedora had them:
A Look At The Windows 10 vs. Linux Power Consumption On A Dell XPS 13 Laptop
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Moreover, it should probably be pointed out that the claim made in the article (that you need to get the HiDPI display in order to have 16GB of RAM) is factually incorrect. As shown here, you can easily order the 9370 DE with the i7 processor, FHD display, and upgrade to 16GB of RAM:
Personally I would always go with the FHD display for maximum battery life "on the go," and then plug in to a much larger display at your desk if desired.
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Taking a piece of chocolate cake and dropping it on a dog turd doesn't mean I want to eat the dog turd.
(Typing from an XPS15 9560 running Xubuntu 18.10)
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Anecdotal experience (data is not the plural of anecdote etc.):
I bought a 9370 (XPS 13, 2018 model) DE edition this past July. It came with Ubuntu 16.04 and it worked amazingly well. I easily got 10 hours and often more of coding time on a battery charge. The trackpad was responsive but did not cause the mouse to zoom off to the side of the screen when my palm got too close. Video, audio, WiFi, everything worked out of the box (never tried the webcam).
I bought the 16GB RAM/256GB SSD version with the lower resolution screen to get the better battery life. It either does not have the fingerprint reader or I missed setting it up somewhere.
I upgraded to 18.04 (at the time there did not seem to be a Dell-supported path for this, not sure that there is now) and am far less happy. This was done with the standard Ubuntu update. It was not a reinstall. I enabled what I could of Dell's repositories, but most seem to be unsupported for 18.04 or the tweaks were rolled into upstream. I have not really looked for a couple of months. Note that this was after Dell announced support for 18.04 on the XPS 13 as a direct purchase.
The battery life is definitely lower. I have not run it dry under multiple conditions, so all I can say is about 2 hours less. The trackpad is far more sensitive to palms and will zoom the mouse off in some odd direction multiple times per day unless I type with my hands held far above the keyboard. I have odd mouse events even when I know that my palms were nowhere near the trackpad. When I look online I see other reports of this.
Is that Dell's updates missing or is it 18.04? I cannot tell. 18.04 was a huge step backward in stability for all of the other machines I have that run Ubuntu. How much is Unity (16.04) vs. Gnome? Different kernels? No idea. I did not use Gnome before. Given the experience with the other systems (all very vanilla and built by hand for Linux support), I would look first at Ubuntu and the rest of ecosystem before I looked at Dell.
I bought a 9370 (XPS 13, 2018 model) DE edition this past July. It came with Ubuntu 16.04 and it worked amazingly well. I easily got 10 hours and often more of coding time on a battery charge. The trackpad was responsive but did not cause the mouse to zoom off to the side of the screen when my palm got too close. Video, audio, WiFi, everything worked out of the box (never tried the webcam).
I bought the 16GB RAM/256GB SSD version with the lower resolution screen to get the better battery life. It either does not have the fingerprint reader or I missed setting it up somewhere.
I upgraded to 18.04 (at the time there did not seem to be a Dell-supported path for this, not sure that there is now) and am far less happy. This was done with the standard Ubuntu update. It was not a reinstall. I enabled what I could of Dell's repositories, but most seem to be unsupported for 18.04 or the tweaks were rolled into upstream. I have not really looked for a couple of months. Note that this was after Dell announced support for 18.04 on the XPS 13 as a direct purchase.
The battery life is definitely lower. I have not run it dry under multiple conditions, so all I can say is about 2 hours less. The trackpad is far more sensitive to palms and will zoom the mouse off in some odd direction multiple times per day unless I type with my hands held far above the keyboard. I have odd mouse events even when I know that my palms were nowhere near the trackpad. When I look online I see other reports of this.
Is that Dell's updates missing or is it 18.04? I cannot tell. 18.04 was a huge step backward in stability for all of the other machines I have that run Ubuntu. How much is Unity (16.04) vs. Gnome? Different kernels? No idea. I did not use Gnome before. Given the experience with the other systems (all very vanilla and built by hand for Linux support), I would look first at Ubuntu and the rest of ecosystem before I looked at Dell.
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I did not install Fedora or Clear, but I did run Arch on it for a couple weeks and it had much better battery life (about 8-10 hours, mostly writing in vim (running in urxvt) browsing in Vivaldi). But I was also using i3 rather than GNOME, which probably made as big, if not a bigger difference than anything at the distro/kernel level.
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Dell was always my favourite OEM hardware-wise. To top it off, they are now providing the best Linux support.
Now, if they want to go even further, they should offer AMD-powered variants of models like these.
Now, if they want to go even further, they should offer AMD-powered variants of models like these.
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I really like this laptop and was thinking about purchasing it. I ended up going with the Surface Book due to the 3:2 screen ratio. As a developer, that extra heights makes such a huge difference. I wish more laptops had 3:2 ratio monitors.
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I only have two issues for an otherwise solid machine:
1) The screen is only 13 inches which makes it so that I will probably use external displays unless I’m actively traveling
2) The webcam has no manual off switch... which would be nice.
1) The screen is only 13 inches which makes it so that I will probably use external displays unless I’m actively traveling
2) The webcam has no manual off switch... which would be nice.
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Dunno, I use mine (9550) for uni and I think it's small enough, fits perfectly on those atrociously small foldout tables in the lecture halls.
Only problem I have with it is that I dropped it once (or rather, I dropped myself, tripped over a low fence at decent speed, fell on my face, had just enough time to think 'glad my laptop is safely in my backpack' before my backpack flew over my head and into the pavement.)
The one screw post holding the case together in the top right corner around the hinge broke off, and the hinge has by now worked itself loose. Gotta replace the entire fibre-resin part and am having trouble finding replacement parts that don't have the exact same defect.
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hidpi support is a GNOME / GTK+ feature, not an Ubuntu feature (and its implementation had nothing to do with Canonical or Ubuntu, as it pre-dates Ubuntu's switch from Unity to GNOME); it will work just fine in GNOME 3 on *any* competent distro.
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There's no reason for it to be more fragile than the screen hinges or formerly ubiquitous disk trays.
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Like others, I had to read the article and comments for the mention of Killer WIFI, memory limits, and coil whine. On the subject of coil whine, on previous iterations there were people that did not report it, so I'm holding out on this model too.
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I understand LTS. That explains why they don't put out updates for Linux releases between LTS releases. That doesn't explain why they would wait to put out 18.04 support until they do a hardware refresh.
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This is also a dealbreaker for me. I tend to go in and out of a dock. Sometimes with the laptop awake. Sometimes when it is sleeping. Sometimes when VMs are running. Always going from multiple external monitors to the built-in screen and vice versa.
I need that to be pretty much flawless.
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Why would they? An investment to (potentially) win over a LOT more professional developers. And I'll spare the long-winded support for that statement.
Where else can you get this? Nowhere. And so, you DON'T see large organizations with internal development staffs making wholesale changeovers to their development platforms. Or, at least, not very many.
It's a chicken and egg problem. Dell is poised on the brink of pooping out the egg that could start the process. But, they haven't delivered enough, yet.
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Being pedantic would mean that you had some facts to share. In this case, that might somehow refute the statement he made. You didn't. That doesn't make you a pedant, but it does make you something else.
From 30+ years of experience doing it for a living, including working for very large software companies, to contract work for state and county governments, to starting and running my own software companies, my opinion is that his statement is absolutely true. MOST developers want about as much RAM as they can get. Especially when you're talking about laptops. Your single data point is an outlier and posting it does nothing whatsoever to invalid his statement.
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" I did throw some video rendering tasks at it using Blender, however, and the XPS 13 cranked through them with impressive ease."
That's exactly what I needed to know, thank you! I imagine if it handles complex renderings in Blender it will also handle slicing those images in Cura. Cheers!
That's exactly what I needed to know, thank you! I imagine if it handles complex renderings in Blender it will also handle slicing those images in Cura. Cheers!
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Cat Killer
Ars Praefectus
Project Sputnik is pretty much a one-man effort. That it happened at all its remarkable. That it's been such a success over many years is worth celebrating. Dell as a company are still broadly a Microsoft shop.
A model having the same software configuration throughout its lifetime is standard, and is desirable. Particularly if you are deploying many machines over a period of time.
If you want to use newer software with the hardware you buy you can either update it yourself, or wait for them to do it for you with the new model. They don't put any obstacles in your way, either way, and you have an image of the initial install if your upgrade goes sideways. Or buy from someone else, if they fit your needs better.
I'm not trying to persuade you to buy anything. I have a Skylake XPS 13. I like it. I think it came with 14.04. It's currently running 16.04 with Cinnamon. At some point I'll get round to updating it to 18.04. If it breaks I'll probably replace it with whatever that year's model is.
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First, I appreciate having a clam and rational conversation and not turning this into some kind of flame war.
Second, consider what you said here:
Now, imagine we're talking about a model XYZ that came out when Windows 8.1 was the standard. XYZ is still current and now Windows 10 comes out.
You're saying that it is not desirable for the OEM to start offering the XYZ model right away, with Windows 10, as soon as Windows 10 is available, or soon after?
Anyway, for Sputnik to be as successful as it is with only 1 person driving it, it seems like Dell would recognize the market potential that signifies and step up the commitment of resources to Sputnik. How long has the 9570/XPS 15 been out now? How long has 18.04 been out?
For the Linux platforms to have a real shot at cracking into the big time (i.e. widespread, wholesale Enterprise purchases FOR development staff), they have got to give better support than that. In my opinion, anyway.
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First, I appreciate having a calm and rational conversation and not turning this into some kind of flame war.
Second, consider what you said here:
Now, imagine we're talking about a model XYZ that came out when Windows 8.1 was the standard. XYZ is still current and now Windows 10 comes out.
You're saying that it is not desirable for the OEM to start offering the XYZ model right away, with Windows 10, as soon as Windows 10 is available, or soon after?
Anyway, for Sputnik to be as successful as it is with only 1 person driving it, it seems like Dell would recognize the market potential that signifies and step up the commitment of resources to Sputnik. How long has the 9570/XPS 15 been out now? How long has 18.04 been out?
For the Linux platforms to have a real shot at cracking into the big time (i.e. widespread, wholesale Enterprise purchases FOR development staff), they have got to give better support than that. In my opinion, anyway.
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That's sensible. I, on the other hand, got used to getting by with only the laptop itself and am pretty happy about it.
This is what gets me: there seems to be a notion of some sort of "colloquial developer" with nebulous assumptions which applies to no one in particular.
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Cat Killer
Ars Praefectus
For someone who wants to get work done? No, that is not desirable. You've tested and set up the work environment already. You don't want to have to retest on someone else's schedule before you can start to work.
Remember how desirable it was for companies to be able to downgrade their new computers that came with Windows 7 to Windows XP. You want the 6,238th machine to be exactly the same setup as the 6,237th, and, if it isn't, you'll spin up your standard image to make it the same. Having that consistency while still having security updates saves you that step.
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I just donated an 11 year old Dell laptop that came preinstalled with Ubuntu 6.10 - after reformatting it and putting 18.04 on it. Still worked just fine (just can't run VirtualBox). Can a 11 year old laptop even start Windows 10?
Edit: Dell has been shipping Ubuntu laptops since 2006 so I think their commitment to Linux is fine.
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I didn't have to have my own data to refute the assumption about "most developers". I simply pointed out that the author's claim was not supported by anything.
Is that pedantic enough?
And you're backing it up with your own data point of one. So we're now 2 vs. 1 which, again, doesn't prove anything.
What it does, is it advances the discussion in an absolutely useless direction.
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I didn't say you wouldn't still be able to order XYZ with Windows 8.1.
Dell does just this with their Windows machines for business. Windows 8 came out and you could order a machine with Windows 8 - OR you could order the same machine with Windows 7.
If they were treating Linux as seriously as Windows, and wanted to offer the same appeal to the IT department that (almost) always stands in the way of enterprise development groups getting what they want, Dell would do the same with Linux. I.e. In this particular case, they would offer a new XPS 15 or Precision 5530, with an option for 18.04 LTS or you could still order it with 16.04 LTS.
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My Dell Precision M6400 laptop is something like 9 or 10 years old and I believe it will run Windows 10 just fine. I can't say for SURE since I replaced Win 7 on it with Mint 18. But, it does run VMs of Windows 10 just fine, including working with all the onboard devices. My only REAL issue with it is that it only has 4 cores and it gets too slow when I'm trying to run multiple VMs at once that are each doing some somewhat moderate-to-heavy lifting.
What do you think has happened with Windows 10 that would make it NOT work?
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That 11 year old laptop had 2G of RAM. I believe that is the bare minimum for Win10 64. I was able to do everything in Ubuntu (including development), just not spin up VMs.
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I see I did not mention the issues that others had!
Coil whine: nope. Not a peep. I have heard coil whine in other laptops and it is bad when it happens.
WiFi: flawless. Or at least it was better than any other laptop I have around here (that covers Surface and a Macbook Pro).
Under both 16.04 and 18.04 I have to say that some things "just worked" that I did not expect. In particular suspending and resuming when the lid closes. It just works. Over and over and over ... It works more reliably than my wife's Surface suspends and resumes when the type cover is closed.
If I can figure out where to download it, I may grab Dell's 18.04 image and install fresh over my upgraded 16.04->18.04 image. Perhaps it is just on upgrade that things are a bit off? Still 18.04 seemed like a bit of a dog on other systems.
Coil whine: nope. Not a peep. I have heard coil whine in other laptops and it is bad when it happens.
WiFi: flawless. Or at least it was better than any other laptop I have around here (that covers Surface and a Macbook Pro).
Under both 16.04 and 18.04 I have to say that some things "just worked" that I did not expect. In particular suspending and resuming when the lid closes. It just works. Over and over and over ... It works more reliably than my wife's Surface suspends and resumes when the type cover is closed.
If I can figure out where to download it, I may grab Dell's 18.04 image and install fresh over my upgraded 16.04->18.04 image. Perhaps it is just on upgrade that things are a bit off? Still 18.04 seemed like a bit of a dog on other systems.
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Admittedly I am someone who can remember when 1 megabyte of memory was almost beyond the imagination. But, I still doubt that anyone but the most exceptional developer has any real need for more than 16 gigabytes of memory.
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Speaking of 'perfectly capable accessories', where's the Parallel Port for my perfectly capable printer? How am I supposed to plug-in my perfectly capable VGA monitor or listen to my perfectly capable CDs?
I'm glad to see all this criticism of USB-C and dongles, but we've been too soft on these tech companies for decades. The problem is bigger than USB-C!
I'm glad to see all this criticism of USB-C and dongles, but we've been too soft on these tech companies for decades. The problem is bigger than USB-C!
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I don't think it's an issue of the developer being exceptional. It just depends a lot on what kinds of projects the developer is working on. Some projects have bigger memory requirements than others.
Particularly if you're trying to put together a standalone environment that matches a production enterprise environment. Imagine running multiple Windows VMs, two that are each hosting instances of MS SQL Server (with multiple decent-sized DBs), another VM that is just hosting MS SQL Server Reporting Services,, another that is your actual dev machine running your IDE of choice. And you're running them all like that so that you can replicate a production config that uses SQL Linked Servers from one server instance to another, and replicate permissions inheritance issues that only really come up when you are distributing an application across so many different platforms.
How much memory do you think you might need to ensure decent performance in that environment?
I don't usually need that many simultaneous VMs, but I do usually want to have 2 running at the same time and sometimes 3. Thus, my desire for 6 cores and I'd rather have 32GB of RAM and not need it all than have 16GB and end up with some scenarios where only having 16 starts to impact overall performance.
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Another option is to get a ThinkPad and install your distro of choice on that. ThinkPads seem to be practically reference hardware for Linux. Everything works on most all distros.
I also recommend that people try Arch, or perhaps better yet (if installing Arch is intimidating) an Arch installer/Arch-based distribution like Antergos (or Reborn OS, which is an Antergos fork that enables very easy installation of a whole bunch of different desktop environments, including the very slick and lovely [but not without a couple of bugs] Deepin DE). The Arch User Repository is rad. No more adding PPAs as in Debian/Ubuntu distros -- everything is in the AUR, such that there are very, very few occasions to seek a Flatpak/Appimage/Snap package.
I also recommend that people try Arch, or perhaps better yet (if installing Arch is intimidating) an Arch installer/Arch-based distribution like Antergos (or Reborn OS, which is an Antergos fork that enables very easy installation of a whole bunch of different desktop environments, including the very slick and lovely [but not without a couple of bugs] Deepin DE). The Arch User Repository is rad. No more adding PPAs as in Debian/Ubuntu distros -- everything is in the AUR, such that there are very, very few occasions to seek a Flatpak/Appimage/Snap package.
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Statistical
Ars Legatus Legionis
because "KILLER" sounds so leet compared to boring old Intel. I mean that is the only thing I can think of because the performance of that line of wireless has a long history of being a turd.
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I would much prefer the laptop be thinner and lighter for mobile use, for all users, for the full lifespan of the laptop, and carry along small hub for all the functions I occasionally need to use. You can buy USB-C to all things hubs for as little as $40 and even more multi-port options including Ethernet for $60.
https://www.amazon.ca/LC-dolida-Type-Ad ... +usb+a+hub
If I just need a USB-A for a specific device or devices I use regularly, I would just add a cheap adapter to cables for as little as $5 each:
https://www.amazon.ca/Rankie-2-Pack-Ada ... a+to+usb+c
Hopefully in a few years, more devices and accessories ship with USB-C or Bluetooth support by default.
These are much better solutions than making everyone carry larger and heavier laptops to have all the ports all the people want.
In sum -- there are very cheap and easy solutions to a small problem.
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I really wish the fear mongering about Linux would stop. I have not had a laptop in the past decade that didn't work 100% with Linux. Agreed, some things didn't work right after install, and took 10 minutes or so of googling to find the solution, but it all worked after that.
And if you have a problem...google it...or you can ask me, and I will only charge $350 an hour to google it for you...You're welcome!
And if you have a problem...google it...or you can ask me, and I will only charge $350 an hour to google it for you...You're welcome!
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How is the trackpad compared to that of a MacBookPro? In terms of gesture navigation. Thanks
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Does Ubuntu/GNOME these days support separate scaling for multiple displays? (i.e. using say 100% for one monitor and 200% for another one)
I want to be able to put my laptop into a docking station and use the small display in addition to the larger monitor(s).
With Windows that setup works reasonably well these days (there's always some applications that have to do custom drawing and co that often screw up but hey), but I couldn't get it to work at all the last time I tried on Linux (which admittedly has been a while).
I want to be able to put my laptop into a docking station and use the small display in addition to the larger monitor(s).
With Windows that setup works reasonably well these days (there's always some applications that have to do custom drawing and co that often screw up but hey), but I couldn't get it to work at all the last time I tried on Linux (which admittedly has been a while).
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Abhi Beckert
Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
The problem with that is this laptop doesn't have a standard key layout. Some almost all of the left/right/top/bottom edge keys aren't full size, and even worse a few have been shifted over screwing up not only their location but the ones around them.
The only way to touch type on this keyboard is if it's the only one you ever use. Which means not using a laptop stand — better to use an external display and the laptop's built in keyboard.
The layout of any laptop keyboard is critical.
I suppose as an office user, you'd get away with it since the alphabetic keys are all in the right location. But this is a developer's laptop, and they use the symbol/function/modifier keys constantly.
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