Canceling a subscription shouldn't be harder than signing up, FTC proposal says.
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“Click-to-cancel” rule would penalize companies that make you cancel by phone
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at which point the judges that vote in favor of keeping existing cancellation systems will be deep faked into joining all of the very worst memberships possible.
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Anecdotally, here in the EU, I've had a one single company that I previously bought products from, that's still keeping me on their marketing e‑mails list. Even though I sent them a GDPR request for the removal of all PII a while ago. 99% of the others just immediately complied.
The first time, I simply chalked it up to some internal mess-up. The second time, after their (prompt) apology and promise to look into it, I gave them a chance. Now that it happened a third time, I am considering whether to pick it up with them again or speak directly with my GDPR office. I still think they are a complete mess‑up internally, but that's a zero excuse even for a start‑up (one well established by now, actually). I might give them a last chance, but don't really think so – they should know better.
Mind you, that's been just over e‑mail, zero support calls needed, and 99% of other companies I asked to delete my data under GDPR had replied immediately to my simple e‑mail asking for that and I have never heard from them since. That wasn't even about cancelling some subscription, it was just about them deleting my PII from their systems and stopping spamming me with marketing "new product!" e‑mails I was no longer interested in.
And for any US libertarian nut job who thinks that "GDPR only selectively targets US companies to keep EU competitive" (fuck no!), there are sites that report on the fines. Yes, the US companies might take the lead in the biggest ones with Meta, but I somehow suspect that might have been because they fucked up so much because of Fuckerberg. Plenty of smaller (or not so smaller) EU violators in there being fined as well...
Big fines work, people. Even bigger % fines on global revenue work even better.
The first time, I simply chalked it up to some internal mess-up. The second time, after their (prompt) apology and promise to look into it, I gave them a chance. Now that it happened a third time, I am considering whether to pick it up with them again or speak directly with my GDPR office. I still think they are a complete mess‑up internally, but that's a zero excuse even for a start‑up (one well established by now, actually). I might give them a last chance, but don't really think so – they should know better.
Mind you, that's been just over e‑mail, zero support calls needed, and 99% of other companies I asked to delete my data under GDPR had replied immediately to my simple e‑mail asking for that and I have never heard from them since. That wasn't even about cancelling some subscription, it was just about them deleting my PII from their systems and stopping spamming me with marketing "new product!" e‑mails I was no longer interested in.
And for any US libertarian nut job who thinks that "GDPR only selectively targets US companies to keep EU competitive" (fuck no!), there are sites that report on the fines. Yes, the US companies might take the lead in the biggest ones with Meta, but I somehow suspect that might have been because they fucked up so much because of Fuckerberg. Plenty of smaller (or not so smaller) EU violators in there being fined as well...
Big fines work, people. Even bigger % fines on global revenue work even better.
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You do realize that what you posted didn't have anything to do with what you linked, right?
The customer hadn't tried to cancel Prime. She thought that if she didn't renew the credit card, Prime would end for non-payment. Instead, it was charged to another active card she had on file.
That's not how a responsible person cancels a subscription in the first place, and she never attempted to cancel Prime to begin with.
The story is pretty bullshit because any card on file with Amazon can be charged if one card or the other is declined for whatever reason. It's part of the TOS for Prime. To avoid that, never have more than one card on file with Amazon. Had she deleted her expired card, the payment method would default to the other card. Just putting a second card on Amazon allows them to authorize subscription payments to the backup payment method it if the original (default) payment method is unavailable or expired.
Purchases made with an expired card will be declined and not go to the backup payment method automatically, but they may ask you to choose a backup payment method when it's decline. Subscriptions are presumed to be wanted, and so payment reverts to the backup method if the default method isn't available to continue the subscription uninterrupted.
The woman was an idiot for trying to cancel her Prime by letting the card she'd used on Amazon expire instead of just canceling it. It's actually very easy to cancel Prime.
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Oh I completely agree with this. If all it takes for me to enter a binding contract with regular payments to you is a few clicks on your website, then getting out of it must be possible the same way. I've had it too many times where a simple cancellation required me waiting forever in a phone queue, or interacting with someone in a chat window, just so they can try to somehow keep me as a paying customer.
Hint: if someone wants to cancel, they usually have made up their minds about the product. You're just wasting people's time.
Hint: if someone wants to cancel, they usually have made up their minds about the product. You're just wasting people's time.
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Makes sense. Yeah, people think that simply canceling a card will cancel every subscription tied to the card, and that's nonsense. Even if Amazon's TOS didn't cover this issue...which as you note it does, and it allows them to use other cards on the account...people need to understand that simply canceling a payment method doesn't mean you don't owe money. It just means they cannot easily collect the money you owe. Yes, most reasonable companies will simply terminate your access for nonpayment in this case. But are they required to? Or can they leave your access active, maintain your account in a past-due status (accruing charges monthly/yearly/etc.), then simply forward you to collections once it's economically viable to do so?
I worked at a Blockbuster Video wayyyy back in the day. We'd get people all the time who'd rack up like a $50 late fee (yes, our late fees were absurd, I know) and triumphantly shout "well I'm not paying that, and I'm never coming back here!" And...they were half right at most. Because if we had a current card on file, they would be paying it, because every month we'd charge off overdue accounts to the cards listed on file. Too easy. And if their card on file had expired? Off to collections, that'll be on you to deal with when you go to buy a house or a car or whatever, I guess.
The idea that not owing a company money was as easy as just never contacting them again, or deleting your payment details, that hasn't been a thing since like the invention of the automobile. Things follow you, whether you know it or not.
I do hope the FTC takes action on this though, because yes the companies that do this can die in a fire. I'll never forget subscribing to digital access to my local paper, super easy to less than a minute, then a year later when I decided to move on I had to call them personally, during normal working hours, sit on hold for like fifteen minutes, then verbally spar with their retention personnel until they were willing to verify that no, I'd not be charged anymore. Even then I half expected the gym membership treatment where you get another bill because you didn't cancel "the right way."
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Did you do this early on? AFAIK, if you're monthly, they don't refund you anything, but you get to use all services until the end of the billing month. If you pay annually, then same difference.. when the billing date rolls by for the end of the year since you first signed up, that's when it stops (no prorated refund).
One bone I do have to pick with when I cancelled Amazon Prime was when I cancelled, they make you click through 6 pages to finally do so! The last page was worded in a way such that they make you think you're done, without explicitly saying so. Afterwards, they'll send you emails to resub. Click on that link, and you're immediately resubbed (so not even a confirmation of the link you clicked). They throw hurdles your way when I wanted to cancel my subscription, but make it very easy to take your money. I'm wondering if this part of Amazon Prime will fall under that scrutiny.
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_GntlStone_
Ars Praetorian
That's when you call your credit card company and dispute the charges. Give them the "I've attempted to cancel on xx/xx/xx and xx/xx/xx and they are unavailable."
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Huh, out of random curiosity when did you cancel?
That was not my experience canceling Prime.
I'm wondering if they do A vs B comparison stuff, or maybe user data drives the approach they show, or if perhaps a change since anti-competiveness investigation started in 2021.
We cancelled it n 2020 and it was a pain in the ass, I still have to decline restarting it every time I check out now before I advance through checkout.
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They already have these. Citi ccards call them "Virtual Numbers". Bank of America used to have them too but I can't remember what they were called. BoA discontinued that service, supposedly, because their customers weren't using it. I called BS on that one and moved to Citi. I use Citi Virtual Numbers for any charge that I don't make with a physical ccard. They are very convenient. You won't let me cancel the service? I'll just close/cancel that virtual number. Cry me a river.
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Can't wait to see the cable cos fight for an exception... Goodbye Spectrum, Comcast, Verizon...
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Even Consumer Reports wants me to extend my subscription without telling me how much subscription I have left. Think they will be behind this?
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While I'm in no way advocating for anyone to do that... it would be funny AF if someone did. Imagine signing Clarence Thomas up for a bunch of really out there gay porn magazines and DVDs and having it delivered to his SCOTUS office, or his wife's office. Or signing the women Justices up for a bunch of Planned Parenthood literature. I'd say get the conservative Justices a subscription to some kind of law review periodical, but that might be a little too on the nose.
Then you deepfake a video of them opening it and watching it. Or deepfake Alito at a drag show, participating. Not just like that guy from (was it Tennessee) who passed that law banning drag shows and it came out he was following some transvestite man on Instagram and posting a bunch of comments. You may not even really need to deepfake anything. Just go around to all the BSDM dungeons and whatnot around the DC area and odds are they know a LOT of interesting things about a LOT of conservative politicians.
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Republicans generally support anything that would make people’s lives worse.
Democrats are generally HORRIBLE at messaging so they constantly lose to the Make People’s Lives Worse party.
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I summarize it as "Republicans are evil and Democrats are incompetent."
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Nah, they don't need citations for alternative facts. They're facts. Self-evident facts. Clearly every consumer enjoys standover tactics and misleading and deceptive conduct when trying to cancel a subscription for something that probably never should have been a subscription in the first place.
Fucking Republicans. Is there no end to the extent to which they will pander?
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chaos215bar2
Ars Praefectus
Not my experience. I cancelled Prime with 2 months left in an annual subscription and Amazon tried to walk away with those last two months of service. Service ended the instant I hit the confirm button and I had to call to get a refund.
This was immediately after Amazon refused to acknowledge they had silently slipped a shipping date yet again. (An occasional delay is okay. But frequent slips followed by gaslighting your customer over the original promised date is not okay.)
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They ARE serving their constituents. Which are the businesses that contribute the money that gets them elected. You are mistaken if you think their constituents are the voters in their districts.
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To this day, I have a magazine service I subscribed to for my mother, billing $19.99/mo. I've called to cancel more times than I care to count in the last 10yrs. I've had my debit card changed. Yet somehow it kept making it's way to my account. I had the bank block the vendor but they can only do it for a year. Please tell me why a since canceled debit card number, receives a charge that shouldn't even go through, gets forwarded to the my account and billed. Then why a bank, can only block the vendor and can't stop the charge in it's tracks permanently when I've gone over numerous times that every time I call the vendor and cancel, I'm met with retention specialists who refuse to take no, and a solid voice recorded call of "please for the love of existence, cancel my [expletive] subscription for the nth time for the last 10yrs".
Neither the vendor nor the bank refuse to do anything, so for every other year of those 10yrs and counting, I have to spend time to request all those charges disputed. I've since stopped diligently looking for the charge and calling it in the first bill the block expires. Now I wait on the 12th month, and force the bank to dispute 12 charges.
I hope this bill goes through. I can only imagine the amount of other individuals who may be in the same situation, if not worse, and in not better financial circumstances facing this abusive tactic.
All parties, including the bank are guilty of fraudulent embezzlement of any monies taken and just as important, time spent and wasted.
Neither the vendor nor the bank refuse to do anything, so for every other year of those 10yrs and counting, I have to spend time to request all those charges disputed. I've since stopped diligently looking for the charge and calling it in the first bill the block expires. Now I wait on the 12th month, and force the bank to dispute 12 charges.
I hope this bill goes through. I can only imagine the amount of other individuals who may be in the same situation, if not worse, and in not better financial circumstances facing this abusive tactic.
All parties, including the bank are guilty of fraudulent embezzlement of any monies taken and just as important, time spent and wasted.
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Ideally, a company would prove they're compliant with this rule by either proving they handle payments and cancellations in a compliant manner, or outsourcing payment and cancellation to a compliant third party. In an environment like that, Apple would still have a compelling story that they should be that third party.
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I wonder how this would impact subscriptions that provide a discount for committing to buy a certain amount up front. Like if when you subscribe to something you have the option for for 1 month at $30 or 12 months at $15. When someone cancels, would it be considered a Negative Option to inform the customer that they will have to pay penalties for canceling the agreement?
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I had a similar situation. Worse, Comcast not only didn't cancel my service, they signed me up for new ones. Given that I had sold my house that wasn't acceptable.
But I didn't call the cable company to complain. I lodged a complaint with the state Attorney General, on their website. I got a call from them the next day. The day after that I got a call from Comcast. They were so apologetic. "We see you called to cancel on this date; we'll refund you to this even earlier date. Please let us know if this is satisfactory."
Sadly for Comcast I was traveling at the time, and I told them I wouldn't be satisfied until I could actually see and cash the refund check. That will be three months from now, when I'm back from touring Europe. So they had to keep open a complaint with the AG's office that entire time. I hope it cost them a fortune in fines.
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No, that would get in the way of spontaneous purchases, which is the entire business model of many companies.
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I'm not a fancy professional legalmancer or anything; but is there some distinction between "negative option features" and "just plain cramming" that I'm supposed to be appreciating?
(Never mind the ridiculous assertion that people enjoy playing hunt-the-checkbox to try to avoid surprise charges; but bad faith is sort of a baseline expectation here.)
(Never mind the ridiculous assertion that people enjoy playing hunt-the-checkbox to try to avoid surprise charges; but bad faith is sort of a baseline expectation here.)
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Captain Trips
Smack-Fu Master, in training
Color me surprised that Republican didn't claim this is a "woke rule."
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Canadian Tire does that with its rewards cards so I didn't get one. It used to be coupons in the form of fake cash for decades. Any Canadian knows what Canadian Tire money is. But they went from giving back something like 5% for decades to just 0.05% then they eliminated the coupons and went with a plastic rewards card.
Plus you just knew they wanted your info more than anything else. I'm sure to TOS nobody reads is full of "may share with 3rd party" and I found this"
"In addition to the rich first-party data we can mine through our Triangle Rewards loyalty program, our Triangle credit card provides critical insights into our customers and their preferences and shopping behaviours," Greg Hicks, Canadian Tire president and CEO, said during a call with analysts to discuss the company's quarterly results. - BNN Bloomberg
Plus you just knew they wanted your info more than anything else. I'm sure to TOS nobody reads is full of "may share with 3rd party" and I found this"
"In addition to the rich first-party data we can mine through our Triangle Rewards loyalty program, our Triangle credit card provides critical insights into our customers and their preferences and shopping behaviours," Greg Hicks, Canadian Tire president and CEO, said during a call with analysts to discuss the company's quarterly results. - BNN Bloomberg
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Some credit card companies will provide you the courtesy of continuing to approve reoccurring subscriptions on your old card. You still have to cancel. AMEX is a company that does this. I had my card replaced for fraud and they kept paying previously established subscriptions so I didn’t immediately have to update them with new billing information.
Those sleazy merchants can and probably do take advantage of that loophole.
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I had to cancel my gym membership during COVID and my local gym was closed. I’d also just received a diagnosis that made it difficult to drive.
They were insistent that I had to “come in person” to cancel. I repeatedly pointed out that I’d been diagnosed with a neurological disorder and I was adjusting to medication and not driving. They didn’t care. They would not cancel over the phone. I finally threatened them with the state AG and they backed down.
It was unbelievable.
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macosandlinux
Ars Praefectus
Yep, the hidden "let me save a bit for couple months" button. Even if you consider staying all-along and not cancelling, this is an option to save a few bucks (the streaming giants will survive).
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macosandlinux
Ars Praefectus
Yes, terrifying actually what is legally allowed. It must be second to selling your soul.
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Wasn't That Fucking Orange Guy also abusing the lack of "easy cancellation" laws in his election campaigning? I remember an article about something like that in 2020, about how his donation website was so carefully worded as to hide that the "one time" donation was in fact a monthly recurring charge...
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This one?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donations.html
Also found this, that I don't remember seeing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/07/us/politics/republicans-donations-trump-defector.html
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Oh yes, that's it. And that “If you UNCHECK this box, we will have to tell Trump you’re a DEFECTOR.” quote is even worse than I thought, straight from Godfather territory – "you know, you have such nice children here, it would be a real shame if..."
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I'm 100% on board with this. I'd also expand it to:
If you can sign up for a subscription in a mobile app on your phone, you need to be able to cancel it in the same mobile app and not have to open a full web browser and browse their website.
If you can sign up for a subscription in a mobile app on your phone, you need to be able to cancel it in the same mobile app and not have to open a full web browser and browse their website.
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privacy.com provides exactly that - virtual cards for subscriptions. I canceled my Spotify by simply deleting my "Spotify" virtual card. I didn't even bother to look for a cancel option on the account.
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