Dead babies, critically ill kids: Pediatricians make moving plea for vaccines

"I remember holding a baby dying of complications of pneumococcal meningitis."

See full article...

 

[dobrien75]

Pretty sure they sold billions of gallons of leaded petrol; mere numbers do not mean something has no side effects. Vaccines prevent many more deaths than injuries they cause. I can still see my smallpox vaccine scar nearly 50 years later.

Besides not every vaccine is identical, Vaccines in the US generally have pretty good quality control, others not so much.

False equivalence.

Leaded petrol isn't a medical technology

thalidomide is a better comparison, which lead to massive improvements to medical tech testing and approval, including vaccines

 

[SixDegrees]

False equivalence.

Leaded petrol isn't a medical technology

thalidomide is a better comparison, which lead to massive improvements to medical tech testing and approval, including vaccines

Also, elimination of lead from gasoline was based on observable evidence. There is no analogous evidence of harm observed for vaccines, which as noted has multiple billions of doses with extensive follow-up monitoring that don't turn up any systemic harm.

 

[Sjoerd Verweij]

Besides not every vaccine is identical, Vaccines in the US generally have pretty good quality control, others not so much.

Ah yes, a delightful sprinkling of US exceptionalism veneer over an undoubtedly heaping helping of xenophobia and racism.

Somone's about to have an absolute stroke if they ever look into where 80-90% of their medications are made...

 

[balthazarr]

Pretty sure they sold billions of gallons of leaded petrol; mere numbers do not mean something has no side effects. Vaccines prevent many more deaths than injuries they cause. I can still see my smallpox vaccine scar nearly 50 years later.

Besides not every vaccine is identical, Vaccines in the US generally have pretty good quality control, others not so much.

I've bolded the most salient line.

No medicine is, or can be, 100% safe and/or effective. Everyone is different and will react differently - some will even have severe allergic reactions and die.

The point is, severe adverse effects (and not minor things like localised pain and swelling at the injection point) are exceedingly rare, and the lives and suffering saved are many, many orders of magnitude more. There probably is no greater/effective/safe medical intervention anywhere ever.

Even "simple" over the counter things like paracetamol (Tylenol, I think is a brand name in the US?) - injure and kill many people each year, but the anti-vax nutters probably wouldn't think twice about popping a couple of them to alleviate their headache.

On any cost/benefit analysis - vaccines blow anything else out of the water.

 

[sjl]

Many countries already do. Most of the smaller Asian countries like Vietnam and Thailand require malaria vaccination, Australia requires yellow fever vaccine.

To clarify the last.

You are required to have an international vaccination certificate to enter Australia if, within six days before arriving in/returning to Australia, you have stayed overnight or longer in a declared yellow fever infected country. Furthermore, if you don't have the certificate, you're not necessarily prevented from entering - you're just subject to a bunch of biosecurity processes (it's not clear what those might be, but it could be things like mandatory quarantine for a couple of weeks.)

It isn't a blanket requirement, in other words - it's simply a precautionary measure to stop it from coming into the country (as one of the mosquito species that can spread the disease is very common in northern Queensland.)

 

[David Mayer]

I apologize for offending you or anyone else by using that term. I honestly did not know.

"High needs" will take some serious getting used to, but I will strive to do better. Should I stray in the future, please, correct me with extreme prejudice and/or utter ridicule (whichever you prefer).

Besides my high-needs cousin, I had another, high-functioning, cousin who last year got fixated on taking OTC medication and died because if it. He was 25 years old. So yes, this is kind of personal to me. Stigmatizing and othering autistic children, and having the parents focus on falsely blaming vaccines rather than taking care of their child -- it is beyond disgusting. Haha, sure, RFK might be in it for the grift, but how does that matter? Thousands and thousands of children are being hurt, and hundreds have died because of it. He is absolute, utter, proven pond scum. He is arguably responsible for more children dying than Mengele, and we are supposed to treat this piece of shit as an actual human being and let him speak in our legislative chambers?

I honestly did not know.

That's usually the case, which is why I'm generally gentle when addressing the issue.

"High needs" will take some serious getting used to, but I will strive to do better.

Non organic changes to language are hard, I won't blame you for failing while trying.

Should I stray in the future, please, correct me with extreme prejudice and/or utter ridicule (whichever you prefer).

Naw, I'm gonna stick to my gentle approach.

high-functioning, cousin

Low needs cousin.

Edit: To anyone reading this,the post has been updated to take into account my last comment. Awesome!

 

[Cherlindrea]

The planet is on fucking fire but vaccines are attacked all because a subset of the population is insanely insecure about their intelligence and have thus rearranged their entire identity and purpose of existence around conspiracy theories which make them feel smart.

That's literally it. That's the root cause: people feeling like they're "dumb" and desperately needing to feel "smart."

Equating smart to good, useful, valuable, is the biggest sin of our entire species across all cultures and time. It drives an absurd amount of irrational behavior. We are a social species and people want to feel valuable and want to belong. We literally judge the ethics of eating animals on how smart the animals are. It's no surprise some people spend their entire lives basically constantly soothing their insecurity around this one aspect of their existence.

The best part? No one even has a useful definition of what "intelligence" even is. We obsess over how "smart" we want to be but can't even fucking define what that means. Not really.

You're not wrong on your rant, but you are tangentially misplaced on it. Republicans have spent a bare minimum of half a century fighting education and equating a lack of education to "real America" and patriotism. Education is considered out of touch (hence the "out of touch liberals" at universities).

So this insanity isn't born out of insecurity about their own intelligence levels. It's born largely out of resentment or outright hatred of those who do have the intelligence to understand it. Virology isn't easy or intuitive. I'd posit that the average intelligence level of the Ars community is anywhere from above to way above national average. So while "people died from measles and polio" makes perfect sense to us and we don't need to understand all the nuances of the viruses, their contagion levels, or the detailed mechanics of the vaccines, we at least get the big strokes.

But it's easy to forget that there are a lot of people out there that do not get these basics. I have plenty of redneck family that fall into this category. I'm the first of my generation to go to and graduate university. My father was the only of his generation to do the same. Our family loves us, but they get a distrustful or sometimes just a smarmy patronizing look when we try to explain any scientific information to them (and we're careful not to talk down, just make laymen-available). It's a problem. If something sounds too intellectual, they'll start to distrust or even hate it.

Now add into the mix a down-homesy talking head who uses small words and emotive phrasing to immediately appeal to their distrust or stoke their hatred of the intellectual stuff they don't get, and they flock to it like drowning men to lifeboats. Their hatred and distrust has been verified! They can stick it to the intellectuals finally!

And their kids get to die because of it. That's the sum of our parts in this current situation.

 

[Faceless Man]

To clarify the last.

You are required to have an international vaccination certificate to enter Australia if, within six days before arriving in/returning to Australia, you have stayed overnight or longer in a declared yellow fever infected country. Furthermore, if you don't have the certificate, you're not necessarily prevented from entering - you're just subject to a bunch of biosecurity processes (it's not clear what those might be, but it could be things like mandatory quarantine for a couple of weeks.)

It isn't a blanket requirement, in other words - it's simply a precautionary measure to stop it from coming into the country (as one of the mosquito species that can spread the disease is very common in northern Queensland.)

Hey, at least they don't walk up and down the aisles of the plane spraying disinfectant any more.

I've not needed a vaccination certificate to come home since I went on a school trip to Indonesia and Singapore back in the 80s. And that includes the time I stopped in Singapore for a couple of days on the way back from Europe and the US.

 

[RickVS]

I think it would be effective to see commercials on TV of parents bemoaning their children's deaths due to a lack of vaccination. Forget the professional testimonials. I think seeing real pain would be more persuasive.

 

[balthazarr]

I think it would be effective to see commercials on TV of parents bemoaning their children's deaths due to a lack of vaccination. Forget the professional testimonials. I think seeing real pain would be more persuasive.

Nah, they're just crisis actors, remember?

 

[The Sheep Look Up]

Nah, they're just crisis actors, remember?

My vision just went a little red around the edges. Thanks for that trip down suppressed memory lane.

 

[ispshadow]

There is a strain of conspiratorial thinking that reacts to this with suspicion. "Why do they want us to take these shots so badly?" they ask.
Tell them that it's so that people don't get sick and die and they brush it off as obviously implausible.

I really wonder if such thinking isn't some kind of trait of narcissism or sociopathy, just an inability to believe that someone or ones simply don't want people to suffer and die needlessly.

It's because a portion of our population doesn't understand just wanting to help others without expecting something in return. If it isn't transactional somehow, or with someone losing in the exchange, it's suspicious to them.

Because that's how they treat others.

 

[Faceless Man]

It's because a portion of our population doesn't understand just wanting to help others without expecting something in return. If it isn't transactional somehow, or with someone losing in the exchange, it's suspicious to them.

Because that's how they treat others.

This is how you get op-eds talking about "The sin of empathy". Because the central tenet of Christianity is every man for himself.

 

[The Sheep Look Up]

This is how you get op-eds talking about "The sin of empathy".

I both want to see this and want to bash my brain in with a brick if it's real.

 

[Faceless Man]

I both want to see this and want to bash my brain in with a brick if it's real.

I may have been mistaken about it being an op-ed. It seems it might have been a Twitter comment that got some press in other people's op-eds.

But it seems there are actual "Christians" who talk of empathy being a sin, in some way. Which is kind of worrying, when you consider that Jesus was all about empathy, along with compassion, and all that other hippy crap.

 

[Ngita]

On any cost/benefit analysis - vaccines blow anything else out of the water.

No disagreement on that.

Some of the vaccines that are not made using live viruses in the us, are made using live viruses in other countries.

It's not racist to talk about contaminates, it's an issue.

https://orbi.uliege.be/bitstream/2268/241544/1/20191121105647525.pdf.

I believe a small population in Aus had a contaminated batch,an investigation was performed no damage was identified they decided to re-check at age 60. At age 60 not a single person was alive.

So re-iterate, vaccines are generally a good thing, that where possible to achieve herd immunity efforts should be made to achieve it.

But vaccine side effects do exist it's just that some need to realise that sorry that few people who suffered vaccine side effects do not outweigh all the people who it saved. On the other hand if you feel you should force vaccines on people when herd immunity can not be achieved you can go jump in the lake.

Maybe I am triggered because someone was raising a hue and cry that we should be vaccinating for Marburg.

 

[blonderon]

It's just a troll. I vote we don't give it any more oxygen.

Edit: found the quote I was after, by David Gemmell from the book 'Dark Prince':


All it's doing is yapping...

emotion precedes rigor and logic.

 

[squid_whisperer]

Nah, it's insulting to "low-functioning" autistics as well. It says they'd be better off dead. Given the hypothetical risk of autism caused by vaccines versus the very real risk of dying from preventable illness, it's much more likely that they'll die if unvaccinated than they'll develop autism if vaccinated. (I mean, in reality, vaccines don't cause autism, so there's always the possibility that they'll do both if unvaccinated.)

No, that's not true. Not vaccinating your kids does not guarantee death, it just makes it more likely. It's like saying "driving your kids in a car bears some chances of causing autism". Probably most people would continue to drive their kids and take the risk. And some wouldn't.

Of course with vaccines, you also risk your community by not vaccinating. Which complicates things a lot.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

I think it would be effective to see commercials on TV of parents bemoaning their children's deaths due to a lack of vaccination. Forget the professional testimonials. I think seeing real pain would be more persuasive.

Weirdly, I don't. I think they'd still not get it. They just assume that those parents hadn't given their kids the right horse paste, or magnetic collars, or quartz dust or whatever. And then when their kids die from something easily preventable they'll find someone else to blame.

I genuinely don't know how you can reach some of these.

 

[DC]

I'm going to try to be patient with you as I understand that you've probably dealt with a lot and there is a ton of bad information out there that you've clearly been exposed to. I'm going to try and lay out the many issues with your post as non judgmentally as I can, please forgive me if I come across as combative or insulting, that is not my intent.

Oof... the low empathy post was not a surprise, but it did grate.

Autism is a broad spectrum, most Autistic persons (for a better monicker) have several issues, ranging from low IQ (the majority, aka low functioning), fobia's, mental issues, physical isues etc. It's seldom just one thing.

Labels like high/low functioning are problematic for such a huge spectrum, but the visible people with autism are indeed high-functioning, whereas the majority of the people in this spectrum do not participate in mainstream society. You will not meet them at school, workplace, social gathering or online. Like many people with disabilities, especially those with mental impairments, they are hidden, even for someone as you.

The whole deal with someone like you and most others we actually meet and see is that indeed, you are high functioning, an IQ over 100. Why is that IQ so incredibly important? Because the whole communication process is hampered in varying degrees for these individuals, nothing comes naturally or is easy. Bluntly put, they need horsepower in the logic department to train themselves the finesses of interpersonal contact, instead of taking everything at face value.

And to make that even a bigger challenge, they need to be able to self-regulate as a toddler, in their formative years. Because whereas for the average person communicating and socialising is an unconcious effort, some in the autistci spectrum needs to figure it out, even though they are a toddler without any experience. A gargantuan and heroic task indeed, no matter the help of parents and therapists.

The majority of autists not only lacks the capability to compensate, this is compounded with other issues, both mental and physical. The window for learning how to effectively communicate is narrow and a deficit has lasting effect. Not being able to learn to speak and form words is destructive on any learning capability.

In the extreme spectrum: A kid that can not talk and cataconic stares at a revolving washingmachine might indeed never learn to communicate. This is heartbreaking. Suggesting the parent is insulting said kid and just needs to learn to communicate by other means is incredible. Also, time is a constraint), but just as certain I will never jump over 2 metres, these people will cap out at a certain level, no matter how much time you spend with them. This is not the problem of parents labeling their kid Low-Functioning. This is a result of their condition. No blame to adress and no reason to suggest "try harder" guilt tripping.

In the less extreme situations, a healthy person in the autistic spectrum with a sub 100 IQ is bombarded with situations he/she can not process. Extreme fears and/or agression are an ongoing issue for the majority in the spectrum, but not having the means to learn and adjust is extremely impairing the ability to function independently.

The distinction between the minority of visible cases and the majority of invisible cases is stark.

Lastly, the problems for parents with agressive children in the mental spectrum is very real. Even with a truckload of love and good intentions sometimes things do not improve, due to nobody's fault. Stating these tragic cases is in no way denying these childrens a right to life. You are doing these desperate parents a huge disservice by suggesting they do not love their children. I understand empathy might be something you are struggling with, but in my eyes you went out of line quite hard in your reply.

 

[Auie]

"Bobby preys on the desperation of parents of sick children, vaccinating his own kids, while building a following hypocritically discouraging other parents from vaccinating theirs."

-Caroline Kennedy, cousin to RFK Jr.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi...is-a-predator-in-a-warning-letter-to-senators

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ympKsaKRArU

 

[theSeb]

You're not wrong on your rant, but you are tangentially misplaced on it. Republicans have spent a bare minimum of half a century fighting education and equating a lack of education to "real America" and patriotism. Education is considered out of touch (hence the "out of touch liberals" at universities).

So this insanity isn't born out of insecurity about their own intelligence levels. It's born largely out of resentment or outright hatred of those who do have the intelligence to understand it. Virology isn't easy or intuitive. I'd posit that the average intelligence level of the Ars community is anywhere from above to way above national average. So while "people died from measles and polio" makes perfect sense to us and we don't need to understand all the nuances of the viruses, their contagion levels, or the detailed mechanics of the vaccines, we at least get the big strokes.

But it's easy to forget that there are a lot of people out there that do not get these basics. I have plenty of redneck family that fall into this category. I'm the first of my generation to go to and graduate university. My father was the only of his generation to do the same. Our family loves us, but they get a distrustful or sometimes just a smarmy patronizing look when we try to explain any scientific information to them (and we're careful not to talk down, just make laymen-available). It's a problem. If something sounds too intellectual, they'll start to distrust or even hate it.

Now add into the mix a down-homesy talking head who uses small words and emotive phrasing to immediately appeal to their distrust or stoke their hatred of the intellectual stuff they don't get, and they flock to it like drowning men to lifeboats. Their hatred and distrust has been verified! They can stick it to the intellectuals finally!

And their kids get to die because of it. That's the sum of our parts in this current situation.

American fear of intellectualism goes back further than half a century at this point. For those who haven't yet, I would suggest reading up on the John Birch Society. The links to the Koch brothers, the shit they've been pulling in the background, the youth education camps (project freedom education). They are one of the biggest reasons behind why American politics are where they are today and the fight against higher education is only going to be amplified by the current regime.

 

[spartan56]

The longer I live, the more I've learned just how much most of our species likes to learn its lessons the hard way. We really aren't half as smart as we'd like to think we are and half of us are even dumber than that.

Quite frankly I'm not sure there is any real "learning" going on.

I'm more and more convinced that the whatever percentage of society (a small amount, much less than a majority) drags the dumb majority along with it to an actual better standard of living. That dumb majority never really realized where all the good came from and just accepts things as they are once they're in place.

 

[FinallyAnAccount]

The word "just" in that sentence is doing more lifting than a SpaceX Super Heavy.

There is a great more I could say about that comment, but it would likely earn me a ban from Ars.

Whatever misremembering or paraphrasing I've done, I'll never forget the "just." As you would just have Pepsi, when they don't have Coke. As you would just put something in the mail tomorrow. As you would just carry the seed of a rapist in your womb to term to give it up at birth.

Unbelievable.

I just... the response is "I hope something awful happens to you just until you're pregnant. Oh, you're male? Still though."

 

[Tofystedeth]

No disagreement on that.

Some of the vaccines that are not made using live viruses in the us, are made using live viruses in other countries.

It's not racist to talk about contaminates, it's an issue.

https://orbi.uliege.be/bitstream/2268/241544/1/20191121105647525.pdf.

I believe a small population in Aus had a contaminated batch,an investigation was performed no damage was identified they decided to re-check at age 60. At age 60 not a single person was alive.

So re-iterate, vaccines are generally a good thing, that where possible to achieve herd immunity efforts should be made to achieve it.

But vaccine side effects do exist it's just that some need to realise that sorry that few people who suffered vaccine side effects do not outweigh all the people who it saved. On the other hand if you feel you should force vaccines on people when herd immunity can not be achieved you can go jump in the lake.

Maybe I am triggered because someone was raising a hue and cry that we should be vaccinating for Marburg.

As far as I can tell you were the first person to bring up Marburg in the thread.

 

[Ravant]

Your scare tactics dredged up a story from more than 30 fuckin' years ago Beth.

This is bullshit scare tactics used to give the US Federal Government more power over states. Lets not fucking pretend this is anything else.

35 fucking years ago is not fucking recent.

FUCK. You make me so angry Beth. This is straight up propaganda, and you BETH are straight up responsible for it.

You know why it was 35 years ago?

Vaccines.
Fucking.
Work.

Surprise, motherfucker!

No, seriously. The whole POINT of bringing up a story from that long ago is to show 1) the efficacy of vaccines in reducing those types of situations, and 2) to show what we'll be returning to without said vaccines. Fuck, keep vaccines away long enough and well go back 95 years to the fucking iron lung. Sound like a good plan to you, buddy ol' pal?

FUCK. You make me so angry, imchillyb. You've straight up ignored facts to be a pro-plaguer, and you, IMCHILLYB, will straight-up responsible for the deaths your pro-plague stance will ultimately bring about.

 

[Pdooley]

Yeah. For people who already have made up their minds to support RFK's (gag) viewpoint, the only thing I see potentially changing minds is watching children in their own social circle die. Not hearing about other people's children; not knowing about hundreds or thousands of preventable deaths, illnesses, and disabilities.

They want to win. They've decided this is one of their causes, and science and rational thought are markers of the enemy.

I am terribly sorry for kids who will suffer from this. But I'm no longer sorry for the parents, grandparents, or aunts or uncles who voted for this and (I'm afraid) will ultimately be horrified at what results.

The problem is that when the unvaccinated kids get measles, they spread it around.

 

[David Mayer]

Oof... the low empathy post was not a surprise, but it did grate.

Autism is a broad spectrum, most Autistic persons (for a better monicker) have several issues, ranging from low IQ (the majority, aka low functioning), fobia's, mental issues, physical isues etc. It's seldom just one thing.

Labels like high/low functioning are problematic for such a huge spectrum, but the visible people with autism are indeed high-functioning, whereas the majority of the people in this spectrum do not participate in mainstream society. You will not meet them at school, workplace, social gathering or online. Like many people with disabilities, especially those with mental impairments, they are hidden, even for someone as you.

The whole deal with someone like you and most others we actually meet and see is that indeed, you are high functioning, an IQ over 100. Why is that IQ so incredibly important? Because the whole communication process is hampered in varying degrees for these individuals, nothing comes naturally or is easy. Bluntly put, they need horsepower in the logic department to train themselves the finesses of interpersonal contact, instead of taking everything at face value.

And to make that even a bigger challenge, they need to be able to self-regulate as a toddler, in their formative years. Because whereas for the average person communicating and socialising is an unconcious effort, some in the autistci spectrum needs to figure it out, even though they are a toddler without any experience. A gargantuan and heroic task indeed, no matter the help of parents and therapists.

The majority of autists not only lacks the capability to compensate, this is compounded with other issues, both mental and physical. The window for learning how to effectively communicate is narrow and a deficit has lasting effect. Not being able to learn to speak and form words is destructive on any learning capability.

In the extreme spectrum: A kid that can not talk and cataconic stares at a revolving washingmachine might indeed never learn to communicate. This is heartbreaking. Suggesting the parent is insulting said kid and just needs to learn to communicate by other means is incredible. Also, time is a constraint), but just as certain I will never jump over 2 metres, these people will cap out at a certain level, no matter how much time you spend with them. This is not the problem of parents labeling their kid Low-Functioning. This is a result of their condition. No blame to adress and no reason to suggest "try harder" guilt tripping.

In the less extreme situations, a healthy person in the autistic spectrum with a sub 100 IQ is bombarded with situations he/she can not process. Extreme fears and/or agression are an ongoing issue for the majority in the spectrum, but not having the means to learn and adjust is extremely impairing the ability to function independently.

The distinction between the minority of visible cases and the majority of invisible cases is stark.

Lastly, the problems for parents with agressive children in the mental spectrum is very real. Even with a truckload of love and good intentions sometimes things do not improve, due to nobody's fault. Stating these tragic cases is in no way denying these childrens a right to life. You are doing these desperate parents a huge disservice by suggesting they do not love their children. I understand empathy might be something you are struggling with, but in my eyes you went out of line quite hard in your reply.

How can I reasonably be expected to engage in good faith with what you have to say when you repeatedly used multiple different words and language that I explicitly stated (in the very post you're quoting) are deeply and profoundly offensive to me and to which I provided suitable alternatives?

 

[Faceless Man]

Yeah. For people who already have made up their minds to support RFK's (gag) viewpoint, the only thing I see potentially changing minds is watching children in their own social circle die. Not hearing about other people's children; not knowing about hundreds or thousands of preventable deaths, illnesses, and disabilities.

They want to win. They've decided this is one of their causes, and science and rational thought are markers of the enemy.

I am terribly sorry for kids who will suffer from this. But I'm no longer sorry for the parents, grandparents, or aunts or uncles who voted for this and (I'm afraid) will ultimately be horrified at what results.

I don't think watching the children of friends, acquaintances, or people they know will be enough. Some of them will just see it as an acceptable cost to keep their children safe from the Autism boogeyman. Others just won't care because it's not them.

Hell, I'm not convinced watching their own children die will be enough. The mindset is such that they'll blame someone or something else for it. It's not that they were unvaccinated, it will be deliberate action by the government, or a foreign power, or liberals, or something.

 

[graylshaped]

No, that's not true. Not vaccinating your kids does not guarantee death, it just makes it more likely. It's like saying "driving your kids in a car bears some chances of causing autism". Probably most people would continue to drive their kids and take the risk. And some wouldn't.

Of course with vaccines, you also risk your community by not vaccinating. Which complicates things a lot.

Suggestion: the better simile is "It's like saying 'driving your kids in a car carries a risk that has nothing to do with autism.'"

Period. There is no established correlation between vaccines (or driving in a car) and autism. Not "some chance of causing."

No correlation. Don't play the game on the deniers' terms.

 

[Faceless Man]

No, that's not true. Not vaccinating your kids does not guarantee death, it just makes it more likely. It's like saying "driving your kids in a car bears some chances of causing autism". Probably most people would continue to drive their kids and take the risk. And some wouldn't.

Of course with vaccines, you also risk your community by not vaccinating. Which complicates things a lot.

Even they, or most of them, will admit that vaccination doesn't guarantee autism. The question is the comparable risk. Even with the most absurd claims of the anti-vaxx crowd, I believe the risk of dying from measles or rubella is still higher for someone who's unvaccinated. So they are saying that they'd rather risk their children dying than having a live child who might be autistic.

 

[JoHBE]

My vision just went a little red around the edges. Thanks for that trip down suppressed memory lane.

Let's make the blood bleed out of both your eyes by reminding you who felt the need to support Alex Jones by interfering in the sale of his imperium

Cockroaches, all of them.

 

[JoHBE]

Hell, I'm not convinced watching their own children die will be enough. The mindset is such that they'll blame someone or something else for it. It's not that they were unvaccinated, it will be deliberate action by the government, or a foreign power, or liberals, or something.

Might well be what happens. But to be fair, it would not be cruelty and indifference, but inability to face the reality that THEY are the ultimate root cause of their children's death. Every drop of cognitive energy will go into shifting that blame.

 

[gnasher729]

No, that's not true. Not vaccinating your kids does not guarantee death, it just makes it more likely. It's like saying "driving your kids in a car bears some chances of causing autism". Probably most people would continue to drive their kids and take the risk. And some wouldn't.

Of course with vaccines, you also risk your community by not vaccinating. Which complicates things a lot.

Right now there are still so many kids vaccinated that unvaccinated ones (and those where the vaccine didn’t work) get away with it, most of the time. As long as the R factor is less than 1, the virus cannot multiply. Once you go just from 0.9 to 1.1, it will catch anyone say in a school who wasnt vaccinated. That’s the point where not vaccinating can kill your child.

 

[Zeppos]

Yes, but here we have to drink next to the non-drinking disease ridden horses.

Still can't make it drink. We'll just have to cope. Sucks.

 

[Ngita]

As far as I can tell you were the first person to bring up Marburg in the thread.

Not here.

so I read the article about how nasty Marburg is and that we should vaccinate, then I read this.

Many here seem to regard vaccines as perfect. That they never cause injuries and should always be used.

I have had 2 serious flu's in the last 30 years, I am not routinely around elderly people and I dont regard the flu as life threatening at my current age and state of health, in 30 years if I am still alive I will be taking the flu vaccine yearly. But for now I dont take it.

 

[SixDegrees]

Not here.

so I read the article about how nasty Marburg is and that we should vaccinate, then I read this.

Many here seem to regard vaccines as perfect. That they never cause injuries and should always be used.

I have had 2 serious flu's in the last 30 years, I am not routinely around elderly people and I dont regard the flu as life threatening at my current age and state of health, in 30 years if I am still alive I will be taking the flu vaccine yearly. But for now I dont take it.

So you're just a spreader.

 

[Deleted member 388703]

When FOIAed, the FDA could not produce a single clinical trial that pitted a new vaccine against an inert placebo, like saline.

You say "The doctors did no evil" like you imagine that's supposed to be a bad thing.

 

[David Mayer]

Still can't make it drink. We'll just have to cope. Sucks.

There is precedent for compelled vaccination, and I'm not convinced by those who say that such a policy is incompatible with a society that values freedom. I think freedom to live with reduced fear of disease outweighs freedom from compelled vaccination.