Aircraft carrier captain lost his command because of “Catch-22” COVID-19 dilemma

Navy Secretary: "We... expect more from the Commanding Officers of our aircraft carriers."

Read the whole story

 

[Voyna i Mor]

Yeah, but these aren't tanks; they're scraps of cloth. The CDC is going so far as to recommend making them at home, so it doesn't seem beyond the abilities of the military to step in here, given the serious shortage of masks and their status as an official (if tepid) recommendation.

I'm pretty sure that sewing hasn't been a required skill for sailors for about 100 years now.

The services used to make all kinds of things back in the day. Now the services have contractors preparing meals at Combat Outposts (COPs) which frequently come under enemy fire.

I'm afraid you are wrong, though perhaps not for the USN.

When my father was doing his officer training at the start of WW2, they were taught sewing, darning and basic cookery. When the inevitable smartass asked of cookery classes "CPO, why do we need to learn this stuff?" he got the reply "Well, Sir, when your cook's been shot someone is going to have to teach someone else to take over."
The point was that in wartime there wasn't time to teach basic skills to a comfortable surplus of ratings, so new officers were given the basics which they could then pass down the chain of command of their crews.
Incidentally, my father, who is an atheist, also had to conduct Sunday service because his boat was too small to have a chaplain. He has never, ever told me about what he said in his sermons.

 

[Luddite Curmudgeon]

Am I wrong in thinking that when he escalated it above his immediate superior, they probably got denied as well and as a result leaked it to get media attention?

Somehow Modly doesn't seem like they're going to inspire a strong sense of personal loyalty.

Modly sounds like the kind of civilian who knows absolutely nothing about the military chain of command. Crozier knew exactly what he was doing by documenting everything, and now that it's out, the questions are now on said chain.

 

[DarthSlack]

1. There is literally zero evidence that Trump forced Mobly's hand in any way

Except for Mobly admitting to a reporter that fear of Trumpolini's reaction is what drove this decision.

Re-posting since apparently reading is hard:

By all accounts Cpt. Crozier was a sound tactician and wasn't burdened with an overabundance of ego. However, he gave in to panic when his requests were not met with what he deemed to be a 100% appropriate response. Frankly, I'm satisfied with the decision made by the Admiralty and supported by the Sec of the Navy.

He broke chain of command. And not in the 'my boss isn't listening so I'm going to his boss' sort of way but in the more petty 'none of my bosses are letting me get my way so I'm going to go tell on them' way.

Flag command officers don't panic, for any reason. They can't. The level of destructive power at their level precludes panic. And if they panic, nobody should want them in charge of anything more powerful than a fidgit spinner.

Arguably he made his decision because of a genuine concern for the health and welfare of his sailors. And I'm certain he saw the bigger picture in relation to his desire to protect them vs the need to protect everyone. But for whatever reason, he chose to stay at the tactical level at the cost of the strategic goal. So yeah, relieve him of command and let him spend the rest of his career at O-6. It's a good retirement.

^^^ See this, everyone? These are the talking points you'll be seeing deployed elsewhere.

Already deployed.
Acting Navy chief fired Crozier for ‘panicking’ — and before Trump could intervene

Acting Navy secretary Thomas Modly, in an extensive interview about the firing of the commander of a disease-threatened aircraft carrier, said he acted because he believed the captain was “panicking” under pressure — and wanted to make the move himself, before President Trump ordered the captain’s dismissal.
“I didn’t want to get into a decision where the president would feel that he had to intervene because the Navy couldn’t be decisive,” Modly told me in a telephone call from Hawaii at about 1 a.m. Sunday, Washington time. He continued: “If I were president, and I saw a commanding officer of a ship exercising such poor judgment, I would be asking why the leadership of the Navy wasn’t taking action itself."

Modly said he “had no discussions with anyone at the White House prior to making the decision” to relieve Crozier. Referring to his boss, Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper, he said: “That is Secretary Esper’s job, not mine.” Navy sources had said Modly told a colleague that Trump “wants him [Crozier] fired,” and though Modly denied getting any direct message to that effect, he clearly understood that Trump was unhappy with the uproar surrounding the Roosevelt.
Trump made clear his distaste for Crozier and his plea for help in comments to reporters Saturday: “I thought it was terrible, what he did, to write a letter. I mean, this isn’t a class on literature. This is a captain of a massive ship that’s nuclear powered. And he shouldn’t be talking that way in a letter.”

Modly sent me an email later Sunday morning, summarizing why he reached the decision: “I had serious doubts about how this CO might act if, for example, the ship came under attack by hypersonic missiles, or by cyber forces that crippled his communications, or by any other unpredictable event. It’s essential to love your crew, but it’s not sufficient.”

Basically, Acting Navy Secretary Modly is spinning like a top trying to smear Captain Crozier and blame him for everything. The real story, as most everyone here clearly sees, is that Trump again can't abide anything or anyone who intrudes on his own special view of reality.

 

[Sarty]

Am I wrong in thinking that when he escalated it above his immediate superior, they probably got denied as well and as a result leaked it to get media attention?

Somehow Modly doesn't seem like they're going to inspire a strong sense of personal loyalty.

Modly sounds like the kind of civilian who knows absolutely nothing about the military chain of command. Crozier knew exactly what he was doing by documenting everything, and now that it's out, the questions are now on said chain.

In point of fact, Modly graduated from the US Naval Academy and served seven years on active duty. To the extent he is unaware of how all of this works, he has only himself to blame.

 

[Sulla]

Hopefully Adm. Baker and acting Navy Sec. Modly both get the Covid.

 

[daveishereagain]

He did the right thing, a Captain's first responsibility is to their crew, the responsibility of an Admiral is to the fleet, while as a carrier they are the centerpiece of the fleet, this is a ship operations and crew health issue.

Actually, no. His crew, and the ship they man, are the tools he has to carry out his first responsibility; to defend his country.

It bears repeating that this is the military, and you can't apply the standards used in civilian life.

(yes, I'm a veteran so I have some standing here.)

How does pointlessly getting sick and dying of covid defend the country. If anything having less sick sailors improves the operational readiness of the ship. He didn't ask to scuttle the carrier at sea. He asked to move the sailors off the ship into a quarantine hospital with plenty of space to reduce the number of sailors who will get infected. Those that test positive would be more easily quarantined from the rest. The asymptomatic with proper spacing and reduced interaction with their fellow sailors would spread the disease less. If a war broke out in the next couple months that would mean MORE healthy sailors to man the ship.

Yes servicemen are expected to fight and if necessary die. They aren't expected to be injured and killed in order to make Trump look good.

You're not answering what I said. I was (yeah, pedantically) correcting a civilian misconception of what the military is. I was not speaking to the overall subject of the article. So.. off topic.

On topic, I agree with his actions. He WAS serving his primary responsibility, and sacrificed his flag in order to do so.

Right. He knew going outside the CofC would be sacrificing his career, but he acted rightly in an improper way. What sucks is the publicity and the Navy Secretary acting unprofessionally. When the guy at the top is a shit-for-brains, the rest of the gang will be too.

 

[Luddite Curmudgeon]

To me the letter written by Captain Crozier reads like something I would write if my previous attempts to get action were ignored and I was doing everything I could to save the lives of my crew. Why would someone with the experience and judgement of an aircraft carrier captain go from 0 to 11 without there being another element to the situation? The previous articles I've read didn't add this background information:

According to individuals familiar with what’s going on within the Navy, Crozier had made multiple requests for resources to move more people off the ship. But the Navy’s response had focused on testing crewmembers rather than isolating them

I wonder if there is more to this story than we know. There's enough I don't know about the internal workings of a job like this that I don't think I can make a judgement on Captain Crozier's actions but he certainly seems dedicated to the well being of his sailors. Doing what it takes to save lives of the people you lead regardless of the consequences for oneself would seem to be the mark of a good officer to me.

He's a captain of a carrier, he probably was a flight leader, squadron commander, or maybe a CAG before getting this billet. So he knows the chain. I'd find it hard to believe he jumped everybody, this letter is basically documentation of what he believes to be the case as the CO of the ship. He knew this would be a career killer.

The question now is who else will get the heave-ho. If Modly will really do an investigation, the first person that's getting the spotlight is the battle group commander that's supposedly a few doors down from Crozier. How did it get this far? What did he do to mitigate the concerns? Second, Seventh Fleet. The admiral there at the time was fired for the USS Fitzgerald collision back in 2017 and we all knew that was coming. I think the investigation findings mentioned some culture issues. So the question for them is pretty much the same, especially if the battle group commander raised the issue with them. Then we have PACFLEET. Their role in this would be directions and policies regarding Covid since the fleet is an Asian fleet. So the document with it's information should be used to ask hard questions up the entire chain. Unless SECNAV whitewashes it all.

 

[Imbrium]

Any thought by Trump that the military stands behind him should have evaporated long ago. He has consistently used them as nothing more than political pawns. There are many in the military who were aghast when he personally got involved in pardoning a war criminal, and now the firing of Capt. Crozier is even worse, especially in the eyes of many in the Navy.

Modly should have known better. He is a graduate of the Naval Academy, and was certainly schooled in leadership. He threw that all away to appease the sociopath in the White House, who needs to constantly hear sycophants tell him he is a genius, a great wartime leader. Every day at his "coronavirus briefing", (which is anything but), speaker after speaker is forced to say that he is doing a magnificent job, that he is providing great leadership.

The spine count in the rethug party is basically zero at this point. Maybe they should rename themselves the Jellyfish party, (although actual jellyfish may object and take them to court over that).

 

[Jim Z]

A competent commander in chief would have taken the right decision.

We have a sociopathic incompetent traitor as commander in chief and this has his putrid fingerprints all aver it. Listen to him rant about Crozier and it’s obvious. He has surrounded himself with cowards, toadies, and grifters. Esper on down are a disgrace. USMC disabled combat vet here by the way. 3 tours.

not that it's on you to speak on others' behalf, but can you think of any reason I encounter so many vets who still love the guy?

 

[Luddite Curmudgeon]

Am I wrong in thinking that when he escalated it above his immediate superior, they probably got denied as well and as a result leaked it to get media attention?

Somehow Modly doesn't seem like they're going to inspire a strong sense of personal loyalty.

Modly sounds like the kind of civilian who knows absolutely nothing about the military chain of command. Crozier knew exactly what he was doing by documenting everything, and now that it's out, the questions are now on said chain.

In point of fact, Modly graduated from the US Naval Academy and served seven years on active duty. To the extent he is unaware of how all of this works, he has only himself to blame.

OK, thanks. Did not know this. But it might just make him look worse on the surface of it all.

 

[Louis XVI]

Hopefully Adm. Baker and acting Navy Sec. Modly both get the Covid.

Ugh. I think the way Modly has handled this is despicable, and he should resign, but I don't wish this illness on anyone.

 

[Statistical]

Any thought by Trump that the military stands behind him should have evaporated long ago. He has consistently used them as nothing more than political pawns. There are many in the military who were aghast when he personally got involved in pardoning a war criminal, and now the firing of Capt. Crozier is even worse, especially in the eyes of many in the Navy.

Modly should have known better. He is a graduate of the Naval Academy, and was certainly schooled in leadership. He threw that all away to appease the sociopath in the White House, who needs to constantly hear sycophants tell him he is a genius, a great wartime leader. Every day at his "coronavirus briefing", (which is anything but), speaker after speaker is forced to say that he is doing a magnificent job, that he is providing great leadership.

The spine count in the rethug party is basically zero at this point. Maybe they should rename themselves the Jellyfish party, (although actual jellyfish may object and take them to court over that).

Modly does know better he doesn't care. He got the job (personal career advancement) by accepting that he is a Trump toodie. He is fulfilling that job requirement now. The only thing Trump cares about it loyalty to Trump. Nobody getting an appointment at this stage in the administration has any doubts on that. They know and they have accepted it. It is the cost of personal advancement under this administration. Loyalty to the dumpsterfire above party above nation above reason. Anyone who has shown any intestinal fortitude is gone.

 

[daveishereagain]

To me the letter written by Captain Crozier reads like something I would write if my previous attempts to get action were ignored and I was doing everything I could to save the lives of my crew. Why would someone with the experience and judgement of an aircraft carrier captain go from 0 to 11 without there being another element to the situation? The previous articles I've read didn't add this background information:

According to individuals familiar with what’s going on within the Navy, Crozier had made multiple requests for resources to move more people off the ship. But the Navy’s response had focused on testing crewmembers rather than isolating them

I wonder if there is more to this story than we know. There's enough I don't know about the internal workings of a job like this that I don't think I can make a judgement on Captain Crozier's actions but he certainly seems dedicated to the well being of his sailors. Doing what it takes to save lives of the people you lead regardless of the consequences for oneself would seem to be the mark of a good officer to me.

He's a captain of a carrier, he probably was a flight leader, squadron commander, or maybe a CAG before getting this billet. So he knows the chain. I'd find it hard to believe he jumped everybody, this letter is basically documentation of what he believes to be the case as the CO of the ship. He knew this would be a career killer.

The question now is who else will get the heave-ho. If Modly will really do an investigation, the first person that's getting the spotlight is the battle group commander that's supposedly a few doors down from Crozier. How did it get this far? What did he do to mitigate the concerns? Second, Seventh Fleet. The admiral there at the time was fired for the USS Fitzgerald collision back in 2017 and we all knew that was coming. I think the investigation findings mentioned some culture issues. So the question for them is pretty much the same, especially if the battle group commander raised the issue with them. Then we have PACFLEET. Their role in this would be directions and policies regarding Covid since the fleet is an Asian fleet. So the document with it's information should be used to ask hard questions up the entire chain. Unless SECNAV whitewashes it all.

Great points. There are a whole lotta questions demanding answers and it's certainly questionable if we'll get them.

 

[Deleted member 368075]

“the decidedly non-partisan nature of the COVID-19 pandemic”

The US response to this pandemic is absolutely a partisan issue. Decades of science denial by one party is why the US response has been so poor. Given the grave and immediate consequences it’s hard to imagine an issue where partisanism has had less impact.

 

[DC]

"I am a veteran".

It's a nice call to authority, but I'm not sure how that translates to a situation involving a pandemic, flag officers and presidents. Is the rank and file somehow prior to how this works? A mandatory crash course given to all enlisted just in case they get a flash promotion to theater officer?

 

[daveishereagain]

A competent commander in chief would have taken the right decision.

We have a sociopathic incompetent traitor as commander in chief and this has his putrid fingerprints all aver it. Listen to him rant about Crozier and it’s obvious. He has surrounded himself with cowards, toadies, and grifters. Esper on down are a disgrace. USMC disabled combat vet here by the way. 3 tours.

not that it's on you to speak on others' behalf, but can you think of any reason I encounter so many vets who still love the guy?

Vets are not immune to propaganda?

 

[fredsbend]

The phrase "catch-22" was coined in a military satire. The concept highlights obtuse administrative rules that are even intentionally self-defeating. A "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation is a bit more general, and closer to this situation. And that kind of situation is perhaps a military specialty.

I'm sure he knew the risks to his position when he sent the letter. I've never heard a story where shirking the chain of command wasn't punished.

 

[Luddite Curmudgeon]

By all accounts Cpt. Crozier was a sound tactician and wasn't burdened with an overabundance of ego. However, he gave in to panic when his requests were not met with what he deemed to be a 100% appropriate response. Frankly, I'm satisfied with the decision made by the Admiralty and supported by the Sec of the Navy.

No decision was made by the admiralty. Crozier was fired by a civilian and Trump lackey because protecting Trump is obviously the most important mission for the US Navy.

It is very political and unusual for the Sec of the Navy (or any branch) to directly relieve anyone of command for any reasons. There are at least six levels in the chain of command above Crozier. Usually discipline issues are handled at the lowest possible level. For Crozier that would mean the admiral directly above him or his boss. The fact that this was done by the Sec of the Navy a Trump appointee is telling.

I would think this would be a PACFLEET decision. SECNAV would have gotten a heads up or a FYI, maybe even a concur, but this action seems to be way higher that would warrant. Even the Fitzgerald collision fallout wasn't until after the investigation and the relieving of the Seventh Fleet commander I don't think was a SECNAV action (other than a concur, perhaps).

 

[Luddite Curmudgeon]

The captain's PRIMARY responsibility in peacetime is to ensure his ship is ready to fight, and to carry out its assigned missions.

Which requires healthy sailors.

The requests made by the Captain would have saved sailors from needless sickness and death. It would also have improved the operational readiness of the carrier.

Once again this Trumper talking point that it is the ship or the crew is just stupid. The ship needs her crew. Moving the crew on shore would ensure less of crew becomes infected. Meaning if hostilities broke out the ship would be less degraded in its ability to join the fight. Fools like you are pretending the Captain was demanding to sink the ship at sea and let the crew go to Disneyland. There is no scenario where more of the crew infected and incapacitated by the disease improves readiness if the carrier is needed in the next couple months.

The most important component of the carrier is the aircrew. If your air wing pilots are all sick, then a carrier is entirely useless and another wing needs to be deployed. Cruising on patrol with a crippled air wing isn't very useful.

 

[Luddite Curmudgeon]

The mark of a poor leader is when the rules become the only things that matter.

The USS Fitzgerald and the USS McCain were commanded by captains who knew about chronic maintenance issues, under-manning issues, chronic sleep issues, chronic lack of training, and equipment that was installed, but never worked right. They complained to their chain of command that their ships were not combat capable and were told to deploy regardless.

Both ships collided with freighters several times their size. Both ships lost crew (7 on the Fitzgerald, 10 on the McCain). Both captains were relieved of command and blamed. Both captains have a great sense of remorse that men and women died under their command because they didn't defy orders and refuse to deploy until their ships and crews were ready to be deployed.

Seventh Fleet commander was relieved 4 days before he was to retire as a result of the Fitzgerald investigation. I believe the current Seventh Fleet commander isn't the same person who replaced the guy who got relieved.
During a time of peace, this isn't unreasonable behavior.

Captain Crozier would have known about all of this (they're all under the same command), and would know what the answer would be if he requested permission to return and take care of his men. I expect he was fully prepared to face the consequences of his actions.

He apparently knows that one can comfortably live without a career. But not without a conscience.

 

[IntellectualThug]

The captain's PRIMARY responsibility in peacetime is to ensure his ship is ready to fight, and to carry out its assigned missions.

Which requires healthy sailors.

The requests made by the Captain would have saved sailors from needless sickness and death. It would also have improved the operational readiness of the carrier.

Once again this Trumper talking point that it is the ship or the crew is just stupid. The ship needs her crew. Moving the crew on shore would ensure less of crew becomes infected. Meaning if hostilities broke out the ship would be less degraded in its ability to join the fight. Fools like you are pretending the Captain was demanding to sink the ship at sea and let the crew go to Disneyland. There is no scenario where more of the crew infected and incapacitated by the disease improves readiness if the carrier is needed in the next couple months.

The most important component of the carrier is the aircrew. If your air wing pilots are all sick, then a carrier is entirely useless and another wing needs to be deployed. Cruising on patrol with a crippled air wing isn't very useful.

lol look at this guy he thinks the largest and most complicated warship in history needs a healthy crew to operate it what a nerd

 

[Unclebugs]

Am I wrong in thinking that when he escalated it above his immediate superior, they probably got denied as well and as a result leaked it to get media attention?

Somehow Modly doesn't seem like they're going to inspire a strong sense of personal loyalty.

Modly sounds like the kind of civilian who knows absolutely nothing about the military chain of command. Crozier knew exactly what he was doing by documenting everything, and now that it's out, the questions are now on said chain.

According to Wikipedia, Modly is a Naval Academy graduate and served several years as a helicopter pilot. Went on to get advanced degrees from Georgetown and Harvard Business School, worked in the private sector and public sector. So he does have military experience, but he is long divorced from serving, and I'm sure his post-Navy life has divorced him from the concerns or empathy for enlisted sailors. Furthermore, his attempt today via ship-wide PA system to denegrate Capt. Crozier to the sailors he sacrificed his career on, borders on hysteria.

 

[Chemical Tribe]

The only way he'll get his job back is if he shows Trump he killed some brown people over in Iraq.

 

[fredsbend]

It's different in the military. I served for some years and the last thing you want is to communicate to the enemy that your readiness is compromised. So yes, that means sacrifice and it sucks.

Which "enemy" is that? Who, exactly, is the United States currently at war with?

Everyone is a potential enemy. That's how militaries operate.

 

[equine_physics]

This incident shows just how far the United States has fallen in terms of respecting honor and listening to our military leaders on the front lines. My views on this are:

There is no question trump's hands were all over this firing. This is his MO, confront him, push back with facts and logic that makes him look bad and he will take you out. Will he ever do it directly? No,that way he keeps his hands "supposedly" clean while others take the heat (looking at you SecNav)

I also have no doubt the captain did first attempt working with CoC. As was pointed out, his boss was just down the aisle and most likely he went from casual conversation to more formal conversations, before trying to reach above his boss. My guess is his boss is a Trump licker and would never confirm Crozier talked with him. Honor is dead in today's Navy.

As to this notion of panic or "not following orders"...FFS. The man commanded a capital ship of the navy so this idea (that is now being floated sadly) of panic is gross character assassination. there are times when a captain has to consider his orders in the context of all that is going on around him and hope he or she makes a decision that saves the crew, saves the ship, and/or completes the mission. that captain made it clear we are at peace so the mission became second to crew and ship.

In WWII, Adm Halsey ordered Task Force 38 to sail directly into a typhoon. Orders to captains was to remain on station, but the heading given was about the worst to sail on (I believe it was stern quartering waves). My dad served on a DD in that task force and he told me about that event. His ship was rolling so hard that they could almost stand on a wall (he was sonar and next to the bridge). there came a point when his captain looked at the context of the order compared to what was happening and made the decision to change course. he put the ship more bow on and lessened the roll. He defied orders and saved his crew and his ship to fight another day.

Multiple ships sunk that day, more had severe damage and over 800 sailors were killed. One DD captain who had defied orders and still had a ship sailed around rescuing those who lost a boat. Not one of the captains that defied orders were court marshaled (and remember this was in wartime footing), the one rescuing sailors was given a commendation. Halsey's decisions resulted in crippling that Pacific fleet more than Japan had and he did take responsibility and stepped down. That our current CiC even took responsibility for anything.

Capt. Crozier was not in a war time footing, he new the numbers of how fast this virus could spread and the mortality rate, he also was aware that keeping a sick ship at sea would greatly reduce it's ability to operate and that there was a clear and doable solution that was best for his crew, his ship, and the Navy. that type decision making and processing should be commended.

It is shameful what Trump is doing to this man, but more so, what he is doing to the readiness of our overall military. A good guess is that more will not re-up, moral will drop, and commanders will have been stripped of the ability to truly command, but instead, "wait for orders".

 

[Statistical]

Well, to be frank firing him was even worse than his letter.
Now everybody and their dog knows about it.
So if Cozier's letter resulted in unhelpful attention and doubt about leadership, his to fire him certainly did anything BUT reestablish order.

I am sure they did what they thought was the best for the interest of the military, but they did exactly the opposite.
M.

Not firing him could conceivably create a situation where many officers and even servicemen neglect the chain of command. That kind of rot can be slow, but must be cut out quickly and with great prejudice. That's military dogma, non-negotiable.

Yes because the only two possible outcomes are always fire someone regardless of circumstances or always take no action regardless of circumstances.

 

[Luddite Curmudgeon]

The Navy is built on tradition and honor, and the leak destroyed both, which was due to Crozier's mass mailing.

I would argue that the real scandal wasn't the leaked mail but rather the situation it exposed: That Navy sailors were needlessly exposed to a serious disease, even though it was have been possible to prevent this. That's what really besmirched the Navy's honor. In a sane world, the top priority (after rectifying the situation itself, of course) would not be to shoot the messenger but rather to find and punish the person(s) responsible for unnecessarily endangering the sailors.

I might throw out that Seventh Fleet already had problems stemming from the Fitzgerald and McCain collisions. The commander at the time was relieved, so there may well be an uncomfortable spotlight there before Covid hit. If it's true that things were bungled, it could be that Seventh Fleet still is gun shy about any issues.

 

[IntellectualThug]

A competent commander in chief would have taken the right decision.

We have a sociopathic incompetent traitor as commander in chief and this has his putrid fingerprints all aver it. Listen to him rant about Crozier and it’s obvious. He has surrounded himself with cowards, toadies, and grifters. Esper on down are a disgrace. USMC disabled combat vet here by the way. 3 tours.

not that it's on you to speak on others' behalf, but can you think of any reason I encounter so many vets who still love the guy?

Just Google "Terminal Lance Angry Facebook Veteran" if you want an insider's look at that one.

 

[Statistical]

As was pointed out, his boss was just down the aisle and most likely he went from casual conversation to more formal conversations, before trying to reach above his boss. My guess is his boss is a Trump licker and would never confirm Crozier talked with him. Honor is dead in today's Navy.

Your reaching and also assuming and insulting someone you have never met. His superior has made zero statements other than the captain didn't inform him of this one specific email before sending it.

I guarantee you that is a true statement. If one plans to bypass the chain of command the worst possible thing to do would be to tell your superior because your superior would order you not to and which point when you do it you have committed a court marshallable offense (disobeying a direct order). The Navy may not like people who bypass the chain of command but they really don't like people who disobey a direct order from a superior.

By not disobeying a direct order it comes down to judgement. The Secretary of the Navy says he showed bad judgement and thus was relieved. We both know this is political, regardless bad judgement is a not crime not even under the UCMJ. If you are going to make the bold move of jumping the chain of command it is better for it to be a judgement call instead of you unlawfully disobeying the orders of a superior.

Don't make assumptions about his superior. Wait for facts.

 

[klarg]

“Acting out” Secretary Modly is a shameless lickspittle, so frightened of Trump that he would gladly throw anyone under the bus.

Captain Crozier’s honesty disturbed Trump’s cocoon of make-believe, so his courtiers had to act against the Captain.

 

[Luddite Curmudgeon]

What's the deal with the carrier strike group commander onboard the Roosevelt? I doubt Capt. Crozier would have gone over his head, surely knowing it would end his career, if that working relationship hadn't already broken down.

Adm. Baker is presumably still commanding the strike group from the Roosevelt. I wonder what that's like for the admiral and the crew members as they pass each other in those now-infamous passageways. It doesn't seem like there would be a lot of mutual respect.

I think Adm Baker is in full CYA mode. The spotlight is fully on him now, especially since the letter is public. The questions will be (or should be) how much of this is true? What did you know, and what did you do about it? Did you raise this with Seventh Fleet? If not, why not? So on and so forth.

I say 'should be' because of a likelihood of a whitewash investigation. Usually, something this serious would also result in more heads rolling. And Adm Baker's is the next one up.

 

[equine_physics]

He did the right thing, a Captain's first responsibility is to their crew, the responsibility of an Admiral is to the fleet, while as a carrier they are the centerpiece of the fleet, this is a ship operations and crew health issue.

No, his first responsibility is to his orders, which can literally include death for his crew.

A captains orders need to serve a purpose and in a peace time setting, those orders should not be such that they place service men and women in the path of involuntary death. It is stupid to think that a captain of a ship, in peace time, would be required to watch his crew members die, because of an immoral order. I think WWII taught us that "just following orders" is not a valid defense.

While a captain needs to follow orders he also needs to take into consideration if those orders achieve a desired goal. In war time, captain's were orders to fight again a greater fleet, but at the time they knew that even if they got destroyed, if they were able to damage or take out an enemy ship they served a greater cause and yes, crew and ship may come second.

However, there is no such requirement for sacrifice in a peacetime footing. You make it out that if a skipper was ordered to sail into North Korea and start shooting he should not question or consider the larger picture of the outcome? Orders are meant to keep order when there is chaos around, but they are not meant to create chaos in the hands of ill informed or narcissistic leaders.

 

[daveishereagain]

As was pointed out, his boss was just down the aisle and most likely he went from casual conversation to more formal conversations, before trying to reach above his boss. My guess is his boss is a Trump licker and would never confirm Crozier talked with him. Honor is dead in today's Navy.

Your reaching and also assuming and insulting someone you have never met. His superior has made zero statements other than the captain didn't inform him of the email before sending it.

I guarantee you that is a true statement. If one plans to bypass the chain of command the worst possible thing to do would be to tell your superior because your superior would order you not to and which point when you do it you may have committed a court marshallable offense. The Navy may not like people who bypass the chain of command but they really don't like people who disobey a direct order from a superior.

Don't make assumptions about his superior. Wait for facts.

Well said. The captain knew full well the penalty he would face,so he did his direct superior a favor by leaving him in the dark of his action thereby making the situation not worse for all involved. And I agree nobody here knows the admiral personally, so his political stance is irrelevant .

 

[unoriginal]

The phrase "catch-22" was coined in a military satire. The concept highlights obtuse administrative rules that are even intentionally self-defeating. A "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation is a bit more general, and closer to this situation. And that kind of situation is perhaps a military specialty.

I'm sure he knew the risks to his position when he sent the letter. I've never heard a story where shirking the chain of command wasn't punished.

I'm reminded of this amusing anecdote about Admiral Hyman G. Rickover:

Rickover became an early convert to the idea of nuclear marine propulsion, and was the driving force for shifting the Navy's initial focus from applications on destroyers to submarines. Rickover's vision was not initially shared by his immediate superiors: he was recalled from Oak Ridge and assigned "advisory duties" with an office in an abandoned ladies' room in the Navy Building. He subsequently went around several layers of superior officers, and in 1947 went directly to the Chief of Naval Operations, Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz, also a former submariner. Nimitz immediately understood the potential of nuclear propulsion in submarines and recommended the project to the Secretary of the Navy, John L. Sullivan. Sullivan's endorsement to build the world's first nuclear-powered vessel, USS Nautilus, later caused Rickover to state that Sullivan was "the true father of the Nuclear Navy."

Subsequently, Rickover became chief of a new section in the Bureau of Ships...

Source

 

[barrattm]

From the article:

Carriers are the very center of the Navy’s power-projection capabilities and the nuclear-powered fulcrum upon which the Navy’s warfighting doctrine is built.

They're not as hard-hitting or as far reaching as an Ohio class submarine...

Admittedly, a carrier like that is still pretty good military asset!

 

[fredsbend]

It's different in the military. I served for some years and the last thing you want is to communicate to the enemy that your readiness is compromised. So yes, that means sacrifice and it sucks.

Which "enemy" is that? Who, exactly, is the United States currently at war with?

Also more directly which enemy has access to the Naval secure Email System? Maybe the Navy should look into not having "the enemy" on their secure email system.

Well, it was probably routed through Hillary's home server /s