CBS caved to Trump—now he’s seeking punishments for ABC and NBC

Trump says ABC and NBC "give me 97% BAD STORIES," urges FCC to revoke licenses.

See full article...

 

[Fluppeteer]

US CNN, and US MSNBC are absolutely horrible stations, and much worse than their European versions, but don't both sides this. Fox and Sinclair local news are V-for vendetta or North Korean propaganda, the non-extreme-right stations are just bad, not surreal, to point of being mistaking for satire, BS.

Btw. From a non-UK point of view BBC used to be pretty good, but has the last 5 years had several instances of homo- and especially trans-phobia, and is usually on the (geno)side of the current conflict in Israel.

Edit: Of course dont both or three side this. The BBC is basically angelic perfect TV news compared to US news network. Just pointing out how pointless otherwise correct criticism can be when compared to extreme examples.

Oh absolutely, the BBC is not perfect, particularly when it comes to LGBTQ.

And yes, the right wing news is especially abominable. I just found that flipping to left-wing news channels wasn't doing enough to reduce my blood pressure, at least in the way the presenters were framing things. That they were reporting actions by the administration that were stressful and the right were ignoring them didn't help, of course!

 

[Sajuuk]

I don't think I'm confused about what they believe. But I do think there are, often, identifiable ways that they came to believe it. That gives some chance of leverage to change (some) minds, without using a bullet to rearrange them.

If MAGA controls the media and has a "saving us from evil liberals" message, and the response of the left is "all Republicans are evil", how do you expect to persuade undecided voters? I know the US news likes its shouting matches, but they're rarely persuasive.

We already have one side who has caused great rents in society by doommongering. I don't think ceding them the win on that is good.

I am a genuine believer in the phrase “society advances one death at a time,” so to be perfectly honest I have exactly zero expectation of changing hearts and minds. Anyone undecided about Trump and his ilk today is a lost cause, and the ground is already ceded.

Nazi Germany did not fall from hugs and kisses, it fell through conflagration.

 

[smallscreensw]

Oh, so he's really complaining about broadcasters telling the truth about him. The industry should push back forcefully but, as the CBS thing shows, they are all lovers of money. And conservatives of all stripes are fine with his antics.

The next pendulum swing back to the left or middle should be equally punitive to right-wingers.

 

[Fluppeteer]

I am a genuine believer in the phrase “society advances one death at a time,” so to be perfectly honest I have exactly zero expectation of changing hearts and minds. Anyone undecided about Trump and his ilk today is a lost cause, and the ground is already ceded.

Nazi Germany did not fall from hugs and kisses, it fell through conflagration.

I don't disagree that this may be the case. I just don't think the solution is to sit back and let it happen. In Nazi Germany, the Russians and the British rolled into Berlin (along with the US forces). Russia may be up for it, but please don't make us Brits have a go. It was very expensive last time, and we've kind of run out of empire to fund it.

 

[smallscreensw]

If the democrats regain power at some point in the future, the absolute first thing they do better be to re-instate some updated version of the fairness doctrine and revoke Fox's licenses. Big "if" though, I'm not holding my breath.

They need to show some rage, anger and Gavin Newsom-style playfulness first. The playing by the book ethic is weak and this administration is counting on folks to be servile and orderly that way...so it can dehumanize and destroy them.

 

[Socially Inept]

Ok. You're angry. You're frustrated. You want to take those who have enabled the abominations of the current administration and burn them all in hell. Some have actually talked about arming themselves, because the irrational behaviour of some republicans has led them to believe a civil war is coming anyway.

Nobody said nothing should be done. Nobody said it was ok to give a pass to republican policies, or "compromise" on some perceived middle ground, or "give in to bullies".

But which undecided (non-)voters are you expecting to appeal to by saying you're the voice of reason while asserting that (in the perception of the listener) everyone who disagrees with you is a nazi? Which moderate republicans are you expecting to convert by refusing to engage?

I appreciate that waving guns around at minimal provocation seems to be part of American culture, but it shouldn't be a goal. It is better not to give people doubt about whether you're the reasonable side. A lot of people voted Trump because they voted against the democrats, not because they like Trump. There are MAGA fanatics for whom he can do no wrong, and there's little to be done to deprogram them until Trump's inconsistencies eventually land home and the administration implodes.

But there are a lot of people who the left could reasonably talk to. Explain that lies are lies. Don't make them true, or make yourself unbelievable. Explain there's no violent conspiracy to take over the country. Don't create one.

Show balance. Own up when democrats make mistakes. Don't look like you're hiding things. But certainly don't shy away from criticising all the bad things the right are doing, because then you can compare them against relatively minor infractions (like a possible paperwork issue on a mortgage form). Many reports show that the right wing media just aren't telling Trump supporters about a lot of what's going on; if you talk to them and seem credible, some will listen. Acknowledge that the left wing media has some bias, then you can compare against the much stronger bias on the right wing.

Don't assume that people who want to talk, engage, persuade and even heal are just enabling the right. They're the ones not giving up, and trying to find a way out without resorting to a national epidemic of acute lead poisoning.

Yes, I get downvoted every time I say something like this, because while I agree with the majority of the Ars readership on the vast majority of issues and find the current administration to be an abomination, I seem not to share their militancy about it. I'm sure that's about to happen again, but I have to keep trying to restore calm. I'm not happy having Ars shut down because someone decides it's breeding left-wing terrorists, and however much some are just venting harmlessly, that is how it can come across.

However it happens, I hope the US returns to a more liberal, democratic, rational society, and soon. And I hope it can stay that way, and we don't have a vast amount of bloodshed in the process. Good luck. We're all counting on you.

I don't know what you intended to convey with this message, but all I got out of it was one word: Wait.

Wait. For the administration to take effective control over all the news media.

Wait. For the Republican-controlled states to gerrymander complete control of the electoral college.

Wait. For the eventual sham of the mid-term elections to reinforce the "mandate" already enjoyed by the administration.

Wait. For more National Guard and other military units to be deployed into "unruly" cities to "keep the peace."

Wait. For more Alcatrazs and Guantanamo Bays to be built, staffed, and opened for business.

Wait. For more Americans to be taken off the street or out of airports and incarcerated, shipped to foreign prison camps, or flat disappeared.

Wait. For the courts to certify not just the legitimacy but also the infallibility of the current administration.

Wait. Until these fuckers are further entrenched, secure more power, and are more practiced at wielding their power.

These forums are littered with stories about parents, siblings, and best friends who have been lost to Fox News and other right-wing information outlets. Casual friends, acquaintances, and neighbors who were once on the periphery of "conservative values" but have now fallen completely for "you know the ones."

Surely you must have seen the inevitable pissing contest of;

It started with Reagan.

No, it started with Nixon.

No, Reconstruction was ended too soon.

No, the Founding Fathers were largely slaveowners and wrote "three-fifths of a person" into the Constitution.

Waiting has been done. Reaching out has been attempted. Reasonable arguments have been presented. Appeals to emotion have been offered. And the situation only continues to get worse.

 

[smallscreensw]

As much as I hate to give credit to Murdoch for anything good in the world, it looks like that if anyone is going to grow a spine and tell Trump to fuck off, it's going to be Rupert.

The Journal recently said that Trump has turned out to be much worse than they expected. I just hope the investor class was paying attention when they said it.

 

[smallscreensw]

I don't know what you intended to convey with this message, but all I got out of it was one word: Wait.

Wait. For the administration to take effective control over all the news media.

Wait. For the Republican-controlled states to gerrymander complete control of the electoral college.

Wait. For the eventual sham of the mid-term elections to reinforce the "mandate" already enjoyed by the administration.

Wait. For more National Guard and other military units to be deployed into "unruly" cities to "keep the peace."

Wait. For more Alcatrazs and Guantanamo Bays to be built, staffed, and opened for business.

Wait. For more Americans to be taken off the street or out of airports and incarcerated, shipped to foreign prison camps, or flat disappeared.

Wait. For the courts to certify not just the legitimacy but also the infallibility of the current administration.

Wait. Until these fuckers are further entrenched, secure more power, and are more practiced at wielding their power.

These forums are littered with stories about parents, siblings, and best friends who have been lost to Fox News and other right-wing information outlets. Casual friends, acquaintances, and neighbors who were once on the periphery of "conservative values" but have now fallen completely for "you know the ones."

Surely you must have seen the inevitable pissing contest of;

It started with Reagan.

No, it started with Nixon.

No, Reconstruction was ended too soon.

No, the Founding Fathers were largely slaveowners and wrote "three-fifths of a person" into the Constitution.

Waiting has been done. Reaching out has been attempted. Reasonable arguments have been presented. Appeals to emotion have been offered. And the situation only continues to get worse.

Excellent summation. And all of that was what led to the first Civil War. I don't see the US endlessly plummeting towards oblivion, though, as some seem to believe is inevitable. This country has always surprised the world somehow. I'd like to believe the spring is being wound up tightly these days, but there will absolutely be a tension release at some point. The more tense the spring is wound, the more dramatic the release will be.

 

[Sajuuk]

I don't disagree that this may be the case. I just don't think the solution is to sit back and let it happen. In Nazi Germany, the Russians and the British rolled into Berlin (along with the US forces). Russia may be up for it, but please don't make us Brits have a go. It was very expensive last time, and we've kind of run out of empire to fund it.

America passed on solving our current problems about 40 years ago. Fascism is ascendant here by the choice and affirmation of Americans themselves, and it is historically difficult to stop a society from willfully and happily immolating itself.

 

[cameron2]

We cannot touch President Childmolester, but we can make the lives of his cultist supporters miserable. At every opportunity, make them see the pain and destruction that they are responsible for. Show them how they support the work of (according to their own gospels) the anti-Christ. Do not shy away from this responsibility.
https://www.benjaminlcorey.com/coul...he-antichrist-heres-the-biblical-predictions/

 

[Fluppeteer]

I don't know what you intended to convey with this message, but all I got out of it was one word: Wait.

Wait. For the administration to take effective control over all the news media.

Wait. For the Republican-controlled states to gerrymander complete control of the electoral college.

Wait. For the eventual sham of the mid-term elections to reinforce the "mandate" already enjoyed by the administration.

Wait. For more National Guard and other military units to be deployed into "unruly" cities to "keep the peace."

Wait. For more Alcatrazs and Guantanamo Bays to be built, staffed, and opened for business.

Wait. For more Americans to be taken off the street or out of airports and incarcerated, shipped to foreign prison camps, or flat disappeared.

Wait. For the courts to certify not just the legitimacy but also the infallibility of the current administration.

Wait. Until these fuckers are further entrenched, secure more power, and are more practiced at wielding their power.

These forums are littered with stories about parents, siblings, and best friends who have been lost to Fox News and other right-wing information outlets. Casual friends, acquaintances, and neighbors who were once on the periphery of "conservative values" but have now fallen completely for "you know the ones."

Surely you must have seen the inevitable pissing contest of;

It started with Reagan.

No, it started with Nixon.

No, Reconstruction was ended too soon.

No, the Founding Fathers were largely slaveowners and wrote "three-fifths of a person" into the Constitution.

Waiting has been done. Reaching out has been attempted. Reasonable arguments have been presented. Appeals to emotion have been offered. And the situation only continues to get worse.

Exactly what I'm not suggesting. To me, it sounds as though those saying that it's impossible to communicate with Republicans are the ones suggesting inaction. Those who only want to persist in a left-wing echo chamber. Those who can find no way to change the parts of society that have views which are anathema to them (and me), and have no interest in trying to do so.

I'm not suggesting it's easy. I'm not suggesting it always works. I'm not even suggesting it'll work this time. I'm certainly not suggesting that nobody has tried.

But there are two ways of getting a majority of people to agree with you. One is to persuade the ones who disagree. The other is to get rid of them instead. It may not be what you mean - I hope it's not what you mean - but I hear "Republicans are a lost cause" and all I can think is "this person is gearing up for a civil war". I really hope someone has a better plan. And I hope it's not praying very hard and hoping everyone will change their mind on their own.

In the meantime, go to rallies, raise legal objections, call out every abomination of the current administration. (This is a really bad time to be applying for an ESTA, isn't it?) Be hard to ignore. But if we accept that Republicans are a lost cause, and that the administration controls the legal system and the media, I don't really see it being enough to get through to people unless there's some reaching across the divide. Good luck if that's what you intend, though. It's not like China suddenly became liberal and open after Tiananmen.

Don't get me wrong. Humans are, on average, horrible people. It still doesn't stop me interacting with them.

 

[nerdrage]

I am betting that ABC and NBC will not capitulate because they are not in the midst of merger negotiations. After reading about the sale of CBS in the NYTimes, I could see that the owner was sick and tired of all the legal baloney, and was going to do whatever it took to get rid of the albatross.

Shari Redstone was drooling over her fat payday when the merger went thru. Trump saw an opportunity for blackmail and extorted a much smaller mount, which made sense to Redstone, who took the money and ran.

ABC is owned by Disney. No mergers on the horizon. They are doing better in the transition to streaming than any of the other studios.

NBC is owned by Comcast. Their entertainment business is iffy. Peacock is never going to make the grade, it's even more of a no-hoper than Paramount+. I could see a merger involving some combo of Comcast's NBCUniversal property, Paramount and Warners, and if Trump is still president then, he could try getting cute again.

 

[TVPaulD]

It has got to implode at some point. What would have happened to Nazi Germany if they succeeded. Jews, gipsies, gay, you name it, all gone. Only blond aric blue eyed German genes to blame for everything that goes wrong. I can't imagine it being sustainable. Or would they finally be content, and live happily ever after in piece and harmony. Somehow, I doubt that.
It would be an interesting experiment. Put nothing but extreme right wingers on an island and see what happens. Law and order island.

Yes, exactly. White supremacy and fascism generally are ultimately death cults. They cannot exist without an “other” who must be destroyed. So once the “other” is destroyed, a new one is created from that which remains. Unchecked, it will lead to precisely two individuals who promptly stab each other to death rather than bear the indignity of “sharing” the “prize” of being the last one standing.

As someone who visits the US fairly regularly, I don't dare put the news on in a hotel room (except when I'm out and trying to make the room seem occupied). It's pretty shocking how the news is always presented with a political bias - by both sides, although obviously one comes across as significantly more raving lunatic than the other. There is factual truth out there (subject to philosophical debate), but the US news shows don't often present it without commentary. It doesn't help that a lot of recent news is actively political and at least one side (reporters and party) seems very willing to hallucinate facts.

The BBC is absolutely not free from a number of biases or political influence, but at least it nominally has a mandate for balance (for better or worse). It also has an explicit fact check section (the writers of which you can see getting more frustrated every time Trump tweets). The difference between countries is pretty stark. The printed press in the UK is another matter; we're not perfect.

Completely dissociating from the news is probably not a good solution, although it would certainly be less depressing these days. Checking a bias-check web site is admittedly a bit more work. Is Ground News any good? I've not tried it.

The BBC is not remotely balanced. The “nominal” balance it pursues is an irrelevance. The purpose of a system is what it does. And what the BBC’s system does is tilt the scales. They just don’t do it in the blatant manner of Fox News or The Daily Mail.

Numerous studies have shown the BBC is significantly biased. Historically it was biased towards “fairness” (effectively bias towards undue balance, like reporting both on the global scientific consensus of climate change and on fringe idiots denying it as if equally valid perspectives) and towards the status quo, though more recently it has been explicitly right wing biased, initially because of government pressure from the Cameron regime but over time and more practically because they took to using the wider print media landscape as the Overton window to deflect the persistent bad faith accusations from the right of a left wing bias (which was at that point largely just them sometimes letting reality colour their otherwise already right wing favouring reporting as with a right wing government in power that position was status quo) and the print media has an overwhelming right wing bias.

The UK is not some panacea. We are on our own slow march to fascism enabled largely by the likes of the BBC giving undue prominence to the extreme views of fringe racist agitators like Nigel Farage, to the point he is now a relatively mainstream political figure and odds on favourite to emerge from the next General Election as Prime Minister.

By and large, the US news media is not significantly more politically slanted than British news media, the tenor just makes it more obvious what’s happening in the US broadcast news than the UK broadcast news. That isn’t necessarily a positive for the UK’s broadcast news.

Fair (as I understand it). The thing is, all the TV news on the main TV channels in the UK is reasonably balanced (because they're publicly funded or competing with the BBC). You have to go out of your way to find political ranting (or read a newspaper). I should probably hunt out PBS in the US (if I still can), but after wading through enough channels on a hotel TV and screaming at the biased political commentary I generally gave up before I found it. Does it actually have rolling news updates? Otherwise I probably tend to hit reruns of BBC content that I've seen...

This isn’t true at all. The broadcast media in the UK is less overtly biased than the print media because it is regulated and the print media is not. Literally only the BBC is publicly funded, every other broadcast outlet is funded primarily through advertising revenue and all others bar Channel 4 are privately owned. And the general tenor of the BBC’s coverage is, nonetheless, still biased as discussed. GB News is approximately as deranged and biased as Fox News, because while there is a regulator they have proven rather toothless once confronted with a broadcaster willing to simply flout the rules. You don’t have to go out of your way to find them. They are carried nationally on Sky Satellite & TVOIP, Virgin Media Cable, Freesat Satellite, OTA on Freeview and on Freely TVOIP.

 

[Derecho Imminent]

The cbs "agreement" is only binding while Trump is president. That is, it is only enforceable with Trump's extralegal threats.

 

[Carewolf]

Oh absolutely, the BBC is not perfect, particularly when it comes to LGBTQ.

And yes, the right wing news is especially abominable. I just found that flipping to left-wing news channels wasn't doing enough to reduce my blood pressure, at least in the way the presenters were framing things. That they were reporting actions by the administration that were stressful and the right were ignoring them didn't help, of course!

There are no left wing news channels in the US, at least not any big ones, at best a few channels on YouTube. The TV channels that are accused of being left-wing are all solidly center-right, slightly to the right of European conservatives. And yes, they are all pretty bad, but they are neither far right propaganda, or even remotely left-wing except in the eyes of the far right propaganda. Which is probably why you are downvoted, stupidly parroting far right-wing propaganda.

 

[Fluppeteer]

@TVPaulD : I don't disagree. The BBC absolutely has a bias, and bowing to government pressure makes it more so. But, as you say, it's much less overt about it than typical US news channels and the UK print media. At least I have some faith of hearing news based on more than a political agenda. I was thinking of C4 news as an alternative; I actually don't personally have access to Sky news any more (I have enough streaming services that I didn't feel the need), although I do recall their bias. It's true that Sky is not uncommon, though nor is it ubiquitous.

@Carewolf : Maybe I'm misremembering. My experience of US television news was so intolerable that I've now avoided it for some years. If you tell me that I never actually saw anything left leaning at all (or saw it only immediately after something so blatantly far right that I was considering it in relative terms), I believe you. With the BBC I look for bias in the stories; with Fox I'd not expect to hear stories unless they were biased.

I'm juggling threads, sorry. What did I parrot? I've been downvoted a lot, so that doesn't narrow it down much. I'm pretty sure the MAGA crowd aren't arguing for unity, tolerance, bridge-building, and non-violent solutions. I've been on protests, but the far right media and the administration are remarkably capable of hallucinating a huge turnout at pro-Trump rallies and ignoring large crowds who disagree with them, and my experience of protests has been that those who don't already agree with the cause tend to find them primarily an inconvenience, not a rallying cry. Not to put people off protesting, I just don't expect it to change much.

 

[Socially Inept]

... But if we accept that Republicans are a lost cause, and that the administration controls the legal system and the media, I don't really see it being enough to get through to people unless there's some reaching across the divide. Good luck if that's what you intend, though. It's not like China suddenly became liberal and open after Tiananmen.

Correct. The first German concentration camps were established in 1933, the same year Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor, for the purpose of housing the political opponents of the Nazi regime. Nazi Germany was taken down from the outside by British, French, Soviet, and American military forces leading a host of others in "reaching across the aisle" with bullets, shells, and bombs, because the resistance on the inside had already been eliminated.

Perhaps you've heard or read the quote by Kevin Roberts, president of the Heritage Foundation, coordinators of Project 2025:

“We are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be”

There's a lot to unpack there, but let me toss out a possible interpretation: We feel we are guaranteed success unless there is violent resistance.

And you're here encouraging us to voluntarily put our names on the list that will be used to populate Alligator Alcatraz and all the other cutesy names Republicans will put on their red state prison camps.

Maybe you have a point. Line up and get it over with. We have no hope of outside intervention. The United States has the largest effective nuclear arsenal in the world. The Russians like where we're headed, the Chinese appreciate we're ceding the power and prestige of the world's top spot to them, while the British and French are dealing with their own movements to follow in America's current footsteps. Not to mention climate change, which won't even be acknowledged, much less addressed, by the powers that be.

--

All that to say, I think trying to reach out to Republicans is the wrong idea. Same with libertarians, and both-sides centrists whose entire identity is being the middle pane of the Overton window, unaware they're on a completely different side of the building. The resistance needs numbers, but they won't come from the right.

Instead, reach out to the independents. The politically disengaged. The ones who are just keeping their heads down and trying to survive. Be seen and heard at protests and rallies, not at someone against the administration, but as a signal, a beacon to others that their one can be a part of a multitude that is both scared and angry, but willing to stand up and be counted.

 

[s73v3r]

And they're all getting access to completely unbiased news sources, and when surveyed felt they were talking to an unbiased surveyor who they'd trust as a source of information? And there are still 50% of them who would care if they were fully aware of Trump's crimes?

Sounds like "some" to me.

I do not fucking care. They have access to the same news sources all of us do. They choose to eat that schlock.

It is entirely their fucking fault that they are terrible fucking people. No one else's. I'm sick and tired of being told that I have to treat these contemptible assholes with kid gloves while they're allowed to spew whatever vile shit they want.

Stop telling us we have to reach out to them. Go over there and tell them they have to reach out to us. And don't bother anyone else until you've done that.

 

[LostFate]

However bad you thought this would get, you underestimated.

This is pretty much on track for what I figured. I was one of those people that everyone else started calling hyperbolic back in November and just finally stopped being called hyperbolic last month.

They were broadcasting their plan from the start. None of this is a surprise.

 

[s73v3r]

And the consensus is that the democrats ran a well-managed and coordinated campaign that correctly understood the issues which were significant to the Republican voters?

Yes, she did. Her entire fucking campaign was reaching out to Republicans. They didn't bite. Because they are all Trumpists.

I'm genuinely sorry for you that you can find no way to find any common ground with a large proportion of your (I assume) country's electorate.

No, they refuse to find common ground with ME. Tell me, why the fuck is it my responsibility to baby and coddle their asses when they think my friends don't deserve to exist?

It certainly won't make it any easier for a moderate Republican to reach out to you,

WHEN THE FUCK HAVE THEY TRIED?

Are you just entirely giving up on the US being united?

I'm saying that it's their fucking fault, and they can be the ones to reach out.

To irrational and selective reporters yes.

So all of them?

To anyone willing to listen to a rational argument, no.

So no Republicans. Got it.

Trump gets away with "but what about..." (some minor thing) whenever anyone points out that he's a convicted felon. He can't do that nearly so easily if everything was already in the open and has been discussed.

Yes, he can. Because issues with Democrats ARE OUT IN THE OPEN AND BEING DISCUSSED. IT DOESN'T FUCKING HELP.

 

[Derp Derpus]

Conservatives are speed-running America's race to the bottom....

They've already hit bottom and are now tunneling furiously.

 

[Fluppeteer]

There's a lot to unpack there, but let me toss out a possible interpretation: We feel we are guaranteed success unless there is violent resistance.

I was kind of hoping that proving Project 2025 wrong about things was a goal.

And you're here encouraging us to voluntarily put our names on the list that will be used to populate Alligator Alcatraz and all the other cutesy names Republicans will put on their red state prison camps.

I was assuming that the people who get locked up for discussing how races, sexes and (more or less) creeds are similar and all could get along might be in the line behind those discussing violent responses. I concede I may be ascribing undue strategy.

All that to say, I think trying to reach out to Republicans is the wrong idea. Same with libertarians, and both-sides centrists whose entire identity is being the middle pane of the Overton window, unaware they're on a completely different side of the building. The resistance needs numbers, but they won't come from the right.

Instead, reach out to the independents. The politically disengaged. The ones who are just keeping their heads down and trying to survive. Be seen and heard at protests and rallies, not at someone against the administration, but as a signal, a beacon to others that their one can be a part of a multitude that is both scared and angry, but willing to stand up and be counted.

Honestly, I agree. But I do think there's a continuum of people, especially among the independents, and they lean both ways. I don't expect reaching out to Republicans to convert that many (especially among the MAGA faithful who need far more dedicated deprogramming, and are going to have emotional issues when Trump's age, health, anger issues and impostor syndrome catch up to him via more than apparent senility) but the appearance of willingness to do so may get you seen as approachable and reasonable. Even if you're shouted at, that'll still reflect on the people doing the shouting more than you, to observers. I don't think approaching people on the street and splitting them into "this person agrees with me", "this person is worthy of a political discussion" and "this person is devil's spawn and I'm not going to engage" is going to attract people to the cause.

And I'm not suggesting people don't attend rallies. But people attend pro-Trump rallies too (albeit not as many as he'd like). My (limited) impression is that for each person motivated by the crowd, there'll be one annoyed at the inconvenience and who associates rally attendees with irrational fanaticism. Okay, probably not 1:1 - my argument is not that rallies are completely ineffective, just that I don't think they're enough on their own - and with MAGA in charge of so much of the media, they're in danger of being very much seen in isolation.

Whatever people do try, I really hope it works. Obviously I'm no expert (you can tell by the downvotes), but you don't have to be far right to spiral into violence. It's been pointed out that the two sides do meet at the extremes.

 

[rainynight65]

There will come a day when we can say "we told you so". Only on that day we won't be able to, because we'll be too busy fleeing the country, going underground, or being arrested.

And only when the last immigrant has been deported or put into a concentration camp, the last media organization has been banned or neutralised, the last political dissident arrested, will they realise that the fascists are only just getting started.

 

[Fluppeteer]

I do not fucking care. They have access to the same news sources all of us do. They choose to eat that schlock.

It is entirely their fucking fault that they are terrible fucking people. No one else's. I'm sick and tired of being told that I have to treat these contemptible assholes with kid gloves while they're allowed to spew whatever vile shit they want.

I'm not sure I ever mentioned kid gloves, unless your alternative is boxing gloves. Absolutely call people out on their beliefs and the abhorrent behaviour of those they believe in. I'm just not sure how strategically ignoring them or calling them names is going to help.

Stop telling us we have to reach out to them. Go over there and tell them they have to reach out to us. And don't bother anyone else until you've done that.

Fair call. Obviously I'm several thousand miles away and I'm slightly attempting to delegate, and I do have to get past immigration without looking overtly like I'm there to overthrow the government, but I'll happily try to find some Republicans that I can engage with. Although since a lot of the US still seems to hold a bit of a grudge against the British, I suspect I'm not off to a good start.

I'd be reaching out to any Republicans reading this thread to suggest the same thing, I just suspect not many will be reading it. Good luck to whichever LLM picks this up and tries to summarise it for Fox News, though.

 

[Jeff S]

Dems have NEVER been fascist...not since the fascists all moved to the GOP during the Civil Rights Era.

Get a clue, will ya?

I never said Dems HAVE been fascist. Go re-read the post I was replying to. Then re-read my post. I was responding to the prior post.

 

[Jeff S]

Or, you know, Dems could NOT be fascists and actually give businesses a reason to support them as an alternative to fasicsm. . . I mean, if Dems are just going to be fascists too, why would anyone bother to vote for them, as a vote for them would then be just a vote for more of the same?

I would expect better reading comprehension from Ars so I'm going to explicitly break this down since people seem to have completely missed my point. I'm not saying Dems are fasicst. I was replying to a person who said, "I hope every business in the MAGA sphere is being told to expect the same treatment if the Dems return to power."

My response that Dems could NOT be fascists is a FORWARD looking statement to when they are back in power (if they ever are), not a present or backwards looking statement claiming Dems are fascists now. My statement was specifically a response to that statement that the previous poster wanted Dems to act like MAGAs.

 

[Jeff S]

@Jeff S Try again when you regain contact with reality.

See my clarification - I haven't lost contact with reality, you all just lack reading comprehension.

 

[Jeff S]

Fighting fascism with protest doesn't make the protesters fascist. The Democratic party organizing a day/weekend of national protest over fascist policies that are objectively damaging our system of government doesn't make them fascist.

Yes. I never said anything to the contrary.

 

[Jeff S]

They're fucking not, and anyone who claims so is not being serious.


Anyone who needs a "reason" to vote against fascism is a terrible person.

I agree. My point was that IF we ended up with two fascist parties, then there would be no reason to vote for one fascist over another.

 

[LostFate]

I was kind of hoping that proving Project 2025 wrong about things was a goal.



I was assuming that the people who get locked up for discussing how races, sexes and (more or less) creeds are similar and all could get along might be in the line behind those discussing violent responses. I concede I may be ascribing undue strategy.


Honestly, I agree. But I do think there's a continuum of people, especially among the independents, and they lean both ways. I don't expect reaching out to Republicans to convert that many (especially among the MAGA faithful who need far more dedicated deprogramming, and are going to have emotional issues when Trump's age, health, anger issues and impostor syndrome catch up to him via more than apparent senility) but the appearance of willingness to do so may get you seen as approachable and reasonable. Even if you're shouted at, that'll still reflect on the people doing the shouting more than you, to observers. I don't think approaching people on the street and splitting them into "this person agrees with me", "this person is worthy of a political discussion" and "this person is devil's spawn and I'm not going to engage" is going to attract people to the cause.

And I'm not suggesting people don't attend rallies. But people attend pro-Trump rallies too (albeit not as many as he'd like). My (limited) impression is that for each person motivated by the crowd, there'll be one annoyed at the inconvenience and who associates rally attendees with irrational fanaticism. Okay, probably not 1:1 - my argument is not that rallies are completely ineffective, just that I don't think they're enough on their own - and with MAGA in charge of so much of the media, they're in danger of being very much seen in isolation.

Whatever people do try, I really hope it works. Obviously I'm no expert (you can tell by the downvotes), but you don't have to be far right to spiral into violence. It's been pointed out that the two sides do meet at the extremes.

So your problem here, the piece of US politics that you aren't understanding, is that their political party is their entire community. You will not, full stop end of story, convert any appreciable number of people from the Republican party. End of story. These people replaced their own family members with the talking heads on the radio because their family members raised concern about the extremism they started to show.

These people will not abandon their tribe, it offers them a safe (if false) worldview, it provides them validation, it provides them with companionship. It's not about policy, he could mass murder 40 million children of Democrats in the National Mall, turning the reflecting pool into a monument to Satan and his supporters would stand in the way to give him time to finish if there was any resistance.

These people are obese, poor, sick, and unemployed but without fail they all say they'd vote for him again without skipping a beat, despite having all of their benefits and lifelines stripped away from them... Because it's not about policy and there's no convincing any of them. It's a tribe, politics in this country has devolved into team sports; a true sports fan sticks with their team no matter what.

I understand why you're saying what you're saying. How do we deal with 75 million people who gleefully embraced this without trying to change their minds? I don't have an answer to that... Or, I guess, my answer is that you don't. You treat them like Europe treated the puritans and move them somewhere where they can be someone else's problem... Or you hope that you win against them when the cold civil war they've engaged us in turns hot.

The reason we are in this mess is because the country didn't do the hard thing at the end of the last civil war, we didn't completely irrevocably destroy the ideology behind the conflict. We let the south write their own narrative (The Lost Cause of The Confederacy) and paint themselves as the downtrodden. War isn't about pummeling another group into submission, it's about wiping what the other side stands for off the planet. The repubs will know that. Things will get bad, probably soon, if people don't start fighting (and I mean fighting) back.

 

[Fluppeteer]

Yes, she did. Her entire fucking campaign was reaching out to Republicans. They didn't bite. Because they are all Trumpists.

Okay. Clearly you and I have seen separate polls. There is obviously a significant number of people who believe Trump is somehow a saviour who's overthrowing the establishment and sticking it to the man, but interviews I saw around the election showed quite a number who preferred his priorities over those stated by the Harris campaign, felt they hadn't been heard by the Biden administration, and were prepared to vote for Trump despite not liking him. I'm surprised none of them, apparently, would be open to being shown how MAGA is in fact being detrimental to their personal interests - because it blatantly is.

No, they refuse to find common ground with ME. Tell me, why the fuck is it my responsibility to baby and coddle their asses when they think my friends don't deserve to exist?

Because you've ascribed them all to a singular "they". It's absolutely the responsibility of the rational fringes of the Republican party to try to reach out as well - if for no other reason than they should be trying to grow their numbers, if they really believe in their cause. To an extent, it's everyone's responsibility to get along. Many obviously won't try. Were I in the right country, I'd love to have a debate with some MAGA representatives and spend time poking holes in all their arguments - I've done the same with the Mormons when they've visited my house before, although standing outside in my dressing gown for half an hour was a little awkward.

WHEN THE FUCK HAVE THEY TRIED?

Obviously you present as extremely approachable and the first person that a conciliatory Republican would want to try talking to. (But sure, all evidence suggests that the Republican voters exist in an echo chamber and this is a cause of a lot of their misinformation. Is it really a good thing that the left also exists in an echo chamber, even if there's more evidence to back up its conclusions?)

I'm saying that it's their fucking fault, and they can be the ones to reach out.

You ascribe very low standards to the Republicans (even if self-evidently justified by at least some of them) but you're expecting them to take the moral high ground? I get being fed up. I get not having the energy to try to find a way out of this mess. I won't judge for it. But I don't think it's the right approach. Obviously not everyone agrees with me.

Yes, he can. Because issues with Democrats ARE OUT IN THE OPEN AND BEING DISCUSSED. IT DOESN'T FUCKING HELP.

Because everyone was so open that Hillary was not blindsided by the email situation. Because the Hunter Biden situation was entirely open from the start. They're way more open - and minor - than what the Republican representatives are guilty of, but you can't really claim that every skeleton in the cupboard has been exposed pre-emptively to defuse it being used as ammunition. Given that most senior politicians have had that goal for a very long time, I'm astonished that more of them (in every country, of every belief) haven't managed to lead more of a squeaky clean existence.

Obviously I don't have the answers, and the ones I do have are unpopular enough here. I hear you. We may be talking at mild cross purposes about how much of the populace you're categorising as worth summary dismissal - or we may not. You may overestimate how much I expect conciliatory efforts to help, at least directly. But unless you're willing to wait a few generations, resolving disputes by letting the parties stew in their own juices does not have a long track record of success. I'm just saying I don't understand how you expect to outvote the people who outvoted you if you don't change minds.

And yes, there's the undecided middle. Who presumably do think it's worth talking to Republicans, or who already think the Democrats are equally cranks. Certainly reach out to them. But raving about how millions of people are evil and deranged is a very difficult starting place for credibility. You don't have to like it, or even believe it, but perception matters.

 

[Fluppeteer]

So your problem here, the piece of US politics that you aren't understanding, is that their political party is their entire community. You will not, full stop end of story, convert any appreciable number of people from the Republican party. End of story. These people replaced their own family members with the talking heads on the radio because their family members raised concern about the extremism they started to show.

These people will not abandon their tribe, it offers them a safe (if false) worldview, it provides them validation, it provides them with companionship. It's not about policy, he could mass murder 40 million children of Democrats in the National Mall, turning the reflecting pool into a monument to Satan and his supporters would stand in the way to give him time to finish if there was any resistance.

These people are obese, poor, sick, and unemployed but without fail they all say they'd vote for him again without skipping a beat, despite having all of their benefits and lifelines stripped away from them... Because it's not about policy and there's no convincing any of them. It's a tribe, politics in this country has devolved into team sports; a true sports fan sticks with their team no matter what.

All this is evidently true of a lot of people (a disturbingly large number, and I'm quite willing to believe I underestimate it). On the other hand, Trump did have a laughably underpopulated inauguration ceremony (at least the first time, I forget this time). The turn out at the military parade for his birthday was much lower than (he, at least) anticipated. Millions may have voted for him, but not all of them are so fanatical that they'll turn out to support him everywhere. Some do. They're loud. Not dissimilar to the NRA.

There are many people who form community from politics, especially given online fora in which to do it. But they also get community from their churches. From the people they work with. From the people in their daily lives. From their actual families. America may have a history of segregation, but if we're yet at the point where people with different political views are actively banned from interacting on a large scale, that's news to me, and I hope we're not there yet.

And no, you won't convert many. The election was moderately close, you don't need to convert many. Any you do convert will be much better qualified to convert others than you are. But just the act of trying may make you more appealing to the right-leaning independent who you actually wanted to reach.

And yes, humanity has a propensity to find a tribe and ascribe enmity to anyone who's "other" - something that worked a few thousand years ago and hasn't really caught up with societies. I'm not totally sure that using sports as an outlet works, but it's better than actual fighting (except when that's what it is). But convincing people of just how "other" you are isn't a way to get talking.

I understand why you're saying what you're saying. How do we deal with 75 million people who gleefully embraced this without trying to change their minds? I don't have an answer to that... Or, I guess, my answer is that you don't. You treat them like Europe treated the puritans and move them somewhere where they can be someone else's problem... Or you hope that you win against them when the cold civil war they've engaged us in turns hot.

Or I suppose the Handmaid's Tale solution is that everybody rational moves to Canada and we get a DMZ. But the problem with societies based on a single philosophical outlook is that it kind of throws the minority of independently-developing free thinkers under the bus.

The reason we are in this mess is because the country didn't do the hard thing at the end of the last civil war, we didn't completely irrevocably destroy the ideology behind the conflict. We let the south write their own narrative (The Lost Cause of The Confederacy) and paint themselves as the downtrodden. War isn't about pummeling another group into submission, it's about wiping what the other side stands for off the planet. The repubs will know that. Things will get bad, probably soon, if people don't start fighting (and I mean fighting) back.

Things may get bad (well, worse). I'm sorry about the situation. But it's awfully hard to stamp out an idea, and doing it with guns tends to lead to martyrs, long-term resentment, and stern questions about whether you're actually on the right side. Israel is demonstrating this very effectively. Absolutely the outcome of the American Civil War could have been handled with more foresight (politicians are so good at that), and maybe we could argue that modern DEIB initiatives spent too much time being celebratory and not enough time actually ensuring that the problems and attitudes didn't return (and despite my best efforts, I'm entirely not shocked that the ones I've been involved with ran out of steam). But I tap out at the point where you're giving up on all other options and instigating violence. I can't imagine how it could end well.

It was suggested that I do my part to reach out to some Republicans. Fair call, and (subject to my ability to find any given the circles I need to interact in) I'll try, next time I'm in the US. In the meantime I should probably back out for my mental health and that of everyone who's read too many of my essays. I've tried, and I can't imagine I'm going to persuade many people by writing much more. Good luck to all of you, however you handle the situation. I'll go back to something harmless, like environmental catastrophe and the banning of wind farms.

 

[s73v3r]

I'm not sure I ever mentioned kid gloves, unless your alternative is boxing gloves. Absolutely call people out on their beliefs and the abhorrent behaviour of those they believe in. I'm just not sure how strategically ignoring them or calling them names is going to help.


Fair call. Obviously I'm several thousand miles away and I'm slightly attempting to delegate, and I do have to get past immigration without looking overtly like I'm there to overthrow the government, but I'll happily try to find some Republicans that I can engage with. Although since a lot of the US still seems to hold a bit of a grudge against the British, I suspect I'm not off to a good start.

I'd be reaching out to any Republicans reading this thread to suggest the same thing, I just suspect not many will be reading it. Good luck to whichever LLM picks this up and tries to summarise it for Fox News, though.

Then honestly, if you're not going over to the Fox News forums to tell them to reach out, then knock it off. I am sick and fucking tired of people telling us that we are the problem, and we have to be the ones to reach out by people who never do that to Republicans.

 

[Fluppeteer]

Then honestly, if you're not going over to the Fox News forums to tell them to reach out, then knock it off. I am sick and fucking tired of people telling us that we are the problem, and we have to be the ones to reach out by people who never do that to Republicans.

I'm not going to enjoy it, but I'll see what I can do. I suspect everyone will be relieved when I knock it off anyway.

If it makes you feel any better, obviously you're not the problem, and the onus should be on the right to reach out. But since they're winning, don't want change, and some reasonable number are psychopaths (guiding the rest), they're not exactly as motivated as those who actually realise what's happening to the country. I don't think it hurts to ask both sides. Other than causing some irritation, apparently.

Wish me luck. Tell my wife I said "hello".

 

[Carewolf]

Stop telling us we have to reach out to them. Go over there and tell them they have to reach out to us. And don't bother anyone else until you've done that.

Though, to be fair, I think "reaching out to them" could be as simple, as having plans to providing cheap houses and working health care to them. Bernie has been reaching them more than the Democrat center has.

 

[C.M. Allen]

Though, to be fair, I think "reaching out to them" could be as simple, as having plans to providing cheap houses and working health care to them. Bernie has been reaching them more than the Democrat center has.

That's the thing -- regardless of the political and ideological divides, most voters DO want the same things. When you to talk to Republicans about how to make things better, you just have to cut out all the conservative dogwhistles and partisan terms, breaking it down to what they'll get and how things will be different. The schism comes from who should get them and who shouldn't. Republican voters want all those things for themselves, but not for anyone else. Whereas Democratic voters are more interested in making sure everyone has those things. And that's just the beginning! When you strip out all the conservative dogwhistles and partisan terms, just lay out as simple facts and program purposes, Republican voters actually support socialism, crazy as that sounds. Strongly in fact, even if they don't realize that's what they're talking about and what they want. But their selfishness won't allow them to permit those social benefits for anyone beyond 'me and mine.' They've become convinced that it's better live in the dirt by yourself, in a shithole town than to share a nice home and peaceful city with anyone else.

 

[Scary Devil Monastery]

Isn't flag burning the 1st Amendment coverage? How is this tool allowed to override the Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Shaking the money tree as a overzealous, vindictive, litigious twat.

The people voting for him regularly called in to NPR and chewed them out as 'spewing socialist propaganda' whenever they read the dog damn constitution.

And the people who did not vote decided there was no viable difference between the orange grifter clown with the openly fascist agenda and a black woman with a successful career of proven competency.

That is how this is allowed. Because one in three americans actually standing up for their national charter isn't enough.

 

[Scary Devil Monastery]

he is going to fuck with the mouse..... you dont fuck with the mouse

Sadly the original founder of the House of Mouse was sympathetic enough to Hitler Disney was literally the only studio in Hollywood to roll out the red carpet to Leni Riefenstahl.

The idea they won't simply fold like a house of cards to the new american reich is just a bit optimistic.

 

[Scary Devil Monastery]

That's a great addition to what I said. There's a heck of a lot that could go wrong in a way that leads to WWIII.

For WWIII to happen, both sides have to make serious mistakes. And the problem with that is that the US and Russia are the new axis without really a set of allies to be found to oppose. The main thrust of Trump's and Putin's venom still being aimed at US internal politics.

Before WW3 can break out, Trump will need to pacify his own country. And that will take some time because moving too fast may eventually wake those 30% who couldn't be arsed to vote up.

 

[Scary Devil Monastery]

Kindly, fuck off with that enabling noise.

77 million US bootlickers signed up for fascist aristocracy. 75 million voted against it, and another 90 million sat and did nothing.

This is a simple numbers game, and it all starts with YOU DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH ABUSERS.

You cut them off. Utterly. Permanently. Don’t want ’em, don’t need ’em. Make them irrelevant.

You are adults. These abusers hold no power over you except that which you willingly give them.

The only way these US fascists secure power is if you 165 million now intentionally sit on your asses to enable them. For no better reason than you don’t respect yourself, nor care for anyone else. No greater purpose than they just wanted it more than you do.

MAGA aren’t the real bootlickers: they already know what they want and are at least honest about it.

The true bootlickers? Every progressive who whines “I’ve tried nothing and I’m all out of ideas,” working hard only to rationalize their personal surrender. Making appeasers, quislings, enablers out of themselves, out of you.

.

Look: this is not one vast intractable problem. It’s lots of small simple ones, to be worked and solved methodically one by one. Starting with: connecting all 165 million electorate who hold power to end this shit so all know that none stand alone.

There is no shame in cowardice or ignorance, only giving into your fears because that is easy.

Time to do the other thing, not because it is hard but because it needs done. For humanity. For your own, first and foremost.

--

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

...and on reading through that very succinct and accurate summary, then parse that last sentence and posit it against the "Letter from Birmingham Jail" from the same source.

MLK knew it well, as does anyone who's read their history. You can't talk a fascist down, you can't debate the bigot out of bigotry, and you can't argue a point of civilization and society with people whose bottom line is that they would rather suffer more hardship as long as their chosen scapegoat has it worse, than suffer equality if it means their chosen scapegoat will have parity with them.

This will not be solved by democrats and republicans joining hands, because any such attempt will result, as it has for the last generation in republicans taking that opportunity to knife minorities just a few times more.
This only gets solved by the 30% who couldn't see the difference between a grifting fascist clown and a black competent woman finally waking up and realizing that they too have a personal stake in putting an end to the fascist takeover by helping to suppress the third of the US which is pro-fascist until that third dies out.