CDC to release guide for life after vaccination—with normalcy still far off

There are small steps toward normal life, but most activities are still out of bounds.

Read the whole story

 

[loctastic]

My parents are 77 (mom) and 75 (dad). They are afraid of nothing. Not getting sick Not dying. Nothing. They don't wear masks unless it's required. They go about their life. They refuse to stay home because they don't know how many good years they have left where they can go enjoy themselves. My dad told me "boy, living in fear isn't much of a living because we all end up on the wrong side of the grass eventually".

I guess it's all about perspective.

I'm just gonna say that I know people like this and it didn't work out so well for them. I hope your parents get the shot at least.

 

[SraCet]

...
That's not what they were tested for. They tested to see whether they would prevent you from having a symptomatic case, and they greatly reduce the chance of that (by 95%). There is also some newer evidence that people who were vaccinated tend to have a lower viral dose when they have an asymptomatic case, and perhaps that they are less likely to have an asymptomatic case.

So it's proven that they reduce -- but do not eliminate -- the chance of a symptomatic case, and there's evidence they reduce the chance of passing on the virus during an asymptomatic case.

But it's not proven at all that "you might as well not have had it" especially if you are concerned about passing on the virus to others.

You're talking about the initial testing they did to determine the effectiveness of the first two mRNA vaccines.

They absolutely tested for asymptomatic cases when testing the Oxford vaccine (I think that was one reason fingered for the less-impressive 70% effectiveness number) and now we're getting data out of Israel where they're using mRNA vaccines and testing for asymptomatic cases which seems to indicate that the vaccines are over 80% effective at preventing asymptomatic cases.

 

[numerobis]

At the risk of being downvoted to oblivion....

I am curious how this audience feels about this scenario. Say you and your adult family members are fully vaccinated. Fauci seems to say you're fine to get together. Great!

Now you want to see some friends. You're not sure of their vaccination status. What do you do? Ask them? Are you going to ask everyone if their vaccinated before you meet up? Is that *your* responsibility, or theirs?

I feel like we are going to get to a point soon where this isn't a theoretical problem. If the risk is low for you and yours, are you going to be asking people you want to spend time with what their risk level is like?

For me, I suggest to people I know to get the vaccine, but I can't make them do it. I don't think shunning them is the right course either. I think I've settled on, "well, you should get the shot, but in the meantime, I hope you don't die". I don't know what else to do.

Currently in Quebec among my friends we only hang out with people who live alone and we check on the use of precautions.

(Not entirely unlike deciding whether to have having sex with someone, really.)

 

[jimisawesome]

My senior coworker just got the second vaccine and assumes hes invulnerable now and wants to go to TGIF with no mask as a celebration. I dont recommend lying to the public but sometimes I wonder whats the best option to people who only hear what they want to hear and glance at headlines.

They already did that at least once. Remember when they said we didn't need to wear masks? Do you think they're being straightforward with us this time?

Oh fuck off with that conspiracy bullshit. You're completely misrepresenting what happened, and the reasons behind it.

How is this conspiracy bullshit when it actually did happen?

In January of 2020 the CDC said people didn't have to wear masks because:
1. They wanted to reserve PPE for medical professionals, instead of having people buy up N95s in a panic.

And yet there was panic buying of PPE equipment from all the major retailers. Also, when hospitals and other medical staff went public about their need for PPE they public went above and beyond with painters and contractors donating their N95 masks to grandmas making cloth masks.

If this was their reason it was stupid and irresponsible because they gained nothing but lost public trust.

2a. They (condescendingly) asserted that lay people would not be using the N95s correctly anyway so they wouldn't be gaining the full benefit. So instead of "here's how to do it right," they said "don't do it" out of elitism and looking for simple messages. For what it's worth, as a professional in the occupational health and safety field, I did the same thing, and it was wrong of me to do so.
2b. It was quite a while until the idea of "some protection is better than none" took hold. Up until spring 2020 the general idea about mask use is that people wearing masks will have a false sense of security and protection, and thus will engage in riskier behavior thinking that they are ok to do so. See also: mask use messaging during West coat wildfires.

How long would public health officials have continued to lie and tell us we are to stupid to wear masks if not for the March 17th NYT oped by Prof Zeynep Tufekci? But sure there was totally a ton of new studies that occurred between March 17th and April 4th when the CDC finally recommended masks.

3. There was no data on how protective face coverings made of fabric were and the prevailing idea was that they were useless. Only in the fall/winter of 2020 did we get actual data from testing that showed what level of protection non traditional face masks (ie not surgical masks and not PPE) provide.

There are 20 years of studies from East Asia about the effectiveness of masks during repository virus outbreaks. That apparently the CDC discovered only after March 17th 2020 when it was laid out to them in a NYT oped from someone outside of the field btw.

4. They (and the world at large) didn't quite yet realize the virulence of this new virus.

Much of this was known by the end of Jan 2020 when it hit Italy.

We're still doing a poor job of messaging, but that's a different issue.

Its not just poor messaging, the CDC is often months behind the science. The CDC finally updated their indoor air quality to include upgraded filtering last weekend. This is something AMC Theaters did last August. Or their recent school opening recommendations that would close over 90% of the schools currently open. Where were they saying closing beaches and parks is stupid its indoors that we need to worry about?



", because guidelines on masking have been changing throughout based on the available data. "

CDC guidelines have not really changed when it comes to masking. They just recently started to talk about double masking or N95/KN95 mask use when that should have been CDC recommendation in November/December. They continue to treat indoor and outdoor the same.

As counterproductive and behind the CDC has been they are still important because every crappy CYA organization will not do anything unless they have CDC guidelines. So the CDC needs to get better fast so money is not wasted on "deep cleaning" and instead spent on MERV 13 filters.
edit for wrong word
edit 2 forgot important point

 

[Navalia Vigilate]

The comment section is a precursor explanation for why it will be impossible to stamp out this virus. Many do not understand how vaccines and virus function. There will be a group that doesn't care about stamping it out, only that they get to do what they want to.

We may not deserve this virus and the long term damage it will impart on humanity, but certainly we will earn the damage. The inability to understand risk and the selflessness required to stamp out a virus does not exist in enough quantity in places like the U.S.

 

[Veritas super omens]

...
No. The vaccines (mostly) prevent you from having a serious case requiring hospitalization. They don't prevent you from getting the disease entirely (mild or asymptomatic case), ...

The mRNA vaccines do prevent you from getting the disease entirely in most cases. Or, at least, if you catch the disease, your immune system eliminates it so effectively that you might as well not have had it.

That's not what they were tested for. They tested to see whether they would prevent you from having a symptomatic case, and they greatly reduce the chance of that (by 95%). There is also some newer evidence that people who were vaccinated tend to have a lower viral dose when they have an asymptomatic case, and perhaps that they are less likely to have an asymptomatic case.

So it's proven that they reduce -- but do not eliminate -- the chance of a symptomatic case, and there's evidence they reduce the chance of passing on the virus during an asymptomatic case.

But it's not proven at all that "you might as well not have had it" especially if you are concerned about passing on the virus to others.

THIS. Its a statistical thing. We don't have enough data to reach any conclusions on the amount of transmission by vaccinated people but historically once you are vaccinated (eg with measles vaccine) you are no longer a significant threat of transmitting the disease. The flu is a different equation because it is so contagious and mutates so quickly that it is nearly impossible to get the R0 below one for long enough to stop human human transmission, which is only part of the problem with those viruses as there are a host of reservoirs aside from human human transmission. Pigs, ducks and chickens are all reservoirs IIRC. While there is some evidence of non human reservoirs of COVID 19 it is nowhere near the literal billions of potential hosts in the meat industry. I really think* we are on track to get this below R0 and then to be an intermittent thing where previously unvaccinated people can get it. If we are really lucky it might disappear completely like SARS COV1.





* regular readers will note that far from being a Pollyanna, I nearly never spin the positive angle on most of these things.

 

[pcr1044]

Local travelling can totally be safe and recommending against it is just why people stop listening to any advices from CDC or other experts. There is just no rationality anymore, only fear enforcement. I had been travelling locally in my state through the entire last year, way before I got vaccinated. Intend to do even more so after vaccination. It is the only thing that saved me and my wife from going bat-shit crazy. Compared to few of my neighbors and (former) friends who fanatically stayed locked down and are basically lost for the society. They gone too far to ever return to normalcy.

I don't understand the mindset that would lead someone to say "It's the only thing that saved me and my wife from going bat-shit crazy".

Really? My wife and I live in a highly vibrant neighborhood in downtown Chicago because we're highly social people - like before the pandemic we were go-out-every-evening-with-different-groups level of highly social. And ya know what? We've been hunkered down and following the rules all year long and we're not going "bat-shit crazy" or even a little bit crazy. We're mature adults who understand the unprecedented circumstances and have - believe it or not! - found many ways to stay occupied, enjoy our lives, and appreciate each other's company. While I can't wait to get our social life back - we're doing just fine.

I am so sorry if this comes across as a personal attack because I don't know you and I don't like to judge people I don't know. But I just seriously don't understand what kind of life someone leads in which 12 months of being safe is driving them "bat-shit crazy". I don't get it.

I TOTALLY understand going crazy if you have 15 screaming kids in the house. I TOTALLY understand going crazy if you're not as fortunate or privileged enough to be comfortable with a reduced ability to get out. I TOTALLY understand going crazy if a psychological or medical condition makes it really hard to be more stationary.

But based on your comments, I don't interpret any of those to be the case. Based on your comments, you're just bored.

(edited for grammar)

 

[SraCet]

The comment section is a precursor explanation for why it will be impossible to stamp out this virus. Many do not understand how vaccines and virus function. There will be a group that doesn't care about stamping it out, only that they get to do what they want to.

We may not deserve this virus and the long term damage it will impart on humanity, but certainly we will earn the damage. The inability to understand risk and the selflessness required to stamp out a virus does not exist in enough quantity in places like the U.S.

The "stamping out the virus" ship sailed a long time ago. Even if we essentially get rid of it in the US, it will continue to exist in other parts of the world. It has become too widespread to avoid that scenario. Note that lots of diseases are not problems in the US but still problems in other places in the world.

The majority of us will get vaccinated over the next 3 months, the Rt of the virus will drop way below 1, and it will essentially be gone by fall, regardless of how much hand-wringing you do about selflessness and the human condition and so forth.

 

[SraCet]

... THIS. Its a statistical thing. We don't have enough data to reach any conclusions on the amount of transmission by vaccinated people ...

You don't like the data we have from the Oxford vaccine testing or the data that's coming out of Israel?

 

[struwell]

I have followed all the guidance, even where it caused friction with my conservative family. But sorry, I'm frickin tired now. When the wife and I are vaccinated, we're going back to normal. The breaking point is already in the past somewhere.

It sounds like staying alive is inconvenient for you. I am very sorry. That must be tough. And you are right, of course! It is definitely true that responsible thing to do is much more closely related to how tired it makes you than anything like protecting other people or science!

 

[Veritas super omens]

... THIS. Its a statistical thing. We don't have enough data to reach any conclusions on the amount of transmission by vaccinated people ...

You don't like the data we have from the Oxford vaccine testing or the data that's coming out of Israel?

We don't have the Oxford vax here. But the results are consistent with what a reasonable person familiar with vaccines would expect. The CDC is (wisely) being hyper cautious until actual studies have been concluded for the vaccines that we do have. I have had both my shots now and the relief is palpable. I am anxiously waiting for my wife to get hers. I will continue to wear a face covering when appropriate as that is the state mandate. My state has done pretty well IMHO. Some really stupid things in the beginning, like closing boat ramps and hiking trails, but overall following the science and being as open as practicable on a county by county basis. We have 3700 per 100,00 which is fourth best.

 

[Rindan]

My senior coworker just got the second vaccine and assumes hes invulnerable now and wants to go to TGIF with no mask as a celebration. I dont recommend lying to the public but sometimes I wonder whats the best option to people who only hear what they want to hear and glance at headlines.

Lying isn't effective. Fauci forever poisoned the well when the message was "don't wear masks, they don't do anything". Coming back around and later explaining that they were worried about hospitals running out of N95s didn't suddenly change the message, it just proved to everyone that the government knowingly lied. They either lied when they said that masks don't do anything or they lied when reversed and said that they did. Either way, everyone got a free pass from that to make up their own story and point to any government contradiction as just more lies.

Seriously, don't lie. The lie will be easily spotted and used as evidence that the government is incompetent, manipulative, and/or malicious.

In this case, I think that their advice is damn close lying again. The messaging seems to be that the vaccine is both very effective and safe, and also does nothing so you even after you get it you must behave like you were before. That's a truly awful message that threads no needles.

IMO, they should just be fully truthful. The vaccines looks pretty effective reducing severity, the trans for transmission, and the chance to get it. So, people who are vaccinated are probably pretty safe, but they are concerned about variants so they'd prefer you not do the follow X high risk activities, where X are the actual high risk activities that keep them up at night, not a vaccinated person and an unvaccinated person hanging out at someone's house watching TV.

Their messaging looks like the abstinence only sex education where they keep screaming that abstinence is the best method; a fact that most people don't give shits about, so you might as well teach them about condoms and risk factors. The same goes here. Sure, COVID-19 abstinence only is the best answer for the vaccinated, but lots of people don't give a shit, and so the government should focus on what ACTUALLY is are the most dangerous activities. Don't tell me everything is dangerous and that abstinence only is the solution. Tell me what you really worry about, or else people will just shrug and make their own judgements on what is 'safe'.

 

[numerobis]

My senior coworker just got the second vaccine and assumes hes invulnerable now and wants to go to TGIF with no mask as a celebration. I dont recommend lying to the public but sometimes I wonder whats the best option to people who only hear what they want to hear and glance at headlines.

Lying isn't effective. Fauci forever poisoned the well when the message was "don't wear masks, they don't do anything". Coming back around and later explaining that they were worried about hospitals running out of N95s didn't suddenly change the message, it just proved to everyone that the government knowingly lied. They either lied when they said that masks don't do anything or they lied when reversed and said that they did. Either way, everyone got a free pass from that to make up their own story and point to any government contradiction as just more lies.

Seriously, don't lie. The lie will be easily spotted and used as evidence that the government is incompetent, manipulative, and/or malicious.

In this case, I think that their advice is damn close lying again. The messaging seems to be that the vaccine is both very effective and safe, and also does nothing so you even after you get it you must behave like you were before. That's a truly awful message that threads no needles.

IMO, they should just be fully truthful. The vaccines looks pretty effective reducing severity, the trans for transmission, and the chance to get it. So, people who are vaccinated are probably pretty safe, but they are concerned about variants so they'd prefer you not do the follow X high risk activities, where X are the actual high risk activities that keep them up at night, not a vaccinated person and an unvaccinated person hanging out at someone's house watching TV.

Their messaging looks like the abstinence only sex education where they keep screaming that abstinence is the best method; a fact that most people don't give shits about, so you might as well teach them about condoms and risk factors. The same goes here. Sure, COVID-19 abstinence only is the best answer for the vaccinated, but lots of people don't give a shit, and so the government should focus on what ACTUALLY is are the most dangerous activities. Don't tell me everything is dangerous and that abstinence only is the solution. Tell me what you really worry about, or else people will just shrug and make their own judgements on what is 'safe'.

They knew that good masks would be useful but worried that people wouldn't be able to wear them properly, and they said exactly that as I fairly clearly recall. Can you point to a time they straight-up lied?

Some public health officials also thought for some reason that masks that weren't perfect were useless -- or even dangerous. That was bonkers.

 

[Rindan]

I have followed all the guidance, even where it caused friction with my conservative family. But sorry, I'm frickin tired now. When the wife and I are vaccinated, we're going back to normal. The breaking point is already in the past somewhere.

It sounds like staying alive is inconvenient for you. I am very sorry. That must be tough. And you are right, of course! It is definitely true that responsible thing to do is much more closely related to how tired it makes you than anything like protecting other people or science!

Do you have any "science" that shows that fully vaccinated people are at a high risk of doom if they go about their business? I was pretty sure that the science was in fact showing that vaccinated people generally don't get sick, and basically never die from COVID-19.

If you are going to scream "follow the science!" then, uh, you should make sure that the "science" agrees with you. All of the evidence is "science" says that the vaccines are effective. Fear that the science is wrong or incomplete (rational fears or not) is what's driving this policy decision; that's not science. It might be prudent public policy, but it isn't "science". "Science" says you are very safe if you are vaccinated.

 

[jimisawesome]

... THIS. Its a statistical thing. We don't have enough data to reach any conclusions on the amount of transmission by vaccinated people ...

You don't like the data we have from the Oxford vaccine testing or the data that's coming out of Israel?

Just spend a minute in a school reopening discussion or even here in the comments and there is going to be a rather sizeable number of people that there will never be enough evidence that the world is safe from covid and if you dare even think of going outside you will instantly die.

States and local governments shut down outside (parks, beaches, playgrounds, trails, etc) on a whole lot less evidence than there is now that the vaccines not only save you from death and hospitalization but also spreading. An example Chicago just started to reopen playgrounds a week ago.

 

[CatBus]

Their messaging looks like the abstinence only sex education where they keep screaming that abstinence is the best method; a fact that most people don't give shits about, so you might as well teach them about condoms and risk factors.

This really terrible comparison has already come up twice in this thread as if it had merit. Abstinence equates with "stay in your house and never get near anyone else". Condoms equate with "go ahead and leave the house, but at least wear a damn mask".

We are already on the "people are just going to want to live their lives, so let's just minimize the risk" plan. It's as if smart people already thought about all of this long before you did.

 

[jimisawesome]

I have followed all the guidance, even where it caused friction with my conservative family. But sorry, I'm frickin tired now. When the wife and I are vaccinated, we're going back to normal. The breaking point is already in the past somewhere.

It sounds like staying alive is inconvenient for you. I am very sorry. That must be tough. And you are right, of course! It is definitely true that responsible thing to do is much more closely related to how tired it makes you than anything like protecting other people or science!

Do you have any "science" that shows that fully vaccinated people are at a high risk of doom if they go about their business? I was pretty sure that the science was in fact showing that vaccinated people generally don't get sick, and basically never die from COVID-19.

If you are going to scream "follow the science!" then, uh, you should make sure that the "science" agrees with you. All of the evidence is "science" says that the vaccines are effective. Fear that the science is wrong or incomplete (rational fears or not) is what's driving this policy decision; that's not science. It might be prudent public policy, but it isn't "science". "Science" says you are very safe if you are vaccinated.

Just to throw numbers at it. If we combined all of the approved vaccines phase 3 data we have exactly 0 Deaths. 0 ICU visits. 1 "serious" COVID illness which required no intervention and was a whopping 1 percentage point of Blood O2 below the cutoff otherwise it would be 0 serious COVID cases from the 3.

 

[jdawgnoonan]

I will follow the guidance after I am vaccinated, however I am confused why if vaccinated you should worry at all or have any restrictions whatsoever with other people who are vaccinated. I am beginning to wonder if the hypochondriacs of the world are driving the policy recommendations.

 

[dmitriko]

Local travelling can totally be safe and recommending against it is just why people stop listening to any advices from CDC or other experts. There is just no rationality anymore, only fear enforcement. I had been travelling locally in my state through the entire last year, way before I got vaccinated. Intend to do even more so after vaccination. It is the only thing that saved me and my wife from going bat-shit crazy. Compared to few of my neighbors and (former) friends who fanatically stayed locked down and are basically lost for the society. They gone too far to ever return to normalcy.

I don't understand the mindset that would lead someone to say "It's the only thing that saved me and my wife from going bat-shit crazy".

Really? My wife and I live in a highly vibrant neighborhood in downtown Chicago because we're highly social people - like before the pandemic we were go-out-every-evening-with-different-groups level of highly social. And ya know what? We've been hunkered down and following the rules all year long and we're not going "bat-shit crazy" or even a little bit crazy. We're mature adults who understand the unprecedented circumstances and have - believe it or not! - found many ways to stay occupied, enjoy our lives, and appreciate each other's company. While I can't wait to get our social life back - we're doing just fine.

I am so sorry if this comes across as a personal attack because I don't know you and I don't like to judge people I don't know. But I just seriously don't understand what kind of life someone leads in which 12 months of being safe is driving them "bat-shit crazy". I don't get it.

I TOTALLY understand going crazy if you have 15 screaming kids in the house. I TOTALLY understand going crazy if you're not as fortunate or privileged enough to be comfortable with a reduced ability to get out. I TOTALLY understand going crazy if a psychological or medical condition makes it really hard to be more stationary.

But based on your comments, I don't interpret any of those to be the case. Based on your comments, you're just bored.

(edited for grammar)

And somehow you believe your mileage is applicable to everybody? Not even going into fine lines between "being bored" and developing depression.

 

[shunted]

It almost seems like people here enjoy being in lockdown or something. I don't avoid Williamsburg just because there's a measles outbreak there, I've been vaccinated. This is no different.

I've been working from home for an entire year in shitty virtual meetings every day. Once the risk reaches an acceptable level we need to get busy living.

 

[numerobis]

It almost seems like people here enjoy being in lockdown or something. I don't avoid Williamsburg just because there's a measles outbreak there, I've been vaccinated. This is no different.

I've been working from home for an entire year in shitty virtual meetings every day. Once the risk reaches an acceptable level we need to get busy living.

Totally agree.

The acceptable level is that there's been no COVID in the community for about two weeks. That's how we know it's been truly eradicated and we can go back to living normally. Otherwise, we just prolong the pain and suffering.

 

[GrandMasterJ]

We still don't know if vaccinated people can carry and spread, don't we? I'm not sure if missed some info on this.

I'm vaccinated but I still wear a mask in public places. Most still require masks and people would feel uncomfortable around you if you're not wearing a mask or outright kick you out. They won't care if you were vaccinated or not. I know we're fatigued, I know I am as hell, but let's not fuck this up when we're getting close to ending this.

MD here. Based on some of the data coming out, there is reduced risk of asymptomatic infection, and therefore, reduced risk of asymptomatic transmission by vaccinated individuals. However, there will always be a risk of some people’s immune responses slipping through the cracks so I’m sure there is a nonzero chance of asymptomatic transmission. In my personal opinion, we need to enforce masks in all public areas until most people have been vaccinated. Otherwise there is nothing stopping individuals from claiming they are vaccinated and just throw away their mask.

Exactly what I overheard my elderly father say he was going to do. Yay for narcissists (which seem to have increased substantially the last 4ish years)! So, as mentioned, that's the exact reason we should enforce the same standard for everyone because people like this would endanger others for their own selfish [non]reasons.

I do hope the reusable rechargeable self-sanitizing silicone-edged N95 masks make an appearance soon.

 

[FastidiousMastiff]

They absolutely tested for asymptomatic cases when testing the Oxford vaccine (I think that was one reason fingered for the less-impressive 70% effectiveness number) and now we're getting data out of Israel where they're using mRNA vaccines and testing for asymptomatic cases which seems to indicate that the vaccines are over 80% effective at preventing asymptomatic cases.

No, not really.

'They' did so for the UK part of the trial, but that is not what the overall study primary outcome was, and this was not assessed overall. The UK-only data (specifically 'COV002') would have to be broken out from the SA and Brazil data, but they didn't do that because it would fry the statistical power achieved by pooling the four studies in the first place.

The full text of the Lancet safety and efficacy publication is HERE.

Note the following:

In Brazil, there was no testing plan for asymptomatic infections.
In South Africa, asymptomatic infections were detected from swabs obtained at study visits attended, but are not summarised here as there were only a small number of timepoints for detection of these cases.

Oxford/AX are not crooks, so this was specified quite clearly in the description of the primary outcome:

The primary outcome was virologically confirmed, symptomatic COVID-19, defined as a NAAT-positive swab combined with at least one qualifying symptom (fever ≥37·8°C, cough, shortness of breath, or anosmia or ageusia).

 

[dracusoara]

My senior coworker just got the second vaccine and assumes hes invulnerable now and wants to go to TGIF with no mask as a celebration. I dont recommend lying to the public but sometimes I wonder whats the best option to people who only hear what they want to hear and glance at headlines.

They already did that at least once. Remember when they said we didn't need to wear masks? Do you think they're being straightforward with us this time?

Oh fuck off with that conspiracy bullshit. You're completely misrepresenting what happened, and the reasons behind it.

There's one other perspective. Non-medical masks and medical masks used improperly do in fact only offer some protection from others. But they are pretty effective at keeping you from infecting others. Particles are slowed or caught by the mask rather than spreading. The virus doesn't last long on surfaces, so if you can prevent others from breathing your unfiltered air it helps a lot. In other words, say it don't spray it.

Yup, they do indeed. The idea of masking for source control did not really come into the wider conversation until March/April. And I feel like it wasn't emphasized enough.

 

[lost_gweedo]

I have followed all the guidance, even where it caused friction with my conservative family. But sorry, I'm frickin tired now. When the wife and I are vaccinated, we're going back to normal. The breaking point is already in the past somewhere.

I don't blame you. I think the CDC's hesitancy to tell people that, yes, actually you can ease up on some things once you're vaccinated is unintentionally causing reactions like yours. It's good to see them update their messaging, although I fear it's a case of too little, too late.

Once people are vaccinated, I see no reason why they can't meet up in small groups with other vaccinated people outdoors. Heck, it's probably not THAT risky to meet with 2-3 other vaccinated people indoors, although if you're meeting people outside of your immediate family, you should still wear a mask for the time being IMO.

The important thing is to avoid doing riskier stuff, like going to indoor restaurants and bars, spending a lot of time around unvaccinated, unmasked people, and refusing to wear a mask in crowded, public areas.

To follow your train of thought...if being vaccinated means that I cannot go to a indoor restaurant, when can I? Not trying to be a jerk, but what's the point of the vaccine? I plan to get it, but if I'm not going to be allowed to rejoin society until some magic number has been reached that's independent of the population % that's been vaccinated, then what's the point? The vaccine rates of protection, symptom reduction and retransmission are very favorable. If we're following the science, then once you're fully vaccinated there's no reason continue living this way.

 

[lolnova]

The comment section is a precursor explanation for why it will be impossible to stamp out this virus. Many do not understand how vaccines and virus function. There will be a group that doesn't care about stamping it out, only that they get to do what they want to.

Eradication was fully off the table by December 2019. Give it up.

 

[Deleted member 807857]

Please tell me how to live my life day today. Couldn't do without authoritarians like L Ron Hubbard controlling every damn thing I do.

Isn't he dead? Who is forcing you to join scientology?

Yeah, I was pretty confused by this one, too

 

[numerobis]

The comment section is a precursor explanation for why it will be impossible to stamp out this virus. Many do not understand how vaccines and virus function. There will be a group that doesn't care about stamping it out, only that they get to do what they want to.

Eradication was fully off the table by December 2019. Give it up.

That will be news to rather a lot of countries.

 

[Jon Smythe]

Fatigue is real, the desire for a return to normalcy is real. Now imagine you were a frontline healthcare worker this whole time and show some maturity and perspective about your own situation.

The current generations could have of never won World War II. Watch The War | PBS to see what people had to go through back then for years. The current generations are a bunch of limp-wristed namby-pamby wet noodles that can't even wear a mask without going full on wah-wah-wah.

 

[SraCet]

I will follow the guidance after I am vaccinated, however I am confused why if vaccinated you should worry at all or have any restrictions whatsoever with other people who are vaccinated. I am beginning to wonder if the hypochondriacs of the world are driving the policy recommendations.

Well, two thoughts.

One: Most of us have spent the last year waging the "Covid is a real thing" war with certain friends and family, and making huge personal sacrifices on the basis that Covid is very dangerous. If anybody claims that Covid isn't actually that bad (for whatever reason), the instinct is going to be to disagree with that person. That mindset is probably going to take a long time to change for some people, regardless of what the data about vaccines and Rt and everything else indicates.

Two: Some news outlets are worse than others about this, but there's a definite market for "Covid porn" (like disaster porn), and a lot of mainstream news outlets are happily publishing worst-case speculation and scenarios and basically getting people scared for no reason other than to generate clicks and ad revenue. So that's frustrating.

 

[numerobis]

I will follow the guidance after I am vaccinated, however I am confused why if vaccinated you should worry at all or have any restrictions whatsoever with other people who are vaccinated. I am beginning to wonder if the hypochondriacs of the world are driving the policy recommendations.

Because vaccination isn't 100% protection. Keeping restrictions in just a bit longer -- an extra month or two wearing a mask -- saves lives and ends the epidemic faster.

Also, if a bunch of vaccinated people stop wearing masks, a bunch of non-vaccinated people will stop wearing masks too. An awful lot of people only follow restrictions due to peer pressure.

 

[SraCet]

...
Because vaccination isn't 100% protection. Keeping restrictions in just a bit longer -- an extra month or two wearing a mask -- saves lives and ends the epidemic faster.

Except the mRNA vaccines are 100% protection, aren't they? Has anybody been vaccinated with one of these vaccines and had serious symptoms?

Also, if a bunch of vaccinated people stop wearing masks, a bunch of non-vaccinated people will stop wearing masks too. An awful lot of people only follow restrictions due to peer pressure.

As I posted above, I don't think anybody is suggesting that vaccinated people stop wearing masks in public. There's no practical way to tell who's vaccinated and who isn't, in public, so we all just have to keep wearing masks in public until everybody has had the chance to get vaccinated.

But I see no reason why vaccinated people should avoid getting together indoors with or without masks if they want. And I say that as somebody who will be almost last to get a vaccine.

 

[lolnova]

The comment section is a precursor explanation for why it will be impossible to stamp out this virus. Many do not understand how vaccines and virus function. There will be a group that doesn't care about stamping it out, only that they get to do what they want to.

Eradication was fully off the table by December 2019. Give it up.

That will be news to rather a lot of countries.

SARS-CoV-2 will not be eradicated, full stop. It is not happening. Not this year, not next year, not ever.

 

[jimisawesome]

I will follow the guidance after I am vaccinated, however I am confused why if vaccinated you should worry at all or have any restrictions whatsoever with other people who are vaccinated. I am beginning to wonder if the hypochondriacs of the world are driving the policy recommendations.

Because vaccination isn't 100% protection. Keeping restrictions in just a bit longer -- an extra month or two wearing a mask -- saves lives and ends the epidemic faster.

Also, if a bunch of vaccinated people stop wearing masks, a bunch of non-vaccinated people will stop wearing masks too. An awful lot of people only follow restrictions due to peer pressure.

This is yet another problem with the CDC messaging. We are so close by June we will have every adult that wants a shot with a shot, hell we are a few weeks from most seniors having a shot that want one. Yet instead of saying it looks promising that we can lift mask and social distancing this summer its ultra-conservative language like foreseeable future which is frankly not supported by the evidence coming out every day now.

Contra to what public health officials think of the public we are not completely stupid. We can see or read that vaccinated people are at low risk to spread. So the people that would understand give it a few more months to make sure everyone is good are going to be I want to hug my grandkid now F this 2022 I might be dead by then. A 30 year old will have to start asking why they need one when nothing in their life improves and none of their friends are dying because 6500 people under 35 have died from COVID in the US.

 

[numerobis]

...
Because vaccination isn't 100% protection. Keeping restrictions in just a bit longer -- an extra month or two wearing a mask -- saves lives and ends the epidemic faster.

Except the mRNA vaccines are 100% protection, aren't they? Has anybody been vaccinated with one of these vaccines and had serious symptoms?

Also, if a bunch of vaccinated people stop wearing masks, a bunch of non-vaccinated people will stop wearing masks too. An awful lot of people only follow restrictions due to peer pressure.

As I posted above, I don't think anybody is suggesting that vaccinated people stop wearing masks in public. There's no practical way to tell who's vaccinated and who isn't, in public, so we all just have to keep wearing masks in public until everybody has had the chance to get vaccinated.

But I see no reason why vaccinated people should avoid getting together indoors with or without masks if they want. And I say that as somebody who will be almost last to get a vaccine.

They're ~95% protection against symptomatic infections in the common strains from last fall.

We expect this means they offer substantial protection against spreading infection but we don't have great data for that; the best you've dug up is they seem to provide ~85% protection against any infection, whether or not symptomatic, which strongly suggests at least 85% protection against being able to spread the disease.

There's no reason to believe they're 100% effective against transmitting disease and they clearly aren't 100% effective against infection.

In NZ then sure, walk around freely when you've been vaccinated... or even if you haven't, since there's no community spread (except in Auckland this week).

In the US, disease rates are ridiculously high right now -- much higher than the July peak, and increasing. Do everything possible to get the rates down, and *then* go ahead and walk around freely. It's not going to be much more time and it'll reduce the total amount of time during which people are getting sick, and the total number getting sick. This whole pandemic we've been failing the marshmallow test over and over, we're dumber than cuttlefish.

 

[numerobis]

The comment section is a precursor explanation for why it will be impossible to stamp out this virus. Many do not understand how vaccines and virus function. There will be a group that doesn't care about stamping it out, only that they get to do what they want to.

Eradication was fully off the table by December 2019. Give it up.

That will be news to rather a lot of countries.

SARS-CoV-2 will not be eradicated, full stop. It is not happening. Not this year, not next year, not ever.

Not with that attitude; it'll take work, and giving up ahead of time means you won't do the work.

If we decide to work at it we can wipe it out via vaccines and targeted containment, because it doesn't seem to have animal reservoirs.

What has animal reservoirs is the SARS family in general. We'll need to be vigilant for SARS-CoV-3 which will likely be with us in a few years; probably it won't be a big deal because we'll be able to whip up a vaccine in no time. Maybe we can inoculate camels and wipe out MERS while we're at it.

 

[RunSilent23]

We have to remember the CDC's mission is disease control. Their recommendations are going to be centered around that. But life is more than avoiding disease, or at least it should be. We have to take some risks and get back to normal. Some states will open up sooner and others will be more measured. That's okay. We can pivot if we find success or failure in either approach.

 

[numerobis]

We have to remember the CDC's mission is disease control. Their recommendations are going to be centered around that. But life is more than avoiding disease, or at least it should be. We have to take some risks and get back to normal. Some states will open up sooner and others will be more measured. That's okay. We can pivot if we find success or failure in either approach.

You can mash C-z all you want, the dead Texans from their current policy aren't coming back.

 

[dracusoara]

I have followed all the guidance, even where it caused friction with my conservative family. But sorry, I'm frickin tired now. When the wife and I are vaccinated, we're going back to normal. The breaking point is already in the past somewhere.

I don't blame you. I think the CDC's hesitancy to tell people that, yes, actually you can ease up on some things once you're vaccinated is unintentionally causing reactions like yours. It's good to see them update their messaging, although I fear it's a case of too little, too late.

Once people are vaccinated, I see no reason why they can't meet up in small groups with other vaccinated people outdoors. Heck, it's probably not THAT risky to meet with 2-3 other vaccinated people indoors, although if you're meeting people outside of your immediate family, you should still wear a mask for the time being IMO.

The important thing is to avoid doing riskier stuff, like going to indoor restaurants and bars, spending a lot of time around unvaccinated, unmasked people, and refusing to wear a mask in crowded, public areas.

To follow your train of thought...if being vaccinated means that I cannot go to a indoor restaurant, when can I? Not trying to be a jerk, but what's the point of the vaccine? I plan to get it, but if I'm not going to be allowed to rejoin society until some magic number has been reached that's independent of the population % that's been vaccinated, then what's the point? The vaccine rates of protection, symptom reduction and retransmission are very favorable. If we're following the science, then once you're fully vaccinated there's no reason continue living this way.

You're being asked to continue living this way for a little while longer. Less than 7% of the US population is vaccinated, and we don't yet have clear data on asymptomatic cases among the vaccinated population, and likelihood of asymptomatic cases transmitting the disease to someone who is not vaccinated. The data is positive, but we don't have enough to call it. And if the wrong call is made, then even more people will die.

The reason why we talk about herd immunity and not just personal immunity is because our individual biochemical processes are vast enough that there's no guarantee that an individual will actually become immune. Statistically it's likely, but with all vaccines there's a very small percentage that does not develop immunity, and a small percentage that develops a less strong immunity and thus can still get infected.

So just cool your damn jets another few months, restrict your in person indoor interactions with people who've been vaccinated, and don't fuck it up for the rest of us.

 

[dracusoara]

My senior coworker just got the second vaccine and assumes hes invulnerable now and wants to go to TGIF with no mask as a celebration. I dont recommend lying to the public but sometimes I wonder whats the best option to people who only hear what they want to hear and glance at headlines.

They already did that at least once. Remember when they said we didn't need to wear masks? Do you think they're being straightforward with us this time?

Oh fuck off with that conspiracy bullshit. You're completely misrepresenting what happened, and the reasons behind it.

How is this conspiracy bullshit when it actually did happen?

It's conspiracy bullshit to say that because the CDC said "masks for the general public don't work" at the beginning of the pandemic, we therefore cannot trust anything the CDC says.

As to the rest of your points, I will point out that the CDC was run by a moron and the entire executive branch was hellbent on underplaying the seriousness of the situation, so no fucking wonder that there were all these issues that you listed. But competent people are back in charge, so the CDC will be far more on the ball now.

Believe me, as a public health professional I am livid at how badly behind the curve the CDC has been. But I also realize where that comes from, and that it's not the fault of the overall agency, just its leadership.