Some brands are already ahead of the curve, while others leave the US in the cold.
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America, it’s time to think beyond leather for luxury car seats
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Can? How many can you name that actually do have this option? From the factory, not from aftermarket shops or people like myself in my garage doing shady shit.
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This really depends on the fabric.
But my hot take is that I really wish they marketed plastic-free interior options for cars, preferably with textiles instead of leather. But I would settle even for soft plastic-free over leather-free. All these car reviews that mark down any car that doesn't have soft touch plastics everywhere make me a bit queasy. Give me honest, durable hard plastics where you have to, with high quality textiles everywhere you actually touch the interior and a bit of leather where it makes practical sense - there's the real luxury trim option I would consider.
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Pretty much every single modern porsche 911, cayman, boxster, the current Gen G platform 3/4 series BMWs (including the M3/4), current Gen mustangs, the last Gen camaro and challenges (since they discontinued them), Cadillac ct4/5 (at least in the V trims), and etc...
Yeah, most of them are kind of expensive, but all the cheaper sporty cars pretty much cut the feature because of weight savings mainly. Mazda can easily fit a seat with that into the miata, but that would take away from the "lightness" of the said car.
Edit: there's a lot out there, but since manuals are relegated to sporty cars mostly and they're all about that lightness, most manufacturers don't offer it despite offering manuals and ventilated seats in their other offerings.
Edit 2: forgot the C7 Corvette had manual and ventilated seats (C8 doesn't offer a manual), and some of the mid gen refreshed V6 Jaguar F types had manual and ventilated seats (obviously not V8 since they never offered manual in the V8 trims)
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I'll start with Porsche, mostly because it's the only one in that list I could actually believe would try it. Looking at every 911 with a manual on Porsche's US website, which boils down to the Carrera T and GT3,... Nope. I see no mention of any remote start options with the manual transmission version. The Cayman/Boxster doesn't have the a Build option on the website and doesn't list remote start anywhere that I can see. Not just for the manual versions, for all versions, so no idea what's going on there.
I'll humor you for one more, BMW. Their configurator isn't working either for me, just goes into a doom loop back to the vehicle selection page. But googling the idea, all I can find are a few mentions of being able to buy an MT M4 with remote start for a short period around 2020-2021 followed by the option being removed and BMW stating that it was an accident that option was even available and hasn't been seen since.
I'm a glutton for punishment, so lets look at the Mustang. This one specifically states the Remote Start system is available on the 10-speed auto, changes the transmission to the auto when you add it, and makes you remove it if you switch back to manual.
So... I think you're full of it.
EDIT: You do realize my comment was about Remote Start... right? I bolded remote start in the quote above my comment for a reason.
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This already happens in other countries.
The highest quality car in Japan is the Toyota Century. It’s used primarily by heads of state and business leaders.
The Toyota Century has a wool interior by default. The Japanese believe it is higher quality because it is silent when you move on it, and because it is much more comfortable than leather in hot or cold conditions. And I think they are right about this … leather is more utilitarian than luxury.
Some of the higher end JDM Lexus models like the LS600 could also be trimmed in wool. But it was an upgrade option - the base spec models were trimmed in leather.
The highest quality car in Japan is the Toyota Century. It’s used primarily by heads of state and business leaders.
The Toyota Century has a wool interior by default. The Japanese believe it is higher quality because it is silent when you move on it, and because it is much more comfortable than leather in hot or cold conditions. And I think they are right about this … leather is more utilitarian than luxury.
Some of the higher end JDM Lexus models like the LS600 could also be trimmed in wool. But it was an upgrade option - the base spec models were trimmed in leather.
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Perhaps so, but I don't think they were upholstering cars with leather in Florence 700 years ago...
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I think that was missed, and they are referring only to ventilated seats
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My parents had a 740 estate, with very nice velour covered seats and a 940 with only slightly less nice cloth.
Effortlessly comfortable and not sticky or chilly regardless of the weather.
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My car didn’t offer leather seats, only artificial leather, but in the trim I chose it did come with real leather on the steering wheel and gear shift.
I find the artificial stuff fine as far as sitting on it goes. It’s so soft that it has developed wrinkles where it gets compressed when I’m getting in and out of the car, like real leather.
But the tactile feeling on that wheel is buttery smooth in a way that the fake stuff can’t be. I didn’t know how lucky I was that this was available.
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Lol, that dawned on me when I noticed their edits. Shit happensI think that was missed, and they are referring only to ventilated seats
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My very first car, a Volvo sedan, had wool-upholstered seats. They are still the most comfortable seats of any car I have owned since then. That car was a 1969 model year. I’d trade the leather seats in my current car for nice wool in a heartbeat.
Note: I don’t have children or dogs.
Note: I don’t have children or dogs.
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If the other options are at least as comfortable and durable, I'm all for it. I had my mk4 gti for ~15 years, and the leather seats still looked and felt fantastic.
Unfortunately, a lot of manufacturers' cloth seats are still awful on pretty expensive cars. Hyundai's cloth seats in the lower trim Ioniq 5s were incredibly annoying and uncomfortable to me, the h-tex and N seats felt good.
Unfortunately, a lot of manufacturers' cloth seats are still awful on pretty expensive cars. Hyundai's cloth seats in the lower trim Ioniq 5s were incredibly annoying and uncomfortable to me, the h-tex and N seats felt good.
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I have a 91 CRX SI which I am restomodding. I made custom brackets for leather seats from a Integra. I like leather seats. It also sports a whole host of Integra bits, including a GSR head on the B16 engine, and suspension components.
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6 Speed manual Challengers were not available with remote start. I know because I wanted one (still do want a SCAT pack 392). Even in the configurator new, that option was n@ with a manual per the website.
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BMW iX uses leather tanned from olive leaf extract which is supposed to be more sustainably and better for environment.
Could just be marketing though. Probably still better than any synthetic fabric/coverings.
and leather dash is embossed with olive branch.
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"t seems we shouldn’t expect eco seats woven from recycled plastics."
On a luxury car? Those "eco seats" aren't doing much for the planet.
On a luxury car? Those "eco seats" aren't doing much for the planet.
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OptimusP83
Ars Praefectus
Having driven different flavors of Audi A4s the past 2 decades (holy shit though, thats a longer time than I realized) I've gotten very used to their partial leather seats and I'm fine with them. They use leather on the center portions and vinyl on the side bolsters and headrest and its fine except when the vinyl cracks after a decade. My bigger issue with them, which was exacerbated by the relatively slippery surfaces, was how unsupportive they were side to side. A few years ago on my current 2008 A4 Avant, I swapped in some newer model A4 alcantara sport seats and they've been amazing. I was worried the alcantara would get dirty easily or be hard to clean but neither has been the case. The much more supportive side bolsters and the grippiness of the fabric are really awesome. If anything the fabric is a bit TOO grippy and I usually have to wiggle around awkwardly to settle in a bit.
Either way, I'm sort of a fan of fabrics.
The worst (when you have young kids) are those perforated leather seats. My wife's car has them and you have no idea how awful it is to try to clean food and or puke out of those perforations. ugh...
Either way, I'm sort of a fan of fabrics.
The worst (when you have young kids) are those perforated leather seats. My wife's car has them and you have no idea how awful it is to try to clean food and or puke out of those perforations. ugh...
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I'm a pretty frugal consumer, so I'm not really a target consumer for luxury cars (Want easy to clean seats ? A bottle of fabric stain protector is about 20$ and will last longer than your car will). But even if I was into luxyry cars, I just hate sitting on leather seats in a car that spent some time under the sun. I also find it slippery/sticky and always fear that I will scratch it somehow. I wouldn't buy a leather couch for the same reasons, although I am into high end furniture when the quality justifies the cost. I once considered buying an upgraded variant of the car model I had chosen because some options were interesting, but the salesperson told me ot was only available with leather seats, and it really was a deal breaker.
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Gosh, there seems to be lots of semi-unnecessary reinventing of the wheel. I loved the "MB-Tex" vinyl in my 20+ year old used Mercedes vehicles I first drove. It appeared flawless compared to actual leather seats in Lincoln Town Cars only 5 years old, and could be easily scrubbed with dish soap without ever needing regular conditioner or treatment like leather does. My second used Mercedes I got from an auction had blood spatter on the ceiling, and presto--it washed right off the vinyl. Only downside was you definitely felt the extreme weather temps when you first sat.
That textile fabric by Cadillac (and GM) shown here is crap. I have it in my Volt on the ceiling and it's a sensory nightmare--and a hassle to wash if anything gets on it which inevitably will. I'd rather have that thick furry plush upholstery Cadillac had in the 80s. Mercedes did their interiors right, except for their cracking wood accent trims. I wish car interior designers would remain more utility minded.
That textile fabric by Cadillac (and GM) shown here is crap. I have it in my Volt on the ceiling and it's a sensory nightmare--and a hassle to wash if anything gets on it which inevitably will. I'd rather have that thick furry plush upholstery Cadillac had in the 80s. Mercedes did their interiors right, except for their cracking wood accent trims. I wish car interior designers would remain more utility minded.
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Not in my case: most fake leather is worse than textile, whereas real leather is nice. I’m not sure how much I’d pay for real leather (not “genuine leather”, which isn’t), if it were a standalone option, but if it is good quality it is both breathable and durable.
Wool sounds nice when it’s new, but I’d expect durability problems.
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The thing I hate most about faux leather is within a year it'll start "flaking" all over the place, with that top layer just making the worst kind of mess. It's a major reason I hate that faux leather stuff, especially on chairs and headphones. Here's hoping this olive leaf stuff is better.
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lol no it's not: certainly not in general at least. If you want to claim that about very specific leather products you can try, but you'll have to back it up. The vast majority of leather produced is from cow hide, and there's more cow hide produced by the meat industry than there is demand.
Even PETA doesn't claim that leather is more than a "coproduct" of the meat industry.
And PETA is, simply, entirely wrong in saying that when it applies to the majority of leather, so again, cowhide based. The median value of a raw cowhide is too low to have a significant impact on raising cows in general. Equally, sadly, if leather was truly a valuable "coproduct" rather than byproduct, cows would be treated FAR better, to try to be sure to raise them with the best hides possible.
Current market pricing on cattle is $240/CWT live. Current USDA estimated average pricing for cattle hide is $1.21/CWT live.
It's simple math: at the raw byproduct level (what farmers are selling to leather producers), cow hides are 0.5% of the value of slaughter cattle. Calling it even a coproduct is simply ludicrous. You can't sell unprocessed leather for nearly enough to be worth raising a cow for it.
Prices for leather products don't reflect the cost of the cow hide at wholesale, they reflect all the processing to end up with the tanned and dyed finished leather and then working it into a final product. But various organizations like to point to "expensive leather" as meaning that it represents a high value in the animal hide. It (sadly or not) doesn't.
The worst problems with leather are actually chrome tanning related by and far, especially when it's shifted to impoverished or corrupt countries with lax environmental regulations/enforcement, like the US. Veg tan doesn't have the toxicity and related pollution issues, but doesn't result in the texture, more supple handling, and sleek look that chrome tanning can give. Which sadly tends to exclude its use because it's not what people expect, even if it could be milled to an adequate softness.
In terms of current reality of the meat industry, veg tan leather would be, if anything, probably a more sustainable and environmentally friendly product than plastic based alternatives (PU/PVC pleathers). PVC obviously represents a high ecological impact plastic, with concerns about continued offgassing in soft PVC products. PU is better, but is still normally a toxic manufacturing process with VOC emissions from solvents. Water borne PU helps lower these but isn't perfect. And neither PU nor PVC are biodegradable. They don't involve the death of an individual animal to produce them, but at the same time their ecological impacts can't be ignored, and on a wider scale may be as bad or worse when considering veg tan leather, at least, as a byproduct of animals already being slaughtered and as an insignificant portion of the carbon footprint of a animal already being raised for meat. But of course textile leathers used for cars/etc are generally all chrome tan.
By the time we could hope to see a reduction in cattle farming to a point where demand for leather products outstripped the amount from it being a meat industry byproduct, ideally truly biofriendly mycelium based leather alternatives will be able to be produced at a reasonable cost and large enough scale. Equally there's been interesting work with palm based textiles. Cork based textiles have been around for a bit, and the cork itself is highly sustainable, but the backing and related processing to get it to the point of being used as a textile leather alternative often isn't great.
Look, I'm not out to deny ANYONE the side that they are morally against all slaughter animal products and byproducts. I 100% respect that. But I find the stance that "vegan leather", when it is plastic based, to somehow be "just fine!" to be just as objectionable for being a terrible whitewashing of products that definitely DO have negative ecological impacts. The final picture is complicated and imperfect, because even with veg tan leather, the pickling process has some negative sides, including water use and CO2 release from liming. Traditional dehairing uses sodium sulfide, so not great. Water usage for cleaning is high, although reclaimable. And obviously, like I keep re-iterating, veg tan doesn't get used for a lot of things where it would actually be a great choice for high wearability and a very cleanable surface.
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Yeah, I was gifted a wallet made out of actual thick leather and I can already tell it's going to last a very long time and not crack flake or wear through to the substrate like most wallets with either a thin veneer of leather or something synthetic. There's a reason leather had so many applications before synthetic materials, it's insanely durable
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Labelling of leather products is a real problem. Bonded or bicast "leather" is often sold without any qualifiers, and most people assume they're getting durable, full-grain or top-grain leather.
However, both bonded and bicast leather share more in common with synthetic "leather" than they do with actual full-grain leather. In both cases, what you're actually getting is a leather by-product coated with plastic, with a similar construction to synthetic leather.
With synthetic "leather", layers of PVC or polyurethane are built up on an embossed paper, which gives it the appearance of leather grain. This is then adhered to a fabric backing, sometimes with a foam layer in-between.
Bicast leather is made from the same process, using the fibrous lower-grade layer of leather (that is split off when making full-grain leather) instead of cloth as the backing. Bonded leather also uses the same process, but with the backing being constructed from shredded leather scraps and dust that are glued together.
In all cases (bonded, bicast or synthetic), what you're actually seeing and touching is plastic, not leather. However, somehow, in many countries, these products are allowed to be sold as "leather" with no qualifier.
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You have some valid points. But, it really depends on the textiles. My wife's Honda CR-V has fabric on the top of the center console and on the doors and it's getting discolored and stained after only a few years. I'll take hard plastic over that any day.
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Honestly I'd rather they used repairable assemblies that allowed for easy re-upholstery (e.g. things like effectively friction tacked/clamped by how it assembles) instead of only factory part replacements. Then fabric would be PERFECT and even readily CUSTOMIZABLE. But instead it's all glued when it's used in places like that. Manufactured to be trashed, planned obsolescence smh.
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KHAN!!! Khan! khan... we please get the Velour Seats back? Mr. Rourke wants to know.
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Statistical
Ars Legatus Legionis
Pleather or vegan leather (both terms should be illegal) will not. It is just plastic. It is seats made out of plastic and they will be plastic for centuries to come well excluding the microplastics that break off and end up in water supply and food.
If there was truth in advertising all these vegan leather products would have to be described as plastic and then sales would likely tank 80% and prices with them and they would be entry level products.
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Statistical
Ars Legatus Legionis
Yeah things like boats can be endlessly upgraded or modified. It is why you have 50 year old sailing yachts still out there. Entirely new interiors, electrical systems, and in some cases engines.
Cars though usually require factor part replacements making deep customization nearly impossible and which are so expensive that you reach a point where while the car technically still runs it makes more sense to junk it and buy another one.
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An awful lot of people must wear shorts or very funny clothing. I always ride on cloth because I always wear (long) pants in my car, so the leather seat isn’t sticky and never that hot (though ventilation is a winner).
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I eventually bought a real leather belt and, years later, it still looks brand new.
I'd still rather have cloth seats. Yeah, durability isn't as good so you'd probably have to reupholster twice as often, but it's going to be significantly more comfortable the whole time. At least, the front seats anyway. The more of these comments I read, the more I'm convinced that OEMs really should offer a "mixed-set" option, with cloth up front and something more durable and easier to clean in the back for kids, dogs, and whatever/whomever else is back there that didn't pay for the vehicle.
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All the AC in the world, short of ventilated seats that kinda toss the durability and ease of cleaning benefits of leather/fake leather out the window anyway, can't stop my back and ass from being drenched after riding home on a hot day. And on a winter day, somehow those same surfaces can cut straight through a winter jacket and pants until the seat heaters warm up (and then become physically painful and gross feeling to me, because I get sweaty again, because they don't breathe).
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As someone who was a kid once, I hate the idea of back seats made of leather for the kids, since I remember just how uncomfortable that was back then.
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Well, probably fake leather. No sense wasting the good stuff on them. And, personally, I'd absolutely still do it while remembering how much vinyl seats sucked when I was a kid. And my justification would probably be similar to my parent's if I asked them about it today.
<rant>
It's my vehicle. I paid for it. The kid(s)/pets are not going to respect, care, or likely even notice if I pay for better rear seats. Rather they are going to accidentally do everything in their power to destroy them, so why pay more? Kind of like buying a kid a Specialized bicycle or an expensive smart phone that they are going to destroy. Nah, screw that. It's my money. You get a Huffy and a Nokia flip phone. You want something better, you save up chore-money and buy it yourself.
</rant>
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When my dad finally replaced the torturous leather seats with textile, it was a mercy we all appreciated. No more burns, no more added shivering, it just felt nice.
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I'm sure it was. And who knows, if we end up having a kid (not guaranteed), and that kid demonstrates that they can respect things, maybe I'll change my mind. It's just a plan at this point. A phrase that can be equally applied to childrearing as it can to combat operations, "No plan survives contact with the Enemy." /s
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Volvo may offer a wool but not in the higher line trims in any US model the last time I was looking at buying not that long ago.
The US obsession with leather makes no sense. Even Stressless - which offers fabric on many of it’s chairs - does not in the US.
I would love to be surveyed by AutoPacific because what I see in the marketplace does not match what I would like to see.
The whole leather thing is as silly as sunroofs. I have to pay for it but never use them.
The US obsession with leather makes no sense. Even Stressless - which offers fabric on many of it’s chairs - does not in the US.
I would love to be surveyed by AutoPacific because what I see in the marketplace does not match what I would like to see.
The whole leather thing is as silly as sunroofs. I have to pay for it but never use them.
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Any time I've driven a car with a sun roof, I've kept the shutter closed because all it does is add extra potential to get blinded by glare. Convertibles make more sense, because you get that feeling of being outside with the wind in your hair and all, but sun roofs just don't appeal to me.Volvo may offer a wool but not in the higher line trims in any US model the last time I was looking at buying not that long ago.
The US obsession with leather makes no sense. Even Stressless - which offers fabric on many of it’s chairs - does not in the US.
I would love to be surveyed by AutoPacific because what I see in the marketplace does not match what I would like to see.
The whole leather thing is as silly as sunroofs. I have to pay for it but never use them.
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I leave the shutter open, because it's there, it doesn't bother me, and why not. But I don't get the appeal, either. If it weren't for the fact that they automatically throw it in at a certain trim level, I could happily live without it. I imagine the panoramic ones would probably get on my tits with the glare though.
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