Some tech firms want workers back at their desks, but expectations have shifted.
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As Apple postpones office return, workers say they value flexibility over money
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I'm convinced these "tech workers would take a pay cut to work from home" stories that keep popping up all over the place are a load of bullshit. Which tech workers are taking a pay cut right now? The industry is so hot that pay estimates are having a hard time keeping up.
So here's my response to that: Fuck you, pay me what I'm worth and I'll work wherever I want. Got a problem with that? Good luck.
So here's my response to that: Fuck you, pay me what I'm worth and I'll work wherever I want. Got a problem with that? Good luck.
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No matter how much you love WFH, this is dumb. Granted, the whole premise of health insurance being tied to employment is also dumb, but alas, that's the system at the moment.
EDIT: Not to mention, giving up holidays?! WFH already erodes the thin line between work and home, so not having holidays would make having a healthy work-life balance even harder.
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I would take a paycut if it meant a job that was remote vs in the office. Just like i would require an employer pay me more if they made me drive into downtime of any city, because F that commute. Totally depends on the company or the position though.
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That makes no sense. I have fellow workers living 30 minutes away. Why should I accept a pay cut because I live further away, and no longer need to commute. They were not commuting before the pandemic. The only thing that has changed, is that I no longer commute either.
It all sounds like a lot of opportunism by the bean counters seeking to make excuses for what they always want to do - screw employees out of their pay.
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Let's see...should I pay $2500 a month for a crappy bay area apartment and spend upwards of 45 min in traffic each way. Or should I continue to pay $1400 a month and get back an extra hour and a half of my life everyday. Decisions, decisions...
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I can imagine big tech companies easily falsifying "surveys" like this to try to cool the (very hot) tech market by seeding fear among employees & applicants.
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This is a bad opinion possibly being propped by companies themselves. Pay the workers what they’re worth regardless of where they work from, or get stuck with shitty workers. It’s simple.
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We need to stand up to employers who, even after remote workers have proven their value, continue to hammer the in-office return. Do not say you'll take a pay cut because then you're worse off than before. You've managed to show your employer that you will take a concession that will literally save your employer nothing but their ego..... They can pay you the full wage you're entitled to regardless of location.
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The two positions aren't strictly contradictory: in both cases the moral of the story is "you'll need to pay me more if you want me to work in the office"; but it's definitely true that the implicit framing of 'let's talk about the fact that less compensation is required to not shove someone into the office as though pre-plague status quo salaries are too obvious to even be worth mentioning' comes of being written up from the perspective of people who view employees as a cost of doing business, rather than employment as something you do for the money.
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Think of it as buying back your time.
If I was in a position to work remotely, I'd definitely be OK taking slightly less pay than I would for a job with a half hour commute. Commute times aren't paid and are a cost after all. I miss being in a job where I could remote work 1-2 days a week pretty massively.
EDIT: That doesn't remotely outweigh PTO and health care though, fuck no. But say, 70k a year in a massively lower COL area nearer outdoors stuff I like, vs 80-90k a year in Dallas proper? I'd be on that like fleas on a dog.
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The lockdown essentially forced people to really thing abut the work-hard/play-hard American paradigm.
A lot of them discovered that striving for career success and high net worth was not making them happy. This is just the beginning, America is likely to be a very different country by the end of the decade.
A lot of them discovered that striving for career success and high net worth was not making them happy. This is just the beginning, America is likely to be a very different country by the end of the decade.
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I think it is short-sighted to forego health benefits, but the quality of life garnered by flexible options is a tangible and meaningful thing.
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I've lost good talent because industry is desperate for good programmers and they are paying wages I (my company) cannot match. Like people with solid programming and AWS experience can get a job 100% remote and make over $200K plus benefits. Recently lost a guy to work for Citadel 100% remote and his offer letter was for $350K plus benefits.
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Indeed. Holidays are essential: everyone needs down-time lest they burn out. A cut in pay even without a move of residence is bound to make some sense for a lot of people, though. Money spent on transportation, office clothes, and meals out (when you could otherwise go to your kitchen and make a sandwich) can add up pretty rapidly. And that's before you get to the "cost" of transportation time as well.
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I know everyone's job is different, but I honestly feel that most "office" work can be done as well, perhaps better, with once-a-week meetings and working from home.
Office work tends to be "projects" with certain goals and timelines. Tasks are assigned. Meeting up in person, once a week, seems reasonable, necessary even, to keep everyone on the same page. But the individual tasks that make up the larger project are more than fine working from home with phone/zoom/email/text/slack collaboration.
Office work tends to be "projects" with certain goals and timelines. Tasks are assigned. Meeting up in person, once a week, seems reasonable, necessary even, to keep everyone on the same page. But the individual tasks that make up the larger project are more than fine working from home with phone/zoom/email/text/slack collaboration.
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Same. If a job can be done remotely, it should be. Commuting is such a waste of time and resources and the flexibility remote work affords is worth a lot of money for many, myself included.
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This isn't the "Apple is walking it back" article I was hoping to see . . .
I think the idea is that, by relocating somewhere cheap, you could buy your own health insurance for the difference in the lower cost of living. Or some folks may be willing to buy high deductible emergency insurance, or risk it altogether. Either way, it seems like a questionable decision to me as well.
I also think that many people would find this easier said than done. It's easy to say things like "I'll take a pay cut" or "I'll move somewhere cheap" in the heat of the moment than it is when you're staring a move to a different part of the country in the face - especially when you have a family or friends and relatives near you.
I think the idea is that, by relocating somewhere cheap, you could buy your own health insurance for the difference in the lower cost of living. Or some folks may be willing to buy high deductible emergency insurance, or risk it altogether. Either way, it seems like a questionable decision to me as well.
I also think that many people would find this easier said than done. It's easy to say things like "I'll take a pay cut" or "I'll move somewhere cheap" in the heat of the moment than it is when you're staring a move to a different part of the country in the face - especially when you have a family or friends and relatives near you.
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The price of Apple Park, when compared to their quarterly profit, is trivial. And yes, $5bn is trivial to Apple.
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I got lucky I guess...my employer does location based pay, but I'm moving to permanent WFH at exactly the same rate. Although, it's being handled as a transfer, and I do have to sign a new offer letter for that identical pay, which is kind of funny to me.
Now, OTOH, if they'd let me work 4 days/32 hours a week at 80% of my pay, I'd probably do that in a heartbeat...
Now, OTOH, if they'd let me work 4 days/32 hours a week at 80% of my pay, I'd probably do that in a heartbeat...
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Hopefully this last couple of years starts to drive home to the American public that there is more to life than commuting long distances to inflexible jobs, that these things are worth fighting for, and that there is power in numbers to roll back some of the insanity of our current labor situation.
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I don't know about most, but I don't get paid enough as it is, so screw that! I took a temporary pay cut last year because of "the covidz", my employer made 6.5 Billion dollars last year and the CEO and President of the board are both on the list of billionaires, the job I do is worth a certain amount, whether I do it from a goddamn boat or my desk, same work, same pay.
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I'm not going back to the office full time, or even most of the time. I've proven I'm more productive and comfortable from home.
But I'm not taking a pay cut for it. I'll just change jobs. Getting a new tech job is not a problem.
But I'm not taking a pay cut for it. I'll just change jobs. Getting a new tech job is not a problem.
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I don't understand; shouldn't remote workers get a pay INCREASE? The company no longer has to pay for office space for that employee. It also means less commute stress and thus better health insurance costs. It also means happier and thus more productive employees.
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To all those who say
> something something chance encounters at the water cooler.
I understand your argument, and I don't mean to belittle it, but it is only a valid argument against poorly implemented remote work and implementing it in a workplace with an incompatible team culture.
Plenty of businesses have seen no significant issues related to communication. Some cultures may be unable to adapt. But that's not because it is impossible to have this kind of communication remotely, just that it is incompatible with your companies current culture.
> something something chance encounters at the water cooler.
I understand your argument, and I don't mean to belittle it, but it is only a valid argument against poorly implemented remote work and implementing it in a workplace with an incompatible team culture.
Plenty of businesses have seen no significant issues related to communication. Some cultures may be unable to adapt. But that's not because it is impossible to have this kind of communication remotely, just that it is incompatible with your companies current culture.
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The last part in particular, after the anti-poaching nonsense a few years ago, and now the mess about who should/shouldn't go to the office, I am totally onboard with unionizing knowledge workers.
Like seriously, if anyone knows of a legitimate effort please post a reply here.
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In other news, Delta Airlines has added a surcharge for employee health insurance of $200/month per person to help offset the cost of hospitalization from catching COVID-19. Pay attention execs who do business in states with idiotic bans on vaccination requirements. This is how you get around it. I'm willing to bet a lot of insurance plans are going to be following suit fairly soon.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58335109
Edit to add: This only affects employees who are not fully vaccinated. Sorry if I was unclear.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58335109
Edit to add: This only affects employees who are not fully vaccinated. Sorry if I was unclear.
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Employers save money if they aren't paying $40 per square foot for office space, plus utilities, plus equipment and supplies.
Using employee home offices, electricity, equipment rent-free does not translate into a reason for a pay cut in my mind.
Using employee home offices, electricity, equipment rent-free does not translate into a reason for a pay cut in my mind.
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Where is this at? I just started looking around for a WFH position for myself. I've got decent experience, I'm not even at half of those you just stated. I also have a 30 minute commute in, and a 60-90 minute commute out every day.
Edit: Downvoting me for making under 100k as a DBA with 10+ years experience?
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No. The point is, the value of their contributions to the company hasn't changed. There is zero reason why they, or any other worker, should take any kind of pay cut to work remotely.
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Here's a few I know of. If you're adjacent to media, there are a bunch of union organizing drives happening in that sphere as well.
https://techworkerscoalition.org/
https://iww.org.uk/news/tech-workers-rise-up/
https://alphabetworkersunion.org/
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No. Again, the value of their work hasn't changed. And it's not like that money magically disappears. It's just going straight into management's pocket.
Just Say NO to remote work pay cuts.
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It's really the only thing I can think of that makes sense. I work in State government on the west coast and we've been working from home (like most) since March 2020. We're more productive, we're more efficient (with Teams), and we're all happier since we're with our families (furry and otherwise). They polled all State employees (a couple times) and there was over 80% of us who voted "no" to a return to work.
We're going to convert a lot of State buildings to low income housing. Boom.
Never let a good crisis go to waste.
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