It may be that all of us have a little psychopathology inside—with some positives.
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Could there be upsides to being a psychopath?
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Nah fuck all that. There are plenty of 'successful' psycopaths and ... theyre ruined twitter, reddit, etc, etc, et al.
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I'd say, keep it simple. Psychopathy is inherently linked to a lack of empathy. High functioning psychopaths include GOP congress critters and corporate executives cutting down the rain forest or building coal thermal power plants. Psychopaths lacking all emotional controls are the rapsists and serial killers ----- and sometimes they're both; ie. see the Gilgo Beach Serial killer --- a high functioning wallstreet architect family man; with a hobby of killing escorts.
I can see this type of research leading to a dystopia-type situation, much like in The Expanse, where the evil corporation lobotomized scientists, removing their emotion and empathy, thereby allowing them to continue highly unethical research and committing genocide.
I can see this type of research leading to a dystopia-type situation, much like in The Expanse, where the evil corporation lobotomized scientists, removing their emotion and empathy, thereby allowing them to continue highly unethical research and committing genocide.
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I suppose it makes sense. Some psychopathy is necessary to fight for your own survival, and even the survival of the tribe (or business) because someone has to do the "mean" things no one wants to do (fire underperformers). But too much psychopathy gets you banished from the tribe.
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Ok, but this is more than a little tone deaf considering the 'successful' psychopaths are literally destroying the planet right now.
It seems even otherwise very intelligent psychologists have no idea how close we are to complete annihilation and why. The basic food chain itself is being disrupted and people are already dying. The world is on fire.
It seems even otherwise very intelligent psychologists have no idea how close we are to complete annihilation and why. The basic food chain itself is being disrupted and people are already dying. The world is on fire.
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What's interesting to me are those who are kinda reported to be both like ruthless, cynical business man and loving, caring family man. Are they psychopaths with a good disguise? Or are they people with empathy but the ability to shut down/disassociate from those feelings?
I mean we know we train people in the military, emergency response, intensive care etc. to suppress their feelings and get the job done and deal with the trauma response later. I wonder if you can use some variation of that as an executive, I know this decision will be shitty for my employees but I don't wanna care, so I'm shutting that out and doing it anyway. And then dealing with any residual guilt like people in anger management classes deal with their anger. A million dollars pays a lot of therapy...
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As someone who has been diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder: Psychopathy by actual doctors, not Internet tests and a desire for on-line attention, I can answer the question succinctly: No. Not a single fucking upside. I have impulsivity problems that take a ton of energy to control so much so that they wear me out by noon on most days. I have an IQ tested out over 180 which gets eaten up by all the energy it takes not act on impulses (almost all violent) and/or spent formulating plans for revenge. Relationships are punishing to those who love me and I almost never leave the house so as to not be put in situations where I will wind up arrested or dead (driving is out of the question, way too many fucking idiots I would rather see punished and/or killed rather than keeping myself safe.) Phone calls, tv shows, movies and media enrage me all the time which spikes adrenaline, shoots up blood pressure and has me in fight or fight response multiple times a day (flight never even occurs to me when enraged). So I am going to die a lot earlier than neurotypicals on average because every organ is stressed continually. I break every tool I touch and injure myself multiple times a week (burns, cuts, occasionally breaks, etc) because I think the body is a tool that should perform like I want, not as it does.
This diagnosis was done by a psychiatrist who within 5 minutes said "I have never met a psychopath outside of prison." Said those words in a happy excited way, like I was some sort of fucking gift from the gods of insanity to make his day a little brighter. I do not think the diagnosis is correct, and since I have multiple others to choose from, whose various symptoms, like everything in the DSM-V, can be arranged and rearranged to give whatever diagnosis the doctor thinks will bring in the most recurring revenue from treatment (there are no drugs or treatments for antisocial personality disorder in adults) I mostly like to think the lack of empathy comes from Autistic spectrum disorder, the hyperinflated sense of justice from Bipolar and the hatred for humanity comes from having met humans. Seeing them as objects to be manipulated...Narcissism maybe.
Because mental health is still terrible in the US, barely attaining the levels of trepanation, and thoroughly misunderstood, I would argue almost all things we currently label mental illnesses have species survival value as well as being responsible for almost all creative jumps humanity has made. When you ask "Could they have an upside" you are asking the wrong question. People with mania and some other illnesses might, for certain periods of time, agree they are experiencing an upside. But ultimately the person who has the non-neurotypical brain structure is not going to have a fun, content, satisfied, long life. The upside is for the species. For being the embodiment of a Minority Report or The 10th Man, the people who actually have mental illness, especially ones that interrupt norms of behavior like Antisocial Personality Disorder, are going to die a lot more quickly, and probably more violently.
This diagnosis was done by a psychiatrist who within 5 minutes said "I have never met a psychopath outside of prison." Said those words in a happy excited way, like I was some sort of fucking gift from the gods of insanity to make his day a little brighter. I do not think the diagnosis is correct, and since I have multiple others to choose from, whose various symptoms, like everything in the DSM-V, can be arranged and rearranged to give whatever diagnosis the doctor thinks will bring in the most recurring revenue from treatment (there are no drugs or treatments for antisocial personality disorder in adults) I mostly like to think the lack of empathy comes from Autistic spectrum disorder, the hyperinflated sense of justice from Bipolar and the hatred for humanity comes from having met humans. Seeing them as objects to be manipulated...Narcissism maybe.
Because mental health is still terrible in the US, barely attaining the levels of trepanation, and thoroughly misunderstood, I would argue almost all things we currently label mental illnesses have species survival value as well as being responsible for almost all creative jumps humanity has made. When you ask "Could they have an upside" you are asking the wrong question. People with mania and some other illnesses might, for certain periods of time, agree they are experiencing an upside. But ultimately the person who has the non-neurotypical brain structure is not going to have a fun, content, satisfied, long life. The upside is for the species. For being the embodiment of a Minority Report or The 10th Man, the people who actually have mental illness, especially ones that interrupt norms of behavior like Antisocial Personality Disorder, are going to die a lot more quickly, and probably more violently.
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I´d argue that "business-successful" psychopaths are as much or more dangerous for people than "skilled-with-a-knife" psychopaths. They may be smart enough to conform to, use, bend, or evade the law but they sure destroy lives in the thousands.
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The fantastic author Peter Watts explores the theoretical upsides of various type of mental illness (and other more extreme fictional states) in his book series of βehemoth* and Blindsight.
edit: *Rifters series
edit: *Rifters series
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"Dishonest, amoral people can succeed" and "being a dishonest, amoral person is a good thing" seem like two very different claims here.
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I struggle with my understanding of a lot of the "soft" sciences like this because they are so often based on third-party observation or indirect examples. Especially since the legacy of the entire profession is rooted in patriarchal, often parochial judgement. Like this passage:
I follow where the examples of meanness and disinhibition would be psychopathic traits. The boldness example doesn't quite line up with my own perception of what makes someone bold--I'd call it ego or confidence rather than boldness, which I associate more with risk taking, but maybe that's just semantics.
How are rule-breaking and drug-taking "antisocial behaviors"? Those behaviors may be correlated with people who are antisocial or people who are psychopathic, but in and of themselves they are not antisocial behaviors. Perhaps this is me being linguistically pedantic (again), but it seems wrong to assign individual behaviors to a singular psychological category--unlike the trait examples in the prior paragraph, which were beliefs and feelings. After all, if it's a spectrum, them no behavior or act is exclusive to that psycholigical label. Even aggression is not exclusively antisocial depending on the context in which it is being discussed.
I follow where the examples of meanness and disinhibition would be psychopathic traits. The boldness example doesn't quite line up with my own perception of what makes someone bold--I'd call it ego or confidence rather than boldness, which I associate more with risk taking, but maybe that's just semantics.
How are rule-breaking and drug-taking "antisocial behaviors"? Those behaviors may be correlated with people who are antisocial or people who are psychopathic, but in and of themselves they are not antisocial behaviors. Perhaps this is me being linguistically pedantic (again), but it seems wrong to assign individual behaviors to a singular psychological category--unlike the trait examples in the prior paragraph, which were beliefs and feelings. After all, if it's a spectrum, them no behavior or act is exclusive to that psycholigical label. Even aggression is not exclusively antisocial depending on the context in which it is being discussed.
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I think this is an example of a trap that people who are in too deep are especially susceptible to falling in to. Sure, from a purely dispassionate perspective the shades and scales of psychopathy are probably interesting, but…maybe it’s okay to stigmatize antisocial behavior? Let’s let the researchers be dispassionate and the rest of society can continue to say bad things are bad (not that I agree that everything the article calls “antisocial” actually are).
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Maybe this is good for them and a few shareholders, but is this a net good for society? I know that sometimes hard choices have to be made, but if done without a shred of empathy only to maximize resources for the decision-maker, i'm having trouble seeing a genuine upside.
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Ah, finally someone comes to the defense of the long suffering poor corporate sociopath. Those poor poor individuals. JFC, give me a break. The world would be a far far better place without the likes of them,
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I worked for someone(s) like this. I possibly, had two of them above me where I work.
The outcome hasn’t been pretty for me. I can get very worked up about it so I won’t tell the story, but physical and mental damage has been the outcome of it. Maybe very serious physical damage.
If I could go back in time I would have run away from them. I knew when the more senior one lied to my face, then a week later gave herself a raise (yes, she did that), that I should have quit. I stayed and fought.
Don’t.
Run fast, run far, and don’t stop.
The outcome hasn’t been pretty for me. I can get very worked up about it so I won’t tell the story, but physical and mental damage has been the outcome of it. Maybe very serious physical damage.
If I could go back in time I would have run away from them. I knew when the more senior one lied to my face, then a week later gave herself a raise (yes, she did that), that I should have quit. I stayed and fought.
Don’t.
Run fast, run far, and don’t stop.
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“Gaining success can be tough; it is all about survival of the fittest.”
I may agree with this statement, but not want to engage in the struggle
I may agree with this statement, but not want to engage in the struggle
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Unfortunately, there are plenty of examples to prove that psychopaths, left to their own devices, will optimize for themselves and their companies, and completely ignore any harm they might do to others. I offer as evidence, the numerous times industry has argued for loosening regulations with the explanation that "the industry is fully capable of self-regulation", e.g.: petrochemical, farming, mining and finance industries.
Narrator: "They're not."
So governmental regulation of industry, even when crippled by industry "campaign donations", is necessary to counteract psychopathic self-interest.
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Psychiatrists must overthink things to stay busy; there isn’t much to the field. Psychopaths hurt society. Everything in moderation.
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Well, one upside is being a psychopath means never having to mean "I'm sorry."
More to the point, if the person you wind up with at the top lacks empathy and has no interest in even emulating it, then everyone below them is going to suffer from dysfunction on some level.
More to the point, if the person you wind up with at the top lacks empathy and has no interest in even emulating it, then everyone below them is going to suffer from dysfunction on some level.
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Great, can't wait to tell my wife! She'll be delighted to hear all these years of being married to an asshole have not been a waste.
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Is it necessary? I'm very empathic and I've fired people. It's not pleasant, but sometimes work is unpleasant. What I haven't done is sabotage anybody around me for personal gain.
The more outwardly psycopathic executives I've met weren't even necessarily that good at their job - you tend to see them building fiefdoms, or running vanity projects, or other behaviors that help them individually but not necessarily the company as a whole.
I don't doubt they're overrepresented at the tops of companies, but honestly I think most pathos are. You often sacrifice family and friends in pursuit of promotion, just to be saddled with more stresses - there's a fair amount of "I'll show Daddy he should have loved me" energy or some variation thereof. If you were healthy and well adjusted why would you make those trades?
I just chalk the idea that good executives are psycopaths to the psycopaths' penchant for self promotion. The same "Masters of the Universe" energy that pervades Wall Street. The successful traders seem to be the kindly old man from Omaha and various nerdy quant types, but the testosterone fueled psycopaths love to claim they're doing something laudable with whatever hairbrained scheme they're undertaking. And honestly, for all the bravado and greed is good energy, the schemes regularly blow up in their faces in the end.
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Me? I tend towards successful sociopath. We know each other on sight. Always interesting.
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I have to think that we had enough of one particular successful psychopath with the previous occupant of the White House. Jack Smith, please hurry up and indict and convict him on strong cases of insurrection and treason among other crimes!
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Correlation, no matter how high the degree, does not equate to causation. When looking at the 'benefits' of psychopathy, one must also examine why it has those benefits. We have governmental, economic, and sociological structures that reward the behavior, and they've evolved right alongside the rest of civilization. That doesn't make the behavior beneficial to any of those systems or structures, or civilization as a whole. Just to the individual or groups set up to be rewarded by the behavior (usually, notably, set up by previous high-functioning psychopaths). It should also be pointed out that in the past, the 'scope' of the harm a psychopath could cause was significantly more limited. Societies were smaller and more isolated, so they couldn't spread their influence nearly as far or as fast. In today's globally connected world, one psychopath can ruin the lives of billions over night. I daresay, you'd have a hard time convincing me that there's any 'benefit' to such a dynamic.
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Both exist. Narcissists care a lot about perception, sometimes the loving family is a cultivated front. In that case, the family is often a lot less happy then they feel compelled to show in public. Other times the ruthless persona is the disguise. Even outside of psycopaths there's a lot of play acting in business - we impact each others lives but especially at a big company we know each other so superficially that there's a tendency to put on a front of how your role is supposed to act - the rockstar programmer, the bubbly HR liason, the harried middle manager.
Oh, definitely some do. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug. The slightly more benign version is that you try to act in everyone's interest, and don't dwell on the fact that any option likely harms somebody. Firing underperformers is painful but losing marketshare to competitors because your inefficient can lead to more firings. Forgoing needed raises to appease investors is bad, but so is losing top employees because their options are worthless as your stock price spirals down. Basically, I think almost all executives distance themselves from the outcomes of their actions - and some use that distance to personally enrich themselves, while others try to make hard but productive choices.
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Exactly, and a job isn’t one of those places, or doesn’t have to be.
And a psychopath is the F’ing Terminator.
Listen, and understand. That psychopath is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
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It worked for good old Charley Manson, if you consider notoriety a good thing. He got a Wikipedia article, a few books and at least a movie or two.
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OrangeCream
Ars Legatus Legionis
There’s a saying, a rising tide lifts all boats.
Someone highly motivated to get something will leave behind the artifacts they used to get it. Those artifacts can then be used by other people.
Musk is a pretty obvious example here. He’s motivated to make Tesla and SpaceX successful and as a byproduct the rest of the EV and space industries benefit.
However is interest in Twitter is actually breaking it, as opposed to helping it, because Twitter’s value to him is his ability to express himself without restraint. This actually isn’t valued as much so advertisers are avoiding his Twitter.
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OrangeCream
Ars Legatus Legionis
Even psychopaths can be moderate.
The point seems clear to me.
Imagine a surgeon. Imagine that a kind empathic person can’t possibly take a electric saw to a person’s chest, cut apart bones and muscle, can’t incise and dissect and remove living chunks of flesh, can’t insert their hand with knife into organs, etc.
The difference between a surgeon and a killer, here, is intent. The surgeon might do everything a killer would, except the surgeon is excising to save a person’s life. They reattach bones and muscles and nerves after taking them apart. They go to school to learn how to minimize the damage.
But mentally? They have to be 100% okay with hurting people to do their jobs.
So if psychopathy can be measured on a scale from 1:100, then those lower on the scale might be capable of using their psychopathy to their advantage while minimizing their negatives. If you’re smart you realize that being too psychopathic gets you jail time so you limit as much as you can.
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Arguably what we need is someone who is very direct, does not listen to complaints about too high costs, and just does what needs to be done…
Kinda like… a psychopath!
Anything can be good or evil,
Technology, character traits etc.
Its just how it comes to the fore that matters.
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RickRoyLeonPrisZhoraRacha
Ars Scholae Palatinae
Undeniably, there is credible evidence that society admires the Psychopath. In movies, we have The Joker, Darth Vader, Dexter, Norman Bates, Jeff Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Jack the Ripper, ... and most villians. We seems to want to empathize more on "how they came to be"... but without the remorse of their results. While its some fiction, the non-fictional killers still have followings.
My question is: do they serve as a weedkiller to society? or are they merely products of how not to raise a child?
My question is: do they serve as a weedkiller to society? or are they merely products of how not to raise a child?
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Back when I was at uni, we had a kind of Psychology 101 class for non-psychologists. The teacher basically said that most psychological conditions are gradual: Pretty much everyone will be able to recognize some of the symptoms in themselves, the difference is in the intensity and the balance between them.
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I was agreeing with you right up until you turned the corner from reasonable observation to completely bonkers speculation.
Psychopathy is what one is born with. It is not made. The proof of that is how PTSD is linked to empathy - the psychopaths have substantially less PTSD because they don't have much, if any, empathy.
This research only shows the mechanisms for treatment, because psychopathy is an aberrant condition.
So your observations were spot-on. But your speculation is baseless.
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There has been a lot of research on this topic in business psychology. As will surprise very few of you, it turns out that many CEOs are psychopaths. The question is "How does a psychopath rise through the ranks to become CEO?" since the traits are the direct opposite of what is needed to advance.
Many have come to the conclusion that psychopaths are very good at hiding their anti-social behaviors until they reach a position in which they can no longer be punished for them - at which time, they let their jerk flag fly. (See: Elon musk, Steve jobs)
Many have come to the conclusion that psychopaths are very good at hiding their anti-social behaviors until they reach a position in which they can no longer be punished for them - at which time, they let their jerk flag fly. (See: Elon musk, Steve jobs)
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