Cloudflare may pull servers out of Italy over order that it block pirate sites

Italy fines Cloudflare 14M euros for not blocking pirate sites on 1.1.1.1 DNS service.

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[graylshaped]

Meanwhile, the US appear to be using Microsoft to try to silence the ICC.

Trump's hypocrisy does not invalidate the issue.

 

[Shavano]

A soccer league is not a country. There are no penalties for overblocking or any other fuckups with regards to blocking. The law itself is an expression of corruption since deep pockets (soccer is worth billions) bought this law.

If they wanted to do something that protects copyright holders actual rights rather than claimed rights, they'd have made the services liable for losses caused by copyright violations after the alleged violation is found to be factual by a court.

 

[Hispalensis]

Trump is a child and easily played, the rest are goons hired loyalty not competency, so I wouldn't be surprised. It wouldn't be hard to spin this to fit into his rants about European censorship.

Honestly, Trump's fixation with certain issues is a great asset for other countries, the US ends up giving up critical stuff in exchange for things that are worthless except in Trump's mind (see: giving China access to NVIDA GPUs in exchange for a 10% cut of the sales for the US gov).

So, here's hoping that the EU reluctantly accepts killing a stupid law they actually oppose and loudly protest Trump's toughness as a negotiator in exchange for something meaningful to them.

 

[trevor_darley]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Sometimes, it takes a megacorp to stand up against extremist government overreach. I hope Cloudflare gives them the ol' Piazzale Loreto (Wikipedia - image NSFW) treatment (figuratively, of course).

 

[henryhbk]

This isn't Cloudflare vs a government. It's Cloudflare vs another corporation that has way too much power. This dictates that we have to evaluate the situation.

In this situation an individual or Italian ISP has no hope of fighting back against the corporation demanding this block. In this scenario Cloudflare is both technically correct and it's interests align with the common good or public. I won't declare them as a "good" company because that is a lot more complicated but in this specific instance they are on the right side of this fight. Taken to an extreme this Italian law would leave IPv4 unusable as more and more of the address space got polluted with these IP blocks and address space exhaustion got even worse. It's also clearly reaching beyond the boarders of the country as it requires CloudFlare to block it globally for their DNS service. Not to mention that it is fundamentally set up in an unfair way. A COMPANY gets to submit unsubstantiated claims and then due to the time requirements for the block to go into effect there is no chance for review and no appeal process. This is literally a COMPANY gets to knock something off the internet just because they say it's doing something bad. Want to talk about potential for abuse. That is a MASSIVE one.

This is the equivalent of the NFL being able to knock any site off the internet just because they think it might be connected to illegal NFL streams. It's completely ridiculous and we should be cheering someone big enough fighting back against that corporate overreach.

To me the lack of appeals process (or sanctions for making a false claim either by being overly broad or deliberately callous (I am making the assumption that the futbol media companies didn't deliberately target Google as that would be insane)) if there were real consequences then those false claims would stop real fast, Google is basically at nation state level and on the internet has the ability to go nuclear on you ("it would be a shame if nobody could find any of your streaming packages when they search... and android will no long play your content" I can't imagine the Italian market is so critical that google/aws etc couldn't make a legitimate threat to simply walk away, or deprioritize that futbol consortium's videos on YouTube, not completely, just enough to tank their monetization. You can poke the bear a little bit, but if you go after it;s food supply, you better kill it, which is seriously unlikely that Italy could take down one of the largest US tech companies, when all they have to do is walk away, leaving Italy's internet a poor shell of itself. Especially in this case where it is not the EU, which combined is a huge market, it's a bunch of companies which google can likely swat in court.

 

[trevor_darley]

People here should know that the scum who run Cloudflare are harboring spammer websites on a daily basis for weeks now. You have no idea how many complaints that I sent to Cloudflare regarding this issue

Evidence:

Your idea of "evidence" is a WHOIS lookup for some site no one here has heard of? Is this a "pressed send too early" situation or a "missed meds" situation?

 

[Ace30]

If Italy & Meloni (who used to be all about freedom) continue to press cloudfare then cloudfare just needs to pack it up and leave Italy.

 

[Chuckstar]

My wife and her family enjoy watching fútbol matches, but many of the ones they would like to watch simply aren’t available here. They’ve tried getting subscriptions to legitimate sports streaming services just to have the matches geoblocked. They can try working around the geoblocks via VPN, which some services try to block, or they can hoist the .

A few years ago I learned that when it is spelled “fútbol” in an English language discussion, that is an anti-Latino micro-aggression. Don’t ask me how or why that is, though. I think we’re just not supposed to interact with people of different cultures anymore, or something like that.

I’m not even sure if I’m allowed to wear cowboy boots anymore. I did grow up in the Southwest, but I never worked with cattle. Is it cultural appropriation if I wear cowboy boots as a non-cowboy? The rules have become so confusing.

 

[poke 532810]

A few years ago I learned that when it is spelled “fútbol” in an English language discussion, that is an anti-Latino micro-aggression. Don’t ask me how or why that is, though. I think we’re just not supposed to interact with people of different cultures anymore, or something like that.

I’m not even sure if I’m allowed to wear cowboy boots anymore. I did grow up in the Southwest, but I never worked with cattle. Is it cultural appropriation if I wear cowboy boots as a non-cowboy? The rules have become so confusing.

My wife and her family are from from South America. Their first language is Spanish, and they call it fútbol. When I lived in South America, everyone there called it fútbol. So I tend to call soccer fútbol, because that’s what a lot of people I know call it, and when I watch it, it’s with my family and with Spanish commentary. No anti-Latino micro-aggression intended. I agree that the rules are confusing. I’d say, put on the cowboy boots and go for it.

 

[Chuckstar]

My wife and her family are from from South America. Their first language is Spanish, and they call it fútbol. When I lived in South America, everyone there called it fútbol. So I tend to call soccer fútbol, because that’s what a lot of people I know call it, and when I watch it, it’s with my family and with Spanish commentary. No anti-Latino micro-aggression intended. I agree that the rules are confusing. I’d say, put on the cowboy boots and go for it.

It was all joking, btw. I mean… someone did claim a few years ago that it’s a micro-aggression, but I think that is totally stupid. I guess I didn’t do a good enough job getting across my sarcasm.

 

[.wojtek]

Only Italy should be allowed to do that!

and they are trying yet cloudflare ran back to big daddy...

 

[graylshaped]

and they are trying yet cloudflare ran back to big daddy...

It's amusing to see Italy being held up as a model for good governance.

 

[Cloudgazer]

It was all joking, btw. I mean… someone did claim a few years ago that it’s a micro-aggression, but I think that is totally stupid. I guess I didn’t do a good enough job getting across my sarcasm.

If anything it is a micro-aggression towards the English by renaming the English language name of a sport they invented to something Spanish. British people are triggered enough when you call it Soccer.

Mostly it just seems weird to me though, especially in the context of the Italian game - because Italians don't call it Futbol or Futebol or anything even a little like that. I can't help imagining the American posters using the term talking loudly in bad Spanish when on holiday in non Spanish speaking countries because everybody speaks the same foreign don't they?

 

[Marvin__]

''AGCOM rejected Cloudflare’s arguments. The agency said the required blocking would impose no risk on legitimate websites ...

It is amazing how European bureaucrats, the geniuses that brought to us Cookie banners and upload filters, folks who have been unable to create a single relevant internet platform in Europe, keep lecturing the folks that DID actually create something, how easy it should be to do things.

 

[sadatoni]

Maybe just run your own validating, recursive, caching DNS resolver instead of DNS servers like Cloudflare.

 

[bob_page_cousin]

AGCOM: Bad bad pizza! Block his pizza!
Cloudflare: Vaffanculo!

 

[graylshaped]

... it's just usanian mentality of "we know better and we feel the need to dictate the whole world what to do"

You realize that is what the Italian law does, right? And Cloudflare is calling the law out for the poor policy it is, AND will follow the law if Italy decides to cling to the nut inside the gourd by taking their ball and bat and going home, right?

I'd rather they not give Trump the satisfaction of asking him to throw his weight around, but in the end Trump isn't the key figure in this scenario he would want to pretend he is.

 

[Boskone]

If anything it is a micro-aggression towards the English by renaming the English language name of a sport they invented to something Spanish. British people are triggered enough when you call it Soccer.

The British also created the term "soccer".

 

[gleap]

Nice theory. Why are games available on Steam still pirated?

Because reality is not an endless state of absolutes.

Numbers other than 100% and 0% exist.

This question is just so badly thought lmao

Steam has lowered video game piracy by providing a good service, not nullified the concept from existence.

Netflix has increased piracy by being incompetent. Not replaced all digital media streaming with pre pirated copies of Media.

Number go up and number go down. Number not 0%, number also not 100%. Number is number.

 

[Komarov]

Yeah, well, a stopped clock is right twice a day. So, even though I loathe them, Elon Musk and JD Vance get a thumbs up from me on this one. They still get a thumbs down on pretty much everything else.

That's total bullshit. In Musk's case, "free speech" means "I can say or do anything I want and if you object you're banned from my site".

As for Vance, he doesn't think, he just parrots the last blurb he's been paid to.

 

[Chuckstar]

If anything it is a micro-aggression towards the English by renaming the English language name of a sport they invented to something Spanish. British people are triggered enough when you call it Soccer.

Mostly it just seems weird to me though, especially in the context of the Italian game - because Italians don't call it Futbol or Futebol or anything even a little like that. I can't help imagining the American posters using the term talking loudly in bad Spanish when on holiday in non Spanish speaking countries because everybody speaks the same foreign don't they?

“Soccer” was originally a British term for it, though. It just stayed in use in the U.S. because we have a different game we call football.

 

[Komarov]

He won the election with fewer than 31 percent of the potential voting population.

Just stop already with that excuse. Hitler got "only" around 30% of the vote. What's going on in the US looks suspiciously like someone pirated someone else's playbook.

Unless you fight back, you're all equally responsible.

 

[Komarov]

It was all joking, btw. I mean… someone did claim a few years ago that it’s a micro-aggression, but I think that is totally stupid. I guess I didn’t do a good enough job getting across my sarcasm.

You should wear a sombrero* with those boots.

* A top-hat is a sombrero, just to be clear.

 

[Komarov]

''AGCOM rejected Cloudflare’s arguments. The agency said the required blocking would impose no risk on legitimate websites ...

It is amazing how European bureaucrats, the geniuses that brought to us Cookie banners and upload filters, folks who have been unable to create a single relevant internet platform in Europe, keep lecturing the folks that DID actually create something, how easy it should be to do things.

I agree, it should have been an outright ban on third-party cookies.

 

[WozNZ]

Gabe summed it up best where Steam believe that piracy is a service issue and nothing more.

The rest of the content industry fails to comprehend this simple truth though lol

 

[gleap]

And pirates will pirate. Making up fake altrustic reasons why people think they should have access to what isn't theirs is a silly, transparent effort to justify theft.

"lmao" indeed.

No one said anything about altruistic. You just aren't following along with the discussion again.

Many things can have positive results despite being self serving. Piracy is absolutely self serving, hence why it decreases when the product being sold is better than the pirate option.

It's now in the consumers self interest to buy the product as the pirated options inferior.

It's a matter of self interest that makes it beneficial to society as a whole.

Crying in defense of major corporations because boo hoo pirates conversely is the opposite. It's selfless, there's no benefits to be had from defending Disney or whatever.

But it's also a net negative to society as large companies just use every possible avenue to erode consumer rights, enshittify the product, and extract maximum profit from minimum necessary quality.

But hey high horsing for two seconds around nuanced subjects is always more fun than trying understand them right?

 

[Cloudgazer]

The British also created the term "soccer".

Soccer was the posh shortening of a posh name that was invented to distinguish the sport from 'Rugby football', the closely related sport that said posh people actually cared about. The English people of the social class that cared about football didn't and don't call it that.

So it is, as the kids would say today, problematic.

 

[graylshaped]

No one said anything about altruistic.

No, just a bunch of rationalization about it being "good for society."

 

[.wojtek]

''AGCOM rejected Cloudflare’s arguments. The agency said the required blocking would impose no risk on legitimate websites ...

It is amazing how European bureaucrats, the geniuses that brought to us Cookie banners and upload filters, folks who have been unable to create a single relevant internet platform in Europe, keep lecturing the folks that DID actually create something, how easy it should be to do things.

It's amazing how usanians still can't differentiate between EU (not a country) a and actual countries governments...

While it would be "painful" short term, usanians corps effin off to it's circus land would be amazing...

also, you are aware that Linux - that tiny thing that drives whole internet - was created by european in Europe?

 

[Narayana]

I do understand what AGCOM are trying to accomplish and respect that. However, the way they go about it is so one-sided it shouldn't be allowed to.

Submitting IP's to be blocked is fine.
Blocking DNS-request for said IPs after a careful investigation is fine.
Not having any accountability for wrongful IP blocks is absolutely not fine.
Not having a proper process to challenge a block before it's enacted is absolutely not fine.

If there were a significant downside for rights holders for wrongfully requesting an IP blocked. That's the problem with the American DMCA. It basically gives rights holders no incentive to be accurate and careful. Just block and stomp on other people without risk, costs or downsides.

Great power should come with great responsibility.

 

[Scary Devil Monastery]

Or maybe, the “piracy” law is the real piracy here.

It is.

To be sure a debate is to be had about the boundaries between copyright and the rights of free expression and property - but this isn't it.
What is described in the OP is simply that cloudflare - no matter what else can be said about them - is very reasonably refusing to abide by a law which has private entities telling them a site is a "pirate" site.

Let that sink in for a moment. This is basically the Youtube auto-generated takedown notices taken to the network level with large middleman gatekeepers insisting that they should be able to have addresses censored from the DNS index based on nothing but their own say-so.

Hell, even if there was a reasonable court order based on good jurisprudens behind it this is still the equivalent of having an address erased from the map because it may contain material the powers that be find objectionable. Normalized information control. And if this can be done for something as trivial as copyright infringement, where does the lower bar lie when it comes to any other form of law enforcement or political inconvenience? Make the claim that someone in the union is under investigation for assault as part of a picket line and erase the union's webpage adress on the DNS level?

Given how often politicians and government entities have used copyright as the bat to stifle free expression (see Erdogan's campaign to shut down social media in Turkey a few years past and German intelligence stonewalling a freedom of information request) the main issue in the OP isn't cloudflare's actions but that Italy has sunk so low as to demand that low a barrier on information control and censorship.

 

[Scary Devil Monastery]

Piracy is unique in that it's one of the few crimes actually good for society as a whole.

Release a crappy product, provide crappy service etc etc and the rate of piracy goes up.

Netflix becomes garbage, suddenly movie piracy sky rockets.

On the other hand provide a quality service like say steam and the effort to pirate is straight not worth it. It's better to pay for the product. Why pirate music when say Spotify functions well at a reasonable price point.

It acts like a counterbalance on corporate greed and Incompetence.

The main reason so much money is spent "fighting piracy" has nothing to do with piracy in the first place. It has to do with every gatekeeper industry finding a lot of convenience in being able to stifle and suppress competitors at will.

Ask any indie content producer on Youtube how much time they have to spend proving that the content they made is actually theirs as automated takedown and demonetization requests come pouring down on them.

It's not hard to realize why. Consumers only have that much spare time to consume content in. That time is filled a thousand times over by shows, movies, youtube and vevo clips, online games, offline games, and about a thousand convenient android/iphone time wasters. If your choices are to invest money and effort in making something unique enough to stand out or just toss a bag of money at lobbyists and lawyers already dedicated to unmaking the internet or enabling the suppression of competition the choice is clear.

It helps that a hundred thousand artists and content creators have been somehow sold on the idea that the most corrupt and monopolistic industries in the dog damn world are somehow looking out for their interests.
The outcome, looking at how youtube content creators got hit by the DMCA, is like watching devoted Trumpists wondering vaguely why their lives are so much more difficult after Dear Leader was given everything he said he needed to eliminate their enemies.

Being an artist has always been rough. Always a case of many being called and few chosen. Always a case of people struggling until they got tired or got really, really lucky.
And those struggling people got sold early on on copyright somehow being for them. It's not. It never was. And this is brought home to them with a vengeance the very second they make it big enough for someone with a legal team and a trawling bot to turn on the screws.

 

[Scary Devil Monastery]

Nice theory. Why are games available on Steam still pirated?

That's not the point.

Steam has made a business model based around convenience and accessibility. Their business is booming. They certainly get their games pirated because their DRM is barebones but it apparently doesn't impact their revenue.

Similar services who've started out inconvenient, usually based on draconian DRM and/or general enshittification see their games pirated because the legitimate access is artificially crippled. No one wants to play a game which contains Denuvo, for instance, and so the pirate offer is the better quality offer. It's that simple.
Hell, most big titles today realize this to the point where even if the triple-A title is launched with DRM a patch issued a few months later often removes it.

For over thirty years it's been proven that it's possible to compete with piracy just by being convenient. Every study shows that piracy is part and parcel of the group which spends by far the most money - and the main reason that piracy isn't a lost sale is simply because pirates already DO spend all their money on legitimate purchases to begin with. Another copy made would never have been sold to start with.

You can compete with free. You can't compete with bad. This is what Valve learned and which other game platforms and streaming services are starting to re-learn the hard way.

Most of anti-pirate action today has nothing to do with copyright as such and more to do with trying to defend the continued enshittification of the market monopolies it grants.

 

[balthazarr]

The thousands upon thousands, if not millions, of entities adversely effected by these poorly thought out/ignorant laws and things like the ham-fisted blocking of Cloudflare in its entirety in Spain during soccer matches (WTF) - all of those entities should band together and sue the idiotic governments and the football league... they can afford to pay up, and if they can't... boo hoo, one less ridiculous private entity that thinks it can dictate the entire fucking Internet.

 

[mariupolo]

They are part of the aristocratic Italian class that have spent decades (centuries to thousands of years really) lobbying politicians for economic policies aimed distributing wealth towards them at the expense of the lower and middle income individuals, which leads to low-growth low-consumer spending power society.

In the contemporary context there is a clear decline in GDP growth that reduces the average consumer spending power in Italy which in turns means the clubs don't earn enough income from Italian consumers to buy the top players anymore.

This is very tangential to the discussion, but Italy has relatively low, and stable, income inequality: the Gini index is 34.34, and has always been below 36 this century; the Theil index is 20.92, always below 24 this century. As a point of comparison, the USA is at 41.82 and 31.59 respectively, as of 2023, with the Gini value very close to the country's all-time-high of 41.90 from 2019. The Italian economy has always been big on saving and exporting and relatively shy on domestic consumption, spending and investment. GDP growth has been largely absent in the last quarter century because of low and stagnant productivity, for structural reasons, and because of demographic reasons (Italy is the second-oldest country in the world, IIRC, by median or mean age).

 

[prh99]

also, you are aware that Linux - that tiny thing that drives whole internet - was created by european in Europe?

Who moved to the U.S and later became a citizen in 2010. Not that it matters because the Linux kernel that runs the internet is the product of work by people from all over the world and a combination of various projects that run on top of it.