Climate research probe: science robust, communication lacking

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The Climatic Research Unit and University of East Anglia emerge from the latest inquiry with the science intact but a certain amount of bruising. The science remains unquestionably sound, but the CRU is taken to task for its terrible mismanagement of Freedom of Information Act requests.

<a href='http://meincmagazine.com/science/news/2010/07/another-day-another-enquiry-and-cleared-again.ars'>Read the whole story</a>
 

hbar_squared

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yababom":qsaq3auz said:
From the summary:

The science remains unquestionably sound...

I'm not commenting on the science itself, but that statement is certainly not scientific--it's a statement of faith....
I would disagree with this. The statement is clearly referencing the scientific methods used by the CRU, which have now passed some of the most rigorous scrutiny any institution should have to face. Whether you believe in GW or not, the methods used to collect and analyze this data have been vindicated. If the denialists want to play fair, they now have to come up with a theory that accommodates this data or find a different flaw in the analysis.
 
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Chris Lee":24dfdcku said:
The fact that that e-mail was taken out of context demonstrates the dishonesty prevalent in the denialist movement.

While I understand why you might think this, stating such a thing as is does far more to harm your article than help. It makes you look unfairly biased, and provides an easy target for someone who disagrees with you. Readers who already agree with your article likely already agree with this statement. Readers who are undecided on the subject, or disagree with you are going to be alienated and put off by this claim.
 
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mitEj

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squidz":185nhiy9 said:
Chris Lee":185nhiy9 said:
The fact that that e-mail was taken out of context demonstrates the dishonesty prevalent in the denialist movement.

While I understand why you might think this, stating such a thing as is does far more to harm your article than help. It makes you look unfairly biased, and provides an easy target for someone who disagrees with you. Readers who already agree with your article likely already agree with this statement. Readers who are undecided on the subject, or disagree with you are going to be alienated and put off by this claim.


Sometimes Bias is warranted, there are many ideas and points of view with little to no genuine merit.
 
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From the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_ ... 538198.stm

The university also did not withhold temperature data derived from tree rings, the inquiry concluded.

But access to the data "was not simple until it was archived in 2009".

From this article:

They found that the data was readily available at at least three different websites. They downloaded the data, selected every station that had an adequate amount of data and performed some smoothing and spatial averaging operations on them.

I am just pointing out that before 2009 it was more difficult to get the data than today.
 
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hbar_squared":3jy5m9eo said:
yababom":3jy5m9eo said:
From the summary:

The science remains unquestionably sound...

I'm not commenting on the science itself, but that statement is certainly not scientific--it's a statement of faith....
I would disagree with this. The statement is clearly referencing the scientific methods used by the CRU, which have now passed some of the most rigorous scrutiny any institution should have to face. Whether you believe in GW or not, the methods used to collect and analyze this data have been vindicated. If the denialists want to play fair, they now have to come up with a theory that accommodates this data or find a different flaw in the analysis.

I think the objection is specifically with the word "unquestionably." It's a bit unusual for a scientist to imply that something cannot be questioned. Science seems more to imply that everything is open to be questioned. While the science in question has been reaffirmed as sound, that doesn't mean questioning it in the future would be wrong, it just means that we should not question it because it grates against our ideology.

I wouldn't go so far as to object to the statement, but I can see where yababom is coming from.
 
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boden

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squidz":kuguflux said:
Chris Lee":kuguflux said:
The fact that that e-mail was taken out of context demonstrates the dishonesty prevalent in the denialist movement.

While I understand why you might think this, stating such a thing as is does far more to harm your article than help. It makes you look unfairly biased, and provides an easy target for someone who disagrees with you. Readers who already agree with your article likely already agree with this statement. Readers who are undecided on the subject, or disagree with you are going to be alienated and put off by this claim.

I would not use the word "dishonesty". I think "Tactics" would be a better fit.
 
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mitEj":2dvpz7xi said:
squidz":2dvpz7xi said:
Chris Lee":2dvpz7xi said:
The fact that that e-mail was taken out of context demonstrates the dishonesty prevalent in the denialist movement.

While I understand why you might think this, stating such a thing as is does far more to harm your article than help. It makes you look unfairly biased, and provides an easy target for someone who disagrees with you. Readers who already agree with your article likely already agree with this statement. Readers who are undecided on the subject, or disagree with you are going to be alienated and put off by this claim.


Sometimes Bias is warranted, there are many ideas and points of view with little to no genuine merit.

You have to factor in your purpose in writing. Why did Chris write the article? Judging from some of his specific statements here and in past articles, I'm assuming that he wants to "spread science." I could be wrong about that, but that's the impression I'm acting under. So, while the line I'm taking offense with is great to toss around for a group of people who all share the same worldviews and opinions, it's probably not a good way to win over undecided or disagreeing people.
 
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bbonish

Wise, Aged Ars Veteran
170
dfiler":ye8px7dq said:
Nice article!

Are you truly "appalled" though, simply because someone doesn't want to blog? Really?

While you might find it fun and easy, some scientists, even the most brilliant in the world, would find it neither fun nor easy. To them, it might be as difficult as is the actual science to everyone else.

I agree- I can't imagine wanting to blog on this subject. Every word or phrase they put out there would be diced up and taken out of context by their opponents. No thanks.
 
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laserboy

Ars Tribunus Militum
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squidz":39h1fmam said:
hbar_squared":39h1fmam said:
yababom":39h1fmam said:
From the summary:

The science remains unquestionably sound...

I'm not commenting on the science itself, but that statement is certainly not scientific--it's a statement of faith....
I would disagree with this. The statement is clearly referencing the scientific methods used by the CRU, which have now passed some of the most rigorous scrutiny any institution should have to face. Whether you believe in GW or not, the methods used to collect and analyze this data have been vindicated. If the denialists want to play fair, they now have to come up with a theory that accommodates this data or find a different flaw in the analysis.

I think the objection is specifically with the word "unquestionably." It's a bit unusual for a scientist to imply that something cannot be questioned. Science seems more to imply that everything is open to be questioned. While the science in question has been reaffirmed as sound, that doesn't mean questioning it in the future would be wrong, it just means that we should not question it because it grates against our ideology.

I wouldn't go so far as to object to the statement, but I can see where yababom is coming from.

I can too, actually. It wasn't the best wording I have ever used...
 
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laserboy":3swrh6zp said:
No, I am truly appalled that a scientist in one of the most talked about fields of science is actively against engaging with the public by any means. He just despises blogs in particular

Why? His job is not to engage with blogs, it's to work in climate science.

More, quite a few scientists are people you DO NOT WANT communicating with the public. They're not friendly or likeable, even if they are good scientists.
 
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D

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squidz":10jl93yy said:
Chris Lee":10jl93yy said:
The fact that that e-mail was taken out of context demonstrates the dishonesty prevalent in the denialist movement.

While I understand why you might think this, stating such a thing as is does far more to harm your article than help. It makes you look unfairly biased, and provides an easy target for someone who disagrees with you. Readers who already agree with your article likely already agree with this statement. Readers who are undecided on the subject, or disagree with you are going to be alienated and put off by this claim.
There should be no harm in stating the truth, and the truth is that the vast majority of denialists are either being dishonest knowingly (denialist website contributors, oil industry representatives, politicians, etc), being dishonest unknowingly (swallow whatever the first group says hook, line, and sinker), or have no idea what they are talking about (people who think reading a few blogs and watching Fox News makes them as smart or qualified as real scientists).

Let's be honest here. This article is going to do nothing for the denialists described above. They will simply write it off as propaganda or ignore it entirely. This article is for people with an open who actually are interested in the issues surrounding the CRU and the ensuing media uproar.
 
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«
From: Phil Jones
To: "Michael E. Mann"
Subject: IPCC & FOI
Date: Thu May 29 11:04:11 2008

Mike,

Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
Keith will do likewise [...] Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? [...]
We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.
I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper!!
Cheers
Phil
»

Nothing to see here, folks, other than a whole lotta white painting.
Please move right along!
 
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phil8192

Seniorius Lurkius
17
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.
 
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phil8192":iqu22tx6 said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

You sir, are an idiot.
 
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phil8192":r95s7zt9 said:
RaveBomb":r95s7zt9 said:
I'm glad the science is sound.

Too bad it won't shut up the denialists.

There are no "denialists". There are only realists and fanboys.

Mm sweet irony, thou dost demonstrate thy bite when someone attempts to redefine reality.

Also, ROTFLMAO!
 
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D

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skicow":3ohycpjk said:
phil8192":3ohycpjk said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

You sir, are an idiot.
Please, don't feed the trolls.
 
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Jtomage

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12
phil8192":1pkqe6qn said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

Your absolutely right, the science is absolutely crap. Plants tell all we should take data from the plants. Botany is the real science of looking at climate. Which is why I disregard all weather reports that do not include the weather person talking to a plant.

Also I dont trust these Physicist and Evolutionary Biologist, there all liars. If you really wanted to know what is happening in the world all you have to do is cut open a pig and read its entrails to figure out that this "God Particle" is a lie and so is the Periodic Table. Matter of fact science did NOT help in creating of the computer, God made it.
 
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phil8192

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skicow":1zewp3tg said:
phil8192":1zewp3tg said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

You sir, are an idiot.

And you're a slobbering leftist who lacks the ability to think for himself.
 
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phil8192":1p8oft5g said:
skicow":1p8oft5g said:
phil8192":1p8oft5g said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

You sir, are an idiot.

And you're a slobbering leftist who lacks the ability to think for himself.

Wow, you got all that out of my post? Good job. You do understand that just because it's called "Global Warming" doesn't mean that everywhere on the Earth it's going to be warmer right? That it's the average climate of the entire Earth that is getting warmer?
 
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Leiesoldat

Ars Scholae Palatinae
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XavierItzmann":1rl95dvz said:
«
From: Phil Jones
To: "Michael E. Mann"
Subject: IPCC & FOI
Date: Thu May 29 11:04:11 2008

Mike,

Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
Keith will do likewise [...] Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? [...]
We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.
I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper!!
Cheers
Phil
»

Nothing to see here, folks, other than a whole lotta white painting.
Please move right along!

Didn't you post this crap the other day in another thread?

Yes I realize this is feeding the trolls but this comment was already dissected in another thread this week. Tired of seeing the same crap again.
 
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phil8192

Seniorius Lurkius
17
Jtomage":35fghbj0 said:
phil8192":35fghbj0 said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

Your absolutely right, the science is absolutely crap. Plants tell all we should take data from the plants. Botany is the real science of looking at climate. Which is why I disregard all weather reports that do not include the weather person talking to a plant.

Also I dont trust these Physicist and Evolutionary Biologist, there all liars. If you really wanted to know what is happening in the world all you have to do is cut open a pig and read its entrails to figure out that this "God Particle" is a lie and so is the Periodic Table. Matter of fact science did NOT help in creating of the computer, God made it.

Surely, you're joking, Jtomage. If you knew ANYTHING AT ALL about computer modeling, you'd know that iterative algorithms tend to diverge due to round-off error, and the results of long range projections are completely unreliable. Since most of what the CRU has put out is based on computer modeling, it's all highly suspect. You also must have missed the lesson in school when they talked about the scientific method. The successful physicists, evolutionary biologiststs and botanists are successful because they observe nature instead of staring at a computer screen.

NOAA provides the weather forecasts in the U.S. They're lucky if they get it right 3-5 days in advance; the technology for predicting the weather or the climate beyond that simply does not exist, so why should the CRU or anyone else pretend that they have a better crystal ball?
 
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Ninhalem":y9q1pd5j said:
XavierItzmann":y9q1pd5j said:
«
From: Phil Jones
To: "Michael E. Mann"
Subject: IPCC & FOI
Date: Thu May 29 11:04:11 2008

Mike,

Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
Keith will do likewise [...] Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? [...]
We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.
I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper!!
Cheers
Phil
»

Nothing to see here, folks, other than a whole lotta white painting.
Please move right along!

Didn't you post this crap the other day in another thread?
Someone certainly did. And it was already addressed in the article for that thread too.
 
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medbob

Seniorius Lurkius
19
Incompetent Bumblings? Lord Monckton? He has made mincemeat out of the claims for AGW time and time again.
Self-serving back-slapping cannot negate the common sense evaluation of the emails that were revealed. The data generated by the CRU have been irreparably tainted by the incompetence and malfeasance of the principles. Coupled with the questionable application of proxy data that deviates from expected correlation in recent years makes the conclusions worthless.

If you want to prove the point of AGW, you will have to start over. The work done at East Anglia cannot be used as a foundation for future work in the field
 
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phil8192

Seniorius Lurkius
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skicow":2tm3xbpe said:
phil8192":2tm3xbpe said:
skicow":2tm3xbpe said:
phil8192":2tm3xbpe said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

You sir, are an idiot.

And you're a slobbering leftist who lacks the ability to think for himself.

Wow, you got all that out of my post? Good job. You do understand that just because it's called "Global Warming" doesn't mean that everywhere on the Earth it's going to be warmer right? That it's the average climate of the entire Earth that is getting warmer?

You must have some deep insight to have concluded that I'm an "idiot" from my initial post. Since ad hominem attacks are a typical tactic of liberals when they can't argue facts, I'm justified in my assessment of you.
 
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Leiesoldat

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,069
Subscriptor
phil8192":2dj5l8n6 said:
Jtomage":2dj5l8n6 said:
phil8192":2dj5l8n6 said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

Your absolutely right, the science is absolutely crap. Plants tell all we should take data from the plants. Botany is the real science of looking at climate. Which is why I disregard all weather reports that do not include the weather person talking to a plant.

Also I dont trust these Physicist and Evolutionary Biologist, there all liars. If you really wanted to know what is happening in the world all you have to do is cut open a pig and read its entrails to figure out that this "God Particle" is a lie and so is the Periodic Table. Matter of fact science did NOT help in creating of the computer, God made it.

Surely, you're joking, Jtomage. If you knew ANYTHING AT ALL about computer modeling, you'd know that iterative algorithms tend to diverge due to round-off error, and the results of long range projections are completely unreliable. Since most of what the CRU has put out is based on computer modeling, it's all highly suspect. You also must have missed the lesson in school when they talked about the scientific method. The successful physicists, evolutionary biologiststs and botanists are successful because they observe nature instead of staring at a computer screen.

NOAA provides the weather forecasts in the U.S. They're lucky if they get it right 3-5 days in advance; the technology for predicting the weather or the climate beyond that simply does not exist, so why should the CRU or anyone else pretend that they have a better crystal ball?

Because they have a better idea of what they're talking about and publishing and you don't? Also since their predictions are based on warming and cooling periods over the past 40 years, does that make the predictions a little bit more accurate for a longer period of time? Can someone that is qualified to answer, provide some insight to this?
 
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phil8192":29kzf4vw said:
"The science was and still is robust."

Only a fanboy or a fool would make such a statement, when it's been adequately demonstrated that the climate change "science" is all crap.

Don't try to lie to my plants. They don't read newspapers, watch television or listen to radio propaganda. When established plants in my garden bloom a month later than they did 5-10 years ago, they're telling us that it's colder than a decade ago, not warmer.

This is probably why some many denialist have a problem with accepting the science. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence against AGW. Just because it doesnt effect you immediatly doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Perhaps if you took the time to read up on the science, you opinions might be better informed and you might be able to provide some solid reasons why you think AGW is not happening instead of this common BS.
 
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Jtomage

Seniorius Lurkius
12
XavierItzmann":basc2ytk said:
«
From: Phil Jones
To: "Michael E. Mann"
Subject: IPCC & FOI
Date: Thu May 29 11:04:11 2008

Mike,

Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
Keith will do likewise [...] Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? [...]
We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.
I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper!!
Cheers
Phil
»

Nothing to see here, folks, other than a whole lotta white painting.
Please move right along!
I saw that too, that further the belief that this whole Climate Change is just a hoax concocted by libeRATS and Al Gore. Trust the plants if they dont sprout like they usually do it must be the weather, it has nothing to with germination, water, soil, or any of that other bull crap that science tells us that plants need. I had a cactus and survived very well without watering.

I remember seeing similar emails done with Sarah Palin's yahoo email account. But they were mysterious deleted after they were posted and the hacker who got access to her email was found guilty. But Sarah Palin is not Al Gore and is not a lying rat bastard liberal like Al Gore.
 
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