Apple’s push to take over the dashboard resisted by car makers

Mercedes, Audi, and Volvo all say they have no plans to support CarPlay Ultra.

See full article...

 

[dragonherder]

I'm not sure why anyone would want to integrate tighter with the hardware that the car companies have... it isnt good hardware. It works well when you are getting the performance from the phone with the app interface being projected either via usb/USB-C, but the built in systems are usually pretty horrendous

 

[Carewolf]

Even the cheapest cars today report vehicle telemetry data directly to insurance companies.

Not where I live, because it would be trillion dollar fines illegal.

 

[Snark218]

Why do the Apple fanbois keep ignoring that this article is about a new invasive product called CarPlay Ultra and not about whether CarPlay is available at all?

How is what he said incompatible with discussing CarPlay Ultra? Most cars with digital gage clusters do not display especially good UI design and often don't even meet interface design best practices. Carmakers are, as he noted, not good at that. The screenshots I've seen of CPU are vastly better, more readable interfaces.

 

[islane]

Is it so much to ask everyone to support Carplay and Android in the infotainment/center console and keep the gauge cluster doing gauge cluster things?

Allow us to plug in any phone for music and nav on the console (just use Apple/Android and don't foist shitty homebrew alternatives for data collection - looking at you GM), let me have reliable/non-distracting gauges free of specific vendor phone integration, and for the love of god keep climate / fan / seat / etc controls as separate, physical buttons. Fuck, it shouldn't be this hard to figure out. A few cents saved (or earned from data collection) as a notch in your belt for this quarter is not worth a lost customer, you drooling simpleton MBA-types.

* old_man_shakes_fist_at_cloud.jpg *

 

[Carewolf]

Ok, but again, you do realize that neither CarPlay nor CarPlay Ultra are required? That you can just not use it if you don't want to? And that you can use it or not, at your pleasure, at any point in your ownership of the car? They're not holding hostages to force you to use it.

You are paying for it even if you dont use it. It is not like Apple allows anybody to implement it for free.

 

[graylshaped]

I got my first car with CarPlay in January and have been happy with it for the most part. I would love to see some more integration but I can understand hesitancy in allowing it to control the whole dash.

Agreed.

Like, having a Radio app seems like a no brainer, I’m not sure why this wasn’t part of the CarPlay spec to begin with. Having to switch back to my car UI to listen to the radio is a nuisance and honestly I think I listen to less radio now because of it.

It's a question of competition and licensing. Toggling inputs isn't onerous to me.

More two way communication would be nice also. My phone automatically goes into driving focus as soon as it connects, even if the engine isn’t running.

Having it default to a minimal distraction mode is not a bad thing.

I have physical controls for my heating, but if those were on the screen (god forbid) it makes sense to have an app for that as well.

Optionally, yes. Optionally.

But there’s also been times where the UI just freezes and I need to disconnect and reconnect the phone. Or probably 5% of the time it just doesn’t connect. I would be very worried about having that kind of experience on my dashboard instead of just the infotainment screen.

Yes, and that's why shoving all vehicle functions through a digital interface is a dodgy move.

 

[Snark218]

But that is CarPlay, not CarPlay Ultra. CarPlay Ultra is Apple's attempt at making a crap car interface that takes over everything and sucks.

Integrating deeply with data sources from the car is not "taking over everything." It's just an option for a different display. And how, specifically, is the Ultra interface "crap?" With specific reference to interface design best practices*, why does it suck?



_{*note that "I dislike Apple" and "I subjectively don't like Apple's aesthetic" does not count}

 

[Snark218]

You are paying for it even if you dont use it. It is not like Apple allows anybody to implement it for free.

Apple does, in fact, not charge automakers to include Carplay functionality. If you have a source that clearly states they're charging automakers to implement CP Ultra, I'd like to see it, because nothing I've read suggests that they are.

 

[bigsnake499]

I would not mind Car Play Ultra as long as I can either use hard buttons or Siri to change cabin temp and things like that. Touch should not be the only way to interact with the feature.

 

[Boskone]

I'll pass.

I want my car to do car things, and my phone to do phone things, and the two should have minimal interaction; basically media casting.

The car should also be as dumb as possible. I neither need nor want any wireless data connection in my vehicle. I have a phone for that.

 

[outadoc]

Android Auto and CarPlay already gave users what they need: an interface to display their apps in the car. Music, maps, everything is great. Manufacturers give users what they really need, even though they lose some control and subscription revenue.

Android Automotive gives manufacturers a platform to build upon, which they have to get somehow anyway, so they can be sold on that idea as well.

CarPlay Ultra gives... extra space to Apple to draw on the dash, to the benefit of... Apple? Manufacturers still have to build their own software AND ALSO give Apple this gimmicky feature. Who really wants this except for some hardcore Apple users?

It wasn't too hard to predict that this is going to ultimately be a failure.

 

[Carewolf]

Actually, yes, that's exactly what Apple does.

God no, no they don't. The SDK is free, but not the rest. There is a reason you can't implement it on Android, the protocol is licensed, and requires not just money, but Apple approval.

 

[Chuckstar]

I agree there are ways in which current CarPlay could provide more integration between car and phone, but Ultra is a step too far. Apple needs to go back and rethink where it puts the line between car and phone.

 

[Snark218]

God no, no they don't. The SDK is free, but not the rest. There is a reason you can't implement it on Android, the protocol is licensed, and requires not just money, but Apple approval.

Ok, clearly you have a source, then. Link?

And frankly, even if Apple does charge some nominal fee for the license and approval of the hardware - which, of course they do, a lot of systems are too laggy - it's pretty silly to care about that and it's not like you're directly paying for it anyway. Yes, the build cost of a car reflects millions of incidental fees and charges and costs the manufacturer accrues along the way; I recommend getting over it.

 

[mknelson]

Even the cheapest cars today report vehicle telemetry data directly to insurance companies.

Except for the ones who don't (or in the case of GM* were "caught" and stopped)

*it was hidden deep in the Terms and Conditions of an optional feature.

 

[Flipper35]

Not necessarily a bad thing. However, do you know what is a bad thing? Having those controls on the display to begin with.



What's wrong with the current CarPlay/Android Auto screen casting? To me that looks like the better solution. Allow me to cast the apps, etc. on the car's display(s), but leave control of the car systems out of the phone's reach. Having Car PLay or Android Auto is basically a requirement for me at this point. I'd rather use Waze than whatever outdated navigation the car offers.

Now that being said, would be nice if car makers actually allowed sensor data to be displayed in some way. Those readings exist and I would for sure like to be able to see coolant temp, oil temp, MAF, MAP, etc. data without having to jailbreak my ECU and install a third party device.

I can already change the climate controls and stuff without leaving the AA screen. I don't need more stuff moved to the touch screen, I need less there.

 

[IamAproton]

Aston Martin it is then

 

[bull3964]

Really feels like people are conflating Carplay, the infotainment option with Carplay Ultra, complete takeover af all UI systems.

I'm 100% on board with smartphone driven infotainment systems like Android Auto and Carplay and wouldn't buy a car that lacks them (or, if it did, made it impossible to add them). That said, I can understand automaker hesitancy in handing over control over operational and potential criticial safety interface over to a 3rd party when it comes to the main dash cluster.

If Carplay flakes out and says your speed is 20mph lower than it is, is the automaker open to a lawsuit? If your phone overheats, lags, and doesn't display the blindspot monitoring indicator that leads to the an accident, who's to blame?

Will the carmaker be beholden to recalls handed out by the NTSB over Apple software?

Yes, I'm sure there is some failsafe in the system where faults cause a fallback to the built in interface (but that has its own issues with reconfiguration of information presented to the driver while their attention should be elsewhere.)

Car infotainment options suck, AA and Carplay are GREAT alternatives. I just can't think of a time when I've thought "this car could be enhanced if my speed and other operational information were presented with liquid glass."

 

[Erbium168]

Except for the ones who don't (or in the case of GM* were "caught" and stopped)

*it was hidden deep in the Terms and Conditions of an optional feature.

In the UK, and probably elsewhere, fitting telemetry is a way to reduce insurance cost for inexperienced drivers. That's it.

 

[Snark218]

I agree there are ways in which current CarPlay could provide more integration between car and phone, but Ultra is a step too far. Apple needs to go back and rethink where it puts the line between car and phone.

Ok, serious question: why is it a step too far?

 

[Granadico]

As someone who never used Android Auto in our Bolt and disabled all Google apps in our Equinox EV, I'm fine with this. Never mind I'll never own an Apple device.

I want my car to be a car, and I want it's sound system to function like a glorified Bluetooth speaker for my phone. My phone is mounted to a vent and is where I expect my navigation and music to live. The giant screen in our Equinox EV shows... tire pressure and trip information ¯\(ツ)/¯.

THis is my take too, though I'm less extreme and use Android Auto on occasion. I don't want my entire car UI to change depending on if my phone is plugged in, that seems like annoying whiplash for what's supposed to be displaying critical driving info. Having the phone control the radio and map and stuff seems fine, but the actual dashboard seems a bridge too far.

But I'm also the kind of person that likes dedicated devices with specific use cases and don't really like my phone to control every aspect of my life. I use a USB stick and radio for music in the car mostly, I have a real alarm clock, I want a remote for the TV. Maybe having your phone control the UI of any car you drive might be useful if you have multiple cars or rent cars frequently, but I don't need Apple/app UI to control everything I interact with.

 

[graylshaped]

You are paying for it even if you dont use it. It is not like Apple allows anybody to implement it for free.

Well, yes, actually. They do. With this upgrade the manufacturer may license the OS to integrate itself--let me repeat that: Apple is now licensing an OS--but for a manufacturer to offer it only requires certain hardware and software specs to be met. Aftermarket head units are also available.

Yes, you are paying for it, as part of the cost of your phone, and yes, you are paying for any incremental costs a car manufacturer might entail to equip their models with compatible hardware, but at scale those costs are pennies.

 

[hillspuck]

Ok, but again, you do realize that neither CarPlay nor CarPlay Ultra are required? That you can just not use it if you don't want to? And that you can use it or not, at your pleasure, at any point in your ownership of the car? They're not holding hostages to force you to use it.

If it's the default assumption of what you'll be using, it will drive out any native system. That's the entire goal of the tech companies. They'd much rather than OEMs just give it up and farm it all out to them.

Even just making a car that's compatible drives it towards touchscreens everywhere. Which is a downgrade in terms of car controls.

 

[NopeNopeNope]

Well, i'm an Android auto user across three cars on three brands. It is a huge safety boost - I can access navigation, tell it to make a stop off, play a podcast or music or call somebody in exactly the same way across all three, 99% of the time by voice alone.

The manufacturers have been killing physical buttons and controls I can feel. If they are going to do that, they can damn well integrate it with this (and whatever Google comes up with) so I can be safer for those unwanted digitalised controls too.

Noteable that the makers in opposition to this right now are all signed up with Google for Android Automotive. Sure that merely a coincidence, of course....

 

[sonicmerlin]

It’s a shame Apple gave up on their EV aspirations. They would’ve been perfectly positioned to replace Tesla as the consumer favorite. Now it’s kind of a free for all, and we have to deal with these stubborn legacy manufacturers and their poorly thought out or uncreative UIs.

 

[sonicmerlin]

Not necessarily a bad thing. However, do you know what is a bad thing? Having those controls on the display to begin with.



What's wrong with the current CarPlay/Android Auto screen casting? To me that looks like the better solution. Allow me to cast the apps, etc. on the car's display(s), but leave control of the car systems out of the phone's reach. Having Car PLay or Android Auto is basically a requirement for me at this point. I'd rather use Waze than whatever outdated navigation the car offers.

Now that being said, would be nice if car makers actually allowed sensor data to be displayed in some way. Those readings exist and I would for sure like to be able to see coolant temp, oil temp, MAF, MAP, etc. data without having to jailbreak my ECU and install a third party device.

There’s inherent lag to wireless casting and the experience isn’t very smooth. Having that buttery smooth and near perfect responsiveness of iOS is a big part of the experience for me.

 

[Snark218]

Really feels like people are conflating Carplay, the infotainment option with Carplay Ultra, complete takeover af all UI systems.

Really feels like a lot of people think Carplay Ultra is doing things it doesn't and can't do.

I'm 100% on board with smartphone driven infotainment systems like Android Auto and Carplay and wouldn't buy a car that lacks them (or, if it did, made it impossible to add them). That said, I can understand automaker hesitancy in handing over control over operational and potential criticial safety interface over to a 3rd party when it comes to the main dash cluster.

If Carplay flakes out and says your speed is 20mph lower than it is, is the automaker open to a lawsuit?

If the data the car is feeding to the cluster reads 20mph lower than your actual speed, it would read that speed whether using CarPlay or the native interface. That data is a straight pass-through from the car to the screen, as mandated by law. If the entire infotainment system crashes, the car is required to run the gage cluster on a separate processor that can still display critical information. This is really reaching.

If your phone overheats, lags, and doesn't display the blindspot monitoring indicator that leads to the an accident, who's to blame?

Is your blindspot monitor display not an LED in your side mirrors? And the driver's to blame in this scenario, for the obvious reason that nobody should be relying entirely on the blindspot monitoring feature to change lanes and one is specifically warned against doing so.

Yes, I'm sure there is some failsafe in the system where faults cause a fallback to the built in interface (but that has its own issues with reconfiguration of information presented to the driver while their attention should be elsewhere.)

"The failsafe might not fail safe enough" is also really reaching. If the native system is not displaying critical data in a way that is readable at a glance even if CP Ultra crashes out, that's not actually Apple's problem.

And indeed, every time regular CarPlay has ceased to function in any of my cars, it was a problem with the janky infotainment system, not actually a problem with CarPlay itself.

Car infotainment options suck, AA and Carplay are GREAT alternatives. I just can't think of a time when I've thought "this car could be enhanced if my speed and other operational information were presented with liquid glass."

And before CarPlay, you probably couldn't think of a time when you wished your phone could get cast to your info screen.

 

[countrygolden]

I have little faith that car manufactures can make something that's very competitive with carplay ultra, however the idea that they would just give up most of the prime visual real estate and interaction points in their product to another company is ludicrous.

 

[tgx]

'other carmakers are developing their own infotainment system'

Yah, that'll work.

 

[Erbium168]

Aston Martin it is then

Wouldn't be AM's first failure. Mechanical fuel injection that needed a retune every week? Done that. Rebadged a Toyota IQ to try to reduce the CAFE footprint? Done that. The history of the UK car industry is littered with brands that failed to do proper market research and prototype evaluation.

Personally I like that I can switch between the car's TomTom (better map presentation and more useful when just driving around) and Google when I want to go somewhere. Generally I want the UI to get out of the way and to be able to control every car function with tactile feedback. Turn up fan one notch. Turn down A/C 0.5 degrees with one click, without looking. Optional manual intervention on the speed limiter - I can activate a new limit myself or just let the car do it (I know the places where the signs are wrongly placed.) I have no confidence that a company like Apple with its heavy focus on screens would achieve that.

 

[Snark218]

If it's the default assumption of what you'll be using, it will drive out any native system.

Nope. That's not how it works.

That's the entire goal of the tech companies. They'd much rather than OEMs just give it up and farm it all out to them.

Yeah, I get that. That's their incentive to do the precise opposite of what you assume they'll do, namely shit up the interface. If they do, that'd be self-sabotaging of the goal you're imputing to them.

And Apple can't farm CarPlay Ultra out to the OEMs. It still lives on your phone. OEMs can't assume every one of their customers will have iPhones and neither can Apple.

Even just making a car that's compatible drives it towards touchscreens everywhere. Which is a downgrade in terms of car controls.

You're moving the goalpost.

 

[ChaoticUnreal]

Can we just cut to the end game were everything is just a dumb terminal that connects to a device we carry that stores all the settings / preferences. Sci-Fi has had this concept for decades at this point and honestly there is no real reason (other than companies fighting for money) not to allow a phone to store settings / preferences / UI options for all devices at this point.

We aren't there with full on replacing desktops for gaming and CPU/GPU intensive tasks but I think with USB-C some of that could be offloaded to a "desktop box" and still use the phone as the main brain.

Yes I know the software isn't there yet (it very well could be in a few years).

 

[keanureeves99]

have they considered the fact that these systems are really high-level distractions that don't affect the operation of the vehicle and should probably not exist in the first place?

 

[Gnafu the Great]

I would like to add that the only way I'll ever consider a solution like this is when it's done using open protocols implemented with free open source software.

 

[D.Becker]

The fight is entirely over the following:

New car sales are approaching nearly 100% on finance -- car payments are one of the primary drivers among the financially distressed. This car finance debt is making this ownership profoundly unattractive -- they need to shovel in more gimmicks as they keep plumbing into a shallowing pool of buyers.

Various sources (pirg.org, nada.org) and stories put the number in the low 80% range, between 80% and 85%. That's the combined share, with business-writeoff vehicles much closer to 100% financed for tax reasons.

That said, I don't think there is any significant revenue growth there. Car financing has a thoroughly earned bad reputation. People avoid it when possible.

 

[hillspuck]

You're moving the goalpost.

Says the person who used the argument that you shouldn't care about this because you can just not use it and therefore it doesn't affect you negatively.

 

[Xepherys]

Honestly, I wish VW would do this. In the '25 GLI, the built-in Nav can be displayed as a sort of HUD on the dash screen rather than the infotainment screen (with a change to the ECU), but you can't get Waze on there, which I use. CarPlay Ultra would allow this (and more), and I'd be grateful for it. As it is, I'll just continue to use Waze with CarPlay Pleb on the infotainment screen.