Compression Attached Memory Modules may make upgradable laptops a thing again

The CAMM2 spec was recently finalized, and memory makers are testing the waters.

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[peterford]

Glances at the Apple M series processors and the new Intel processors with onboard memory.
Ah well.

 

[C-Port]

I frequently see people complaining about the built in memory of laptops being non upgradable, and pointing to planned obsolescence and a desire to overcharge for higher memory varients. Those are certainly real company motivations, but I appreciate this article covering why it isn't purely greed motivated, and showing hope on the horizon!

 

[Merced]

It'll be upgradable for everyone except Apple's customers. They'll solder the RAM and pump the whole machine full of epoxy and ultrasonically weld the case shut.

 

[squid_whisperer]

I frequently see people complaining about the built in memory of laptops being non upgradable, and pointing to planned obsolescence and a desire to overcharge for higher memory varients. Those are certainly real company motivations, but I appreciate this article covering why it isn't purely greed motivated, and showing hope on the horizon!

I'm sceptical though, that this matters to enough of the general population to build a business case to provide upgradability. I would love to see a move to more fixable and upgradable hardware, so I hope I'm wrong - and this article definitely provides welcome news.

 

[jamesb2147]

I'd pay more for one of these. It's genuinely exciting to be able to keep a device working for longer by upgrading its RAM down the line when it's much cheaper to do so. Can help delay a new laptop purchase by a couple of years, easily, as CPU is rarely a limiting factor.

 

[IncorrigibleTroll]

As a PC manufacturer, why support CAMM in your laptops when you could continue soldering RAM down, locking buyers into paying whatever price you set for upgrades?

That's a damned good question, Andrew. And I'm afraid the cynical response is the most likely to be correct.

 

[batswithhats]

Possible typo with: "Some still laptops still support"

 

[TatsuyaShiba]

Glances at the Apple M series processors and the new Intel processors with onboard memory.
Ah well.

I hope Intel and AMD will introduce tiered memory when they release chips with on package memory like in Apple M series processors.

This way high bandwith on package memory can be used for graphics while slower upgradable memory can be used for general compute.

I believe Intel is already doing this with Xeon processors with on package HBM memory where you can increase system memory with upgradable DDR5 ram.

 

[Xangis]

I didn't realize that laptops were mostly-non-upgradeable now. I've been sticking with workstation-class laptops for the last decade or so (HP ZBook and similar), so it's always been easy to swap/upgrade RAM, CPU, and GPU.

 

[evan_s]

Hopefully, manufacturers will be motivated to switch due to the supply chain and inventor management advantages of not having to have different SKUs for every possible combination of memory/processor/other feature. Dropping one variable out of there greatly decreases the number of possible combinations you have to worry about.

 

[dwrd]

One can hope that the market pull of upgradibility and repairability will overcome the vendors' desire to wring every last cent out of their marks customers.

 

[thomsirveaux]

I didn't realize that laptops were mostly-non-upgradeable now. I've been sticking with workstation-class laptops for the last decade or so (HP ZBook and similar), so it's always been easy to swap/upgrade RAM, CPU, and GPU.

Yeah most consumer ultrabooky stuff is soldered by default these days, including all the big tentpole machines (X1 Carbon, XPS 13, etc). You can definitely still find ones with SO-DIMM slots but even most of the budget stuff you see on Best Buy, Newegg, etc defaults to some variety of LPDDR4/5 (which means soldered).

 

[plaustrum]

I would love seeing something like this on Apple hardware. I am wondering, however, what the motivation for the company would be.

 

[malor]

I guess those are the same screws they use for M.2 retention, which is good in the sense that they'll be easier to buy, but bad in the sense that you're likely to need to buy some, after dropping the original on a carpet. Unless you've got a strong magnet, you're probably not going to find it.

With both M.2 slots and now with CAMM2, I wish they'd gone with the standard fine-threaded screw types; those heads are pretty large, so you lose some board space, but they're everywhere, and big enough that they're hard to lose. It would be much easier on users.

 

[rosen380]

Unless you've got a strong magnet, you're probably not going to find it.

Best use of old hard drives... disassemble for the magnets, so that you have something to find your m.2 screws with.

 

[UserIDAlreadyInUse]

I've been a fan of field-replaceable hardware ever since reading my first William Gibson novel, looking ever to eke just that much more power out of whatever chassis I happened to be carrying with me at the moment. Sadly laid to rest in recent years with laptops that have more in common with smartphones than the decks envisioned all those decades ago.

So seeing things like this make its way out to the wild make my day just that bit brighter.

 

[IncorrigibleTroll]

I guess those are the same screws they use for M.2 retention, which is good in the sense that they'll be easier to buy, but bad in the sense that you're likely to need to buy some, after dropping the original on a carpet. Unless you've got a strong magnet, you're probably not going to find it.

With both M.2 slots and now with CAMM2, I wish they'd gone with the standard fine-threaded screw types; those heads are pretty large, so you lose some board space, but they're everywhere, and big enough that they're hard to lose. It would be much easier on users.

I feel this so hard and I don’t even work on my system over carpet; they aren’t much easier to find on bare floor unless you can catch a shadow with a flashlight.

 

[adamsc]

Man Apple Haters really are unhinged.

Look at their history: it’s just hot takes, block and move on.

 

[buback]

Will it be the same spec for laptops and desktops? if so, i can see this building steam with diy pc builders first, then budget laptops once the costs drop (soldered base level memory with an empty pad for upgradeability).

 

[atmartens]

One of the worst trends has been the forced up-selling. Getting more RAM often now also requires a faster processor, or getting a higher resolution display will require upgrading to a discrete GPU. It's easier for the manufacturers to do this if nothing is user-serviceable.

 

[plectrum]

I'm still not really seeing the advantage in terms of board area. Compare the space taken up by the CAMM module with the space occupied by the soldered DRAM chips in the XPS12. The advantage of DIMMs is you can use the space underneath them for low profile components, which it seems you can't for CAMM, but need to keep it bare board. Or did I miss something?

 

[malor]

One of the worst trends has been the forced up-selling. Getting more RAM often now also requires a faster processor, or getting a higher resolution display will require upgrading to a discrete GPU. It's easier for the manufacturers to do this if nothing is user-serviceable.

I was pricing out a Mac Mini the other day, out of interest. The base model is $600, but comes with only 8 gigs. If you want 16, you have to pay somewhere around twice as much.

 

[wrylachlan]

I suppose I need my nerd card revoked, but at this point I’m past fucking with upgrading stuff. Buy a bit more RAM than you think you need (wife’s 16GB MBP), hold onto devices for a long time (lovingly pats OG iPad Pro), and when you need something more make sure the old device finds a new home with someone who needs it (every town has a good local tech refurbished/charity at this point) and buy a new device.

The appliance-ification of computing has worked out pretty well for me.

 

[bobby6kennedy]

Best use of old hard drives... disassemble for the magnets, so that you have something to find your m.2 screws with.

The kidney shaped ones from the drive actuator arms are awesome. Just a step down from what kids could hurt themselves with.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Or give me a 4 mm thicker laptop and let me use SODIMM.
It's all your fault, Jony Ive.

 

[drkstar82]

That's a damned good question, Andrew. And I'm afraid the cynical response is the most likely to be correct.

A possible benefit is now you only need one motherboard for your entire model. Not several depending on how much ram you offer. I would have to assume companies learned something from the supply issues of the pandemic.

 

[IncorrigibleTroll]

A possible benefit is now you only need one motherboard for your entire model. Not several depending on how much ram you offer. I would have to assume companies learned something from the supply issues of the pandemic.

I'd much rather that you be correct and that I'm being too pessimistic, but I find it difficult to believe that these companies have memories longer than 12 seconds.

 

[Elektriktoad]

Even consumers with no intention of ever cracking the case benefit from this kind of upgradeability. The resale value goes up if a buyer can easily pop in new components to extend the device’s useful life.

 

[mobby_6kl]

All RAM is upgradable if you're brave enough!

 

[psarhjinian]

Or give me a 4 mm thicker laptop and let me use SODIMM.
It's all your fault, Jony Ive.

Yes but also no.

SODIMMs can't work with the low-power+high-frequency signalling required for LPDDR5, while CAMM can. You could use regular DDR5 SODIMMs (like Framework does) but we're stilling bumping up against signalling limits, and DDR5 does tend to clock lower and use more power.

I'm glad to see CAMM become mainstream, because I hope it means we'll keep socketed memory into DDR6, and maybe even on GPUs.

 

[Working Harsly]

Given the direction the CPU makers are going with on die memory, I would much rather see this utilized for CPU attachment.

 

[psarhjinian]

If I'm reading this correctly, CAMM (as used in the Dell Precision 7x70 and 7x80) and CAMM2 aren't compatible.

If so, sucks to be a Precision owner. CAMMs were hard to come by before; glad they made a CAMM<>SODIMM adapter because those laptops were not cheap.

 

[Octavus]

Or give me a 4 mm thicker laptop and let me use SODIMM.
It's all your fault, Jony Ive.

Consumers have repeatedly voted with their wallets that they would rather have the thinner and lighter device (that is also cheaper to manufacturer) than an upgraded one. They may respond in surveys that they want upgradeability but when it comes time to buy they do not select those devices. I personally use to work in development for a laptop OEM, what people say they want doesn't matter compared to what they actually buy. The lower cost of soldering directly on the board (DIMMs and connectors are not free) and higher ASP (consumers buying more RAM initially) is just icing on the cake.

 

[theizzz]

Man Apple Haters really are unhinged.

how is that unhinged? With Dell's support it's nearly confirmed that CAMM will be the future which Apple will have neither upgradable ram, nor upgradable storage...or wifi card, or sound card, or anything for that matter. Meanwhile Framework and even Microsoft are working towards more upgradability and repairability. the hate that Apple gets when it comes to right to repair and upgradable parts is completely warranted. Maybe your Apple-fanboy bias is the problem?

 

[ScifiGeek]

This could replace SODIMM memory, where CAMM is just better.

But I suspect it will have a harder time against soldered in RAM in the thinnest products, where it still takes up more space.

 

[mmiller7]

I'd pay more for one of these. It's genuinely exciting to be able to keep a device working for longer by upgrading its RAM down the line when it's much cheaper to do so. Can help delay a new laptop purchase by a couple of years, easily, as CPU is rarely a limiting factor.

Yes!

I've also had some where the technology advances...the laptop I had in college was sold with 1-4GB RAM. I eventually upgraded it to 8GB RAM when the modules became common. When I was building a SFF home server I had a brainstorm as it used the same DDR3 memory and I stuck the 16GB modules in my laptop to see what happened. The BIOS didn't have enough digits so it showed "6348MB" but booting a memtest showed all 16384MB available and passed all tests, and Windows would happily run and show 16GB available.

The main reason I finally retired that machine after about 9 years is I could no longer get high-capacity batteries for it, and it was somewhat power-hungry (older i7 quad core with a real nVidia GPU) only running ~5 hours on a double-capacity battery. But it could have been upgraded to run with more memory than was even possible to purchase when I bought the machine, and it still did everything I could want a computer to do.

I was quite annoyed to discover my current laptop not only is the RAM soldered but the WiFi/Bluetooth card is also soldered to the motherboard.

 

[artvandelayIIII]

It'll be upgradable for everyone except Apple's customers. They'll solder the RAM and pump the whole machine full of epoxy and ultrasonically weld the case shut.

I'd complain, but my 2020 M1 MacBook Air roasted my previous 2020 Intel i5 MacBook Air so fucking hard, I can't be bothered. Triple the battery life, no fan, and stays responsive through some frankly irresponsible levels of multitasking. The bump from 8 to 16 GB of RAM cost a grand total of $200. I'm not losing any sleep over it. ¯\(ツ)/¯