Can a new powerline kit solve an urban apartment dweller’s Wi-Fi woes?

For some apartment dwellers, interference is a bigger problem than range.

Read the whole story

 

[LemonJoose]

Compared to 5 GHz these powerline results really aren't that impressive when you consider the major drawback of only really being an option for devices that you don't mind being tethered by a wire. So it doesn't really solve the problem that the author had using his phone to watch Netflix in his bedroom, for example.

 

[WebScorpion]

I live in a 3-bedroom condo where I'm in competition with over 20 different Wi-fi networks belonging to my neighbors. I had no problem with the signal; It was just that all the channels were busy at different times, so no matter what channel my Wi-fi router picked at startup, it would become busy at some time. The end result was streaming video that would always pause to reload the buffer and PC-based games that would drop and reconnect mid-game. Neither of these was pleasant so I searched for an answer. My answer was a Plume mesh network, which uses the 5 Ghz band for the network backhaul and 2.4Ghz band for communication with the endpoints. It also continuously scans the channels and dynamically switches to channels that are less busy. I wouldn't recommend it to everyone because it's firewall and parental control options are currently non-existent, but I have never had a buffered video or interrupted game since the install. I kept my old LinkSys WAP (and disabled the Wi-fi) and use it as a firewall between my Plume mesh network and the internet. I have 6 'pods' and my main devices (Roku TV and my PC) are wired directly into a pod so they're not using the 2.4Ghz band at all. Phones, Tablets, Laptops, and secondary streaming devices all use the 2.4Ghz band with no problems though. Different environments demand different solutions and this one seems to fit my situation. Power line or going wired probably would have been my next experiment.

 

[ThinkingMore]

Is it time to start looking at RF isolation in apartments, similar to sound isolation between units? Add a layer of the right kind of mesh?

.

I wonder of some line-of-sight optical device (like laser based transceivers) could be part of a solution. At least you might be able to span open areas without needing a cable.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/128 ... r-pointers

60GHz WiGig and the like is almost line of sight, but still radio. If you stick an AP in every room it'll work.... but you still need backhaul.

I don't think the case for powerline ethernet is going to go away any time soon simply due to the backhaul issue.

RF, wifi and powerline will have interference issues regardless. I would think an optical LOS to span ethernet across a room would be interference agnostic and pretty much stay confined within your space/room.

Maybe tossing nerf balls would briefly interfere, now that I think of it.

 

[balazer]

What you guys keep calling switches are circuits. Each circuit is connected to a circuit breaker. Switches are something else. Switches are used to turn lights on and off.

In the U.S., residential power is a single split phase. Three transformer taps provide 240 V line-to-line, or 120 V on either of the two line-to-neutral connections. The two sides of the split are not different phases. Two bus bars in the breaker panel are linked to the two lines. Every 120 V circuit is connected to one bus bar or the other.

Modern powerline network technologies work across circuits and even across bus bars. At the high frequencies used by these technologies, impedance between the buses is low.

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/mydownl ... upling.pdf

Performance of powerline networking is highly variable, much like with wireless. It depends on the wiring topology and on interference.

 

[dooferorg]

At about $100 bucks per end point. It's hard to justify it over the mesh network.

If they included a mesh network fallback. This product would be a winner. But with all powerline products. It's a hook it up and see if it works. And by that time you already opened the product and only choice with a non-working powerline product is hope the vendor takes returns.

Or they work for a bit sporadically, and then just up and die. I'm looking at you, Zyxel. Was covered under warranty but it didn't work well. :-/

 

[gamoniac]

It would be nice to see some mentioning of security. Good quick review otherwise.

 

[RobStow]

"I'm prohibited by my lease from running Ethernet cables either inside the wall or attached to the wall;"

For exactly that reason, a year or so ago I helped a friend attach cables to her ceiling.

The property manager eventually noticed what had been done when the annual fireplace inspection was performed and tried to force a modified lease on her that added a ceiling prohibition. She refused to sign that but is going to have to face that issue again when her current 3 year lease expires in about another 18 months. Nice to know she'll have a good powerline option when that day arrives.

That's really bizarre...love to know what their justification is on that. I can see restricting glue-on tracks and stuff that may damage the wall but if you just have a thumb-tack every couple feet that's quite sufficient.

Also I'd argue back I don't put "ethernet cable" up, I use Cat5e or Cat6 cable personally.

OK - time to upgrade...you can get 100M fiber-media converters and fiber cheap on eBay. Fiber-optic cable is NOT "ethernet cables".

At least in my friend's case the justification for the ban on pretty much any kind of internet wiring by tenants was pretty simple: the property owners want you to be required to go through them so that they can have the work done by their own employees or preferred contractors - and then they charge you for it with a heavy mark-up.

 

[raxadian]

With how unsafe Wi-Fi is, I only use it because Ethernet cables don't work on smartphones.

 

[Greho]

What I would assume is that the devices are communicating through the neutral wires. But, I would be very interested to know how the system faired based off of which circuits and phases were being utilized. When you were testing the system did you note the room's circuits # in relation to the switch's circuit?
Based off of the results of that data, some minor adjustments could be made which could result in noticeable improvements.

Disclosure: professional electrician.

I think I remember reading about limitations of older PowerLine systems, such that circuits on the same leg in the breaker box would have better performance, and circuits on different legs would have diminished performance.

It would be good to know if these are affected similarly.

 

[Greho]

These powerline kits can be great.

I had wi-fi interference problems. And, as a renter, wasn't able to open the walls to run ethernet. I thought about just taping down cat-5, but that's kind of unsightly.

Initially, my wall wiring wasn't going to work. But then I bought four 50ft extension cords and an equal number of power strips. I snaked all that through my apartment using LOTS of duct tape - problem solved. Now my network is rock solid and I don't have ugly ethernet cables cluttering my living space!

Seriously got me laughing, there. A little argumentum ad absurdum on Ars is a good thing.

Also sounds a bit like redneck engineering at its finest.

 

[Greho]

My 2 cents:
I've either run ethernet cables in the baseboard gap needed in a carpeted place or used routers that can be flashed with 3rd party firmware that let me link them over the 5GHz band.

Pretty much every router I've seen in the past few years supports 5GHz so it's no longer rare. I think the lack of interference I see in my building at that band has to deal with the way walls attenuate the signal.

My big gripe is IoT devices. I have some cameras, outlets, and sensors that are all wifi connected. A powerline adapter would be fine in the case of devices that have ethernet ports. But most of my devices are 2.4GHz only with no 5GHz options (they don't need the bandwidth so why add to the cost?) I've had to resort to having many APs in my apartment to ensure the devices connect to my network.
Maybe one of these powerline adapters with a built in AP would work for that.

What I'd like to wish for is some sort of magic material that can reduce the intensity of 2.4GHz signals from the outside. Every single thread I have every read on this will have some poster/jokster/troll say to set up a faraday cage.
I've looked at conductive fabric as a way to create 'shadows' in my apartment but it's expensive stuff and it needs to be grounded. And it's an overall ugly solution.

What I'd like to propose to all the RF gurus out there is if there is a geometry that would react to RF in the 2.4GHz band to attenuate it (it doesn't need to completely block it, just weaken it so my gear doesn't have to shout down neighboring signals." Think of something like the reflector in a yagi or cubical quad antenna. They are not grounded but reflect the signal. Granted, they work because of their specific size and distance from the driven element. But could something work that doesn't need to totally reflect the signal? Could it be made into a fabric or film I could put on the back of posters or pictures in my apartment? Or would this idea violate the laws of physics?

RF blocking paint.
https://www.emrss.com/collections/emf-shielding-paint

This could be a stealth solution. Paint the perimeter walls of the apartment with RF blocking paint, then cover it with plain old paint that looks exactly like the original paint in the apartment.

You can't do the ceiling or the floor, but you can get the sides with ease, and lots of Wi-Fi routers and APs are designed to spread signals horizontally, so, this could fix a lot of the problem.

 

[launcap]

Andrewcw[/url]":10hvfj8r]

WiFi has shared frequencies. Ethernet over power lines uses shared wiring. How long until the power lines are congested with traffic too?

Almost zero. The problem is how circuit breaker panels are setup and if the electrical wiring is setup. So the chances of that many different people running off the same panel is fairly low.

In my (detached) house, powerline ethernet will only work with devices in the same half and floor (both upstairs and downstairs) since the wiring is split into 4 zones (downstairs/left, downstairs/right etc etc). However the fuse box has been wired, each segment seems to be totally isolated from each other - apart from the lounge (down/left) and the computer room (up/left) which (oddly) seem to share the same circuit but have separate breakers in the fuse box..

As the article says, YMMV wildly. Which is why I have a wifi mesh network using Ubiquiti. The only problem I have with it is when a firmware update is released - the mesh fluctuates wildly as individual APs are upgraded and rebooted.

 

[Deleted member 250988]

...

So it should be possible to isolate apartments if needed and prevent congestion.

Faraday cage metallic screen wallpaper? Sheet metal ceiling?

Sheet metal ceiling....they had those back in the day. Turn of the (20th) century. Tin ceilings with embossed patterns. Poor man's alternative to decorative plaster ceilings.

You have paint for that, just use it.

Then if you dont like the color paint the color you want over that.

But perhaps the easiest you can do to bridge a wireless gap:

Use two highgain directional antennas on bridges APs Put shielding behind the antennas and aim carefully so you don't violate any laws on signal strenghts outside your appartmenta s well as interference from other APs.

It really isn't that hard to insulate your house. Any reinforced concrete walls will already do part of the work for you.

Also put wire mesh behind all paintings and pictures you hang on the wall and put some behind your AP to shield it from signals from neighbours if you can.

On single floor apartments use wifi with external antennas and replace the antennas with high gain omni directional antennas. It won't help your tablet, but you can use these on wifi connected PC's too for transmitting to the AP. What will happen is that you will only be fighting with same floor neighbours for a piece of the spectrum, instead of your upstairs and downstairs neighbours.

 

[quarkleaf]

On 2.4 GHz, I'll bet it would work almost as well by using a mid-channel such as 3. Few people know how to manually set a channel. You won't have amazing bandwidth, but you'll have decent signal to yourself.

One should also consider that using devices like this makes the problem worse for everybody else. Sure, it's cool to have a very strong signal throughout your house. But this solution has several transmitters messing with neighbors.

The review didn't say how these devices assign channels by default. I have two access points. They are both on the same channel. If these devices all select different channels by default, it's just adding more radio pollution to the neighborhood.

People trying to use multiple channels to get more bandwidth is another way to pollute the neighborhood.

Let's have a little discussion about being good neighbors.

 

[neuromaster]

Channel 3 overlaps with channels 1 and 6. There's a reason everyone uses 1/6/11, and it's not because they don't realize there're numbers between 1 and 6, or 6 and 11.

 

[BTasker]

Given that this runs through the power system of a building, does it take a power meter on the line to block the signal from going through the electrical connections leading outside of the building?

Since most apartments don't share meters, I can see that as a way to provide a secure signal. It all being plug and play, I wonder how it all goes together to maintain security if someone nearby, but on the other side of a power meter, happens to employ the same kind (and brand) of device. If they don't plug in their own ethernet connection, would it pick up a signal from the one you have installed?

I've heard rumors that these networks can be relatively easily tapped in this manner, but didn't see any mention of that in the article. I do know the signal is (usually) encrypted, but if one has a device that is compatible and it configures it self, that encryption system may not be proof against eavesdropping.

Just curious how that all works, and if that's even a thing to consider in deploying something like this.

Basically it depends on how the manufacturer has configured the devices, but they can be absolutely trivial to tap - https://www.bentasker.co.uk/documentati ... v-adapters

It's not an issue with the encryption per se, more with the implementation surrounding it, but you can trivially convince other people's adapters to join your poisonpill network.

It's simpler and quicker than cracking WEP - though the obvious caveat is you need to be able to plug into the power supply.

Another relatively common occurrence is for people to see each other's devices straight of the bat - more than a few devices on the market use a key derived from the phrase "homeplugav" by default, so if you skip over the repairing step you'll use the same key as your neighbours.

Whether it matters depends largely on where you live. If you're in an apartment building with a common power feed, then you need to factor in your co-residents. Or if you're particularly paranoid and have sockets outside etc.

No idea if the Ubiquiti kit is affected though, I've not got any to test

 

[SamirD]

I live in a 3-bedroom condo where I'm in competition with over 20 different Wi-fi networks belonging to my neighbors. I had no problem with the signal; It was just that all the channels were busy at different times, so no matter what channel my Wi-fi router picked at startup, it would become busy at some time. The end result was streaming video that would always pause to reload the buffer and PC-based games that would drop and reconnect mid-game. Neither of these was pleasant so I searched for an answer. My answer was a Plume mesh network, which uses the 5 Ghz band for the network backhaul and 2.4Ghz band for communication with the endpoints. It also continuously scans the channels and dynamically switches to channels that are less busy. I wouldn't recommend it to everyone because it's firewall and parental control options are currently non-existent, but I have never had a buffered video or interrupted game since the install. I kept my old LinkSys WAP (and disabled the Wi-fi) and use it as a firewall between my Plume mesh network and the internet. I have 6 'pods' and my main devices (Roku TV and my PC) are wired directly into a pod so they're not using the 2.4Ghz band at all. Phones, Tablets, Laptops, and secondary streaming devices all use the 2.4Ghz band with no problems though. Different environments demand different solutions and this one seems to fit my situation. Power line or going wired probably would have been my next experiment.

Thank you for sharing! How do you think plume would work in conjunction with a wired backhaul? We have the same problem as you except 60-100 APs at any given point in time.

 

[SamirD]

RF blocking paint.
https://www.emrss.com/collections/emf-shielding-paint

This could be a stealth solution. Paint the perimeter walls of the apartment with RF blocking paint, then cover it with plain old paint that looks exactly like the original paint in the apartment.

You can't do the ceiling or the floor, but you can get the sides with ease, and lots of Wi-Fi routers and APs are designed to spread signals horizontally, so, this could fix a lot of the problem.

Property managers for multi-unit tenant buildings should be using this in between tenant units--would definitely help the 'too many APs' issue that seems to be a growing problem.

 

[MartinHatch]

rosen380[/url]":13judbvu]

rosen380[/url]":13judbvu]

Count another happy Powerline user. I have a ~500 sq. ft. apartment which is very stretched out, and the fiber drop goes to one end of the house, completely opposite to the master bedroom and living room- wifi doesn't work well over a couple of walls (my fiber kit does 2.4ghz and 5ghz), so I put a cheap PLC kit; one next to the fiber kit and another in the living room, attached to a wifi AP which provides wired connection to the PS3/OpenElec rPI and Steam Link.

Works flawlessly and much, much less effort than running ethernet- which would probably work better, but I never found myself wishing for ethernet.

It might not work in some places, but in many cases, it's an easy, cheap and effective solution.

Are your inner walls made of lead? I have my wifi router in the basement corner of a 2700 sq foot house and while the signal is fairly weak at the opposite corner on the second floor [bedroom], still good enough to stream Netflix and the like.

Even if your 500 sq feet was like an extra long bowling alley lane, it'd still be only 85-150 feet long [depending on whether you are including the gutters and/or capping]. Any, even crappy, wifi router should be able to handle that, right?

Not necessarily the same but I'm in an old house running a 5Ghz router in the ground floor living room.

My bedroom is 3 rooms away (diagonally), maybe 40 feet horizontal distance. Signal probably goes through a stair-well, a former external-brick-wall and 1 wall + 1 floor .. maybe 2 walls depending on the angle.

If I'm REALLY lucky I get 2 bars. Some nights I can't get an internet signal AT ALL.

I'm definitely considering a PowerLine kit.

In my situation, I definitely get no 5GHz signal on the opposite end as those signals don't do well with too many walls and such. What do you get on the 2.4 GHz band?

2.4Ghz is marginally better .. it's supposed to support "auto-switching" using two channels for the same SSID but really doesn't work that well.

I've forced it into two separate SSIDs now (one for 2.4Ghz, one for 5Ghz) so I can see how well that does.

 

[GruntyMcPugh]

I've been using some TP-Link powerline adapters for years now. My Home Office is in my attic, and this is where I pulled the cable to when I wired the place. WiFi to downstairs was spotty, so I bought some TP-Link adapters, and this solution worked really well, plus I get to use two 'funny' SSIDs, and plug the BluRay into the adapter via an ethernet cable so I can use Apps and DLNA on there (although they are pretty terrible interfaces tbh, but the powerline kit was cheaper than the bespoke Wifi dongle for the BluRay.)

One gotcha if you live in a house rather than a flat, is that the adapters have to be on the same RCD circuit, as RCD zones are separated from each other. As luck would have it, my cellar and first floor are on one RCD circuit, with the ground floor and attic on another, so attic -> ground floor works a treat.

 

[beq]

What if we use ELV (Electronic Low Voltage) LED light switch dimmers that use the neutral wire?

I'm a little confused: Aren't ELV dimmers are for 12- or 24-volt systems. And how can you control the LEDs via the neutral?

I wasn't able to find any clear info, can you point me in the right direction?

I'd looked into this awhile back as a homeowner layperson so my memory's fuzzy, sorry. Googling "triac vs elv dimmer" has good explanations though.

I'd upgraded 2 houses to dimmable LED lighting. Went with a lot of LED-integrated fixtures from WACLighting.com (and subsidiary ModernForms.com) -- both fixtures with LED driver/transformer and driver-less AC-LED fixtures. Plus cheaper brands from Lowe's (Good Earth Lighting, Utilitech), Pixi Lighting, etc, as well as Sylvania Ultra LED bulbs for some existing fixtures.

I had limited options since I specifically targetted the less popular 3500K color temperature (not too warm/yellow, not too cool/bluish white, compromise among family members). Also wanted minimum 90 CRI and high lumens (or delivered lumens) that can be dimmed down. Varying beam spread.

Anyways a lot of the WAC Lighting fixtures specified ELV dimming, so I just went with that type everywhere.

The $25 Lutron CL dimmers you find at Home Depot or Lowe's are the "Triac" type dimmers (also called to as Forward Phase or Leading Edge dimmers), which can cause a louder humm/buzz or flickering with certain lights. Even if Lutron claims the CL is improved over old school Triac dimmers.

Here's the Lutron Diva style: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004DZOMKC


Instead, I had to go with the $75 Lutron "ELV" dimmers (also commonly referred to as Reverse Phase or Trailing Edge dimmers), which require connecting the neutral wire.

Here's an example of the Lutron Diva style: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006UUI88

(I stayed away from 0-10V dimming since I didn't want to have to run 2 extra low voltage control wires for each fixture.)


P.S. Reading Lutron's docs get confusing though. I recall seeing mention of both forward-phase and reverse-phase ELV dimmers, etc.

 

[beq]

BTW, it's not like you have to just lay ethernet cables out openly across the floor. There are options for how to deal with this. And if it's a single ethernet cable then you can likely get away with just using tape.

I'm just going to leave this here.

https://www.amazon.com/Adhesive-Etherne ... B074H1V84C

Run your cat 6 on the baseboards, no drilling or hammering.

I used to move apartments every year or 2 before I got my house. I ran ethernet in every apartment (granted, this was before WIFI was actually useful). I did under the carpet now and then depending on how much work was involved, but these kind of clips make it easy to run on baseboards and not leave holes.

Seriously people, just get a flat cat5 cable and some of those little command hooks if you're worried about putting a few tack holes in the wall.

Any good cheap cables?

I like SF Cable's small flat Cat6 550MHz patch cords (0.5 - 60 ft):
https://www.sfcable.com/cat6-flat-patch ... rt:sku:asc

Comes in black, white or blue, and for shorter runs to 10ft I can have precise length by the foot or half-foot. I try to have qty 3-4 of each length on hand, never know what family/friends will need.


Ditto for ultrathin HDMI to handle 18Gbps 4K@60, I like Monoprice's new certified passive cables for shorter lengths by the foot (1 - 8 ft):
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24187

And their active cables for longer lengths in 5ft increments (10 - 50 ft):
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14473

 

[ThaumaTechnician]

What if we use ELV (Electronic Low Voltage) LED light switch dimmers that use the neutral wire?

I'm a little confused: Aren't ELV dimmers are for 12- or 24-volt systems. And how can you control the LEDs via the neutral?

I wasn't able to find any clear info, can you point me in the right direction?

I'd looked into this awhile back as a homeowner layperson so my memory's fuzzy, sorry. Googling "triac vs elv dimmer" has good explanations though.

From your helpful search terms, I found "In the U.S. most Trailing Edge dimmers require a neutral wire be run to the dimmer."

The TE dimmer circuitry needs to be connected to the neutral. The doesn't mean that is uses the neutral to control the voltage.

My confusion is gone now. Thanks.

 

[ThaumaTechnician]

...

So it should be possible to isolate apartments if needed and prevent congestion.

Faraday cage metallic screen wallpaper? Sheet metal ceiling?

Paint?
https://www.lessemf.com/paint.html

 

[ElCameron]

I'd be interested to know what kind of apartment building you live in? how old is it? is it greater than 5 stories? Lots of glass windows?

What I'm curious about is if your walls and floors are concrete and metal stud or wood stud and gypcrete? It's interesting how many signals you have.

I'm pretty certain it was all concrete structural columns and floors with some brick facade. That was a couple of years ago, but my biggest memory is of the large support column in the corner of my bedroom which made the layout annoying. I think it was about a 20 year old building. It had 12 floors of 8 apartments per floor.

Actually the wifi was far from the biggest problem I had to battle. The Main Distribution Frame in the basement was a horrible mess after years of technicians connecting/disconnecting subscribers. Until I learned to adjust the SNR on my modem, I was plagued with dropouts from degraded wiring and EMI.

So you were in Type 1A construction given the number of stories. So your floor and ceiling were concrete with steel, and your walls were all at least 1” gypsum with metal studs. Maybe even a metal lathe plaster finish.

Not exactly a radio friendly environment. Keeps you safe from fires though.

 

[Jim Salter]

No mention of any specs, nor a comparison to other available Powerline products? Is this supposed to better, worse, cheaper, more expensive than products from, say, Netgear, TP-Link or Zyxel? Is there any 'new' technology being used?

Not to worry; this product isn't actually available yet. The website says, "Beta users only," and I found no way to become a beta user.

Checking in from the future: it's significantly faster than most powerline kits. AV1200 kits didn't get more than 150 Mbps throughput even when tested literally plugged into the same outlet, when I tested some for the Wirecutter last month.