There’s no sudden acceleration problem with Tesla, feds say

It's good news, but another federal Tesla defect probe deepened this week.

See full article...

 

[vought1221]

There was no unintended acceleration involved with European cars Like Audis during the 1980s either. After 60 minutes essentially tanked Audi sales in the United States, the NHTSA found that while the accelerator and brake were slightly closer together than in most American cars, the tearful stories were all simply people pressing the wrong pedal.

I’m much more interested in the outcome of the sensor study.

Edit: Punctuation

 

[ConnertheCat]

I'd be curious if any unintended acceleration case has ever not been a user error issue. Like, back with the Toyota/Prius back a few years ago.

 

[Cthel]

There was no unintended acceleration involved with European cars Like Audi’s during the 1980s either. After 60 minutes essentially tanked Audi sales in the United States, the NHTSA found that while the accelerator and brake were slightly closer together than in most American cars, the tearful stories were all simply people pressing the wrong pedal.

I’m much more interested in the outcome of the sensor study.

Unintended =/= uncommanded.

If someone presses the accelerator instead of the brake by mistake, the resulting acceleration may be commanded but it's still very much unintended.

 

[numerobis]

because a driver doesn’t need to hold down the brake pedal when starting a Tesla

I don't get what this is supposed to refer to, because on its face it's false. The car beeps at you if you're in park and pushing the accelerator (and it won't move when you do that); it beeps at you if you try to put it in park drive (out of park) and you don't have your foot on the brake.

Edit: oops I flipped the direction of the transition.

 

[time2lose]

I use OPD all the time when tootling around town in my Equinox EV and have developed a habit of pressing the brake once the vehicle comes to a stop while awaiting a signal. It provides just a bit more assurance that something like this won’t happen. It also (I assume) applies extra stopping force in the event I’m struck from behind, which may prevent me from striking a car in front or being forced well into an intersection.

 

[vought1221]

I'd be curious if any unintended acceleration case has ever not been a user error issue. Like, back with the Toyota/Prius back a few years ago.

One case of a retired CHP officer in Southern California involved a 'runaway' Toyota sedan that "would not slow down". No problems were found with the car; the accelerator had been commanded to WOT because the floor mat design involved the pedal assembly and interference resulted in a runaway.

There aren't any cars that can overpower their brakes in such a situation, so it remains a mystery why the retired officer didn't apply those; there's a good paper on the phenomena and response here:

https://web-static.stern.nyu.edu/om/faculty/zemel/Toyota_Draft_8_1_11.pdf

 

[numerobis]

Is this, uh, a joke? The driver may press the accelerator instead of the brake, and that would be Tesla's fault?

Am I missing something here? If someone cannot be trusted to not be confused by the pedals before starting their cars, I don't see how I would trust them on the road...

Engineering should take care to remember that the people driving the cars are humans. And humans are pretty dumb.

That said, we also haven't come up with a better solution than the two pedals despite having started trying out control methods well over a century ago.

 

[Guigsy]

Is this, uh, a joke? The driver may press the accelerator instead of the brake, and that would be Tesla's fault?

Am I missing something here? If someone cannot be trusted to not be confused by the pedals before starting their cars, I don't see how I would trust them on the road...

If your muscle memory from years of driving is to jump in, mash the brake pedal and punching the start button, with no danger if you get it wrong?

 

[JerryLove]

So what you’re saying is that you’ve never had an incident where you have confused one thing for another? Gosh, what’s it like to be “perfect”?

How often have you made that mistake while driving? How often have you hit the accelerator when you wanted to brake? How often have you put your car in drive in your garage rather than reverse? And if you did, did you blame the car?

There's "confuse" and then there's "confuse".

 

[JerryLove]

Essentially, because a driver doesn’t need to hold down the brake pedal when starting a Tesla

You don't "start" a Tesla. It's on before you open the door.

To come out of park, you are required to press the brake (just like every other car).

Bonus: Tesla will automatically put itself in park under a number of conditions where other cars might remain in drive.

That said: I don't trust Trump's NHTSA. This administration is just too corrupt.

 

[numerobis]

You can put it in drive without pressing brake pedal. Then you hit the accelerator one as if it is a brake and you have a flying off car.

Do you have a Tesla? Because I do, and through all the OTA updates in the five years I've owned it, it's consistently not been possible to put it in drive without pressing the brake pedal.

 

[vought1221]

I don't get what this is supposed to refer to, because on its face it's false. The car beeps at you if you're in park and pushing the accelerator (and it won't move when you do that); it beeps at you if you try to put it in park and you don't have your foot on the brake.

In response to unintended acceleration claims in the 1980s, Audi developed the shift lock mechanism that prevents shifting into a drive gear from park or neutral unless a driver has a foot firmly on the brake.

You can put it in drive without pressing brake pedal. Then you hit the accelerator one as if it is a brake and you have a flying off car.

Is that actually possible in a Tesla? Every single automatic transmission car now uses a shift lock.

Just a little history for the EV crowd.

 

[vought1221]

Unintended =/= uncommanded.

If someone presses the accelerator instead of the brake by mistake, the resulting acceleration may be commanded but it's still very much unintended.

Thanks - a good point. Of course, I -intended- to write uncommanded.

 

[fenris_uy]

Essentially, because a driver doesn’t need to hold down the brake pedal when starting a Tesla, its driver might put a foot on the accelerator by mistake, Lakafossis claimed, thus explaining about 200 incidents in which Teslas have crashed into garage walls or other parked cars. But as Lakfaossis noted in his petition, NHTSA has already determined that all of those crashes were driver error, and that’s the case today as well.

If that is what is happening, that's driver error, if you put your foot in the gas pedal, expect the car to move if it isn't in Park or Neutral. Failing to check that the car is in Park or Neutral is a problem that can happen with gas cars. So not a problem with EVs

 

[Varste]

I've never owned a full EV but the thought of OPD definitely sounds nice, especially in traffic as noted. My wife's Civic hybrid has a really good system I think, the blending from regen to friction brakes isn't noticeable, but it won't stop for you. I had a Renault Espace rental on a recent work trip, and it would physically move the pedal which I absolutely hated. It sounds kind of silly, but just moving the brake pedal a few millimeters from where you expect it to be definitely messes with your muscle memory.
Tesla's camera-only system continues to be a mystery, other than "Musk is cheap." He believes, or at least preaches, that enough training and algorithms and "AI" will solve the problem but there's no solving around a complete lack of visibility. It's not a tough engineering challenge, it's an impossibility. But since Tesla rarely gets punished for stupid decisions, it's a moot point.

 

[numerobis]

One-pedal driving is amazing but over time people forget how to brake and just hit the pedal they're used to without realising it's the wrong one.

But that's also true of 2- or 3-pedal driving. People pushing the accelerator thinking they have their foot on the brake is nothing new, and certainly not limited to EVs.

 

[Aurich]

You can put it in drive without pressing brake pedal. Then you hit the accelerator one as if it is a brake and you have a flying off car.

Can you 'start' a Tesla without holding down the brake pedal?

In my i4 for instance if you press the start button without holding down the brake pedal you turn on all the electronics, you can use the sound system etc, but you cannot actually go anywhere because it's like an ICE car where you've turned on the battery stuff but the engine is still off.

BMW requires you to hold down the brake pedal while hitting start to actually go into driving mode.

Which is so incredibly normal to me I don't even give it a second thought, and also feels like a pretty good idea. But Tesla does like to break conventions, so it wouldn't shock me to hear they ignore that concept.

 

[JerryLove]

Plenty of cases of Tesla owners mistaking the accelerator for the brake. Including an infamous crash in Guangdong China where two people were killed by a speeding Tesla whose clueless driver spent two kilometres with their foot mashed into the accelerator pedal.

Edit: video is age restricted and confronting.


View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/HkGRo9N9L34


One-pedal driving is amazing but over time people forget how to brake and just hit the pedal they're used to without realising it's the wrong one.

That's not Tesla specific though. This has been happening for a long time. It's a particular problem for the elderly.

Do you have some data showing that this is more common on cars with one pedal driving, particularly after accounting for confounding factors? I would genuinely love to see it as it would expand my knowledge.

I can't tell you that you are wrong; but I have yet to see something to indicate you are right.

 

[fenris_uy]

Engineering should take care to remember that the people driving the cars are humans. And humans are pretty dumb.

That said, we also haven't come up with a better solution than the two pedals despite having started trying out control methods well over a century ago.

So, the car should not move forward if it's in Drive and you press the gas pedal? When should the car move forward then?

 

[tytime]

I don't get what this is supposed to refer to, because on its face it's false. The car beeps at you if you're in park and pushing the accelerator (and it won't move when you do that); it beeps at you if you try to put it in park and you don't have your foot on the brake.

I think in the newer Tesla with Auto Shift turned on, if you press the accelerator while in park you’re confirming the auto shift choice. ie. You don’t need to press brake to get out of P.

Correction: Looks like you still need to tap brake pedal for Auto Shift to “shift”.

 

[AxMi-24]

Do you have a Tesla? Because I do, and through all the OTA updates in the five years I've owned it, it's consistently not been possible to put it in drive without pressing the brake pedal.

God no. I'm European, I don't own a car because we have public transport.
I was guessing at what article meant.

If you can't put it in drive without holding the brake, then I fully agree that the whole accusation makes no sense.

 

[Erbium68]

There was no unintended acceleration involved with European cars Like Audis during the 1980s either. After 60 minutes essentially tanked Audi sales in the United States, the NHTSA found that while the accelerator and brake were slightly closer together than in most American cars, the tearful stories were all simply people pressing the wrong pedal.

I’m much more interested in the outcome of the sensor study.

Edit: Punctuation

I guess the issue here is that the usual reason for "unintended acceleration" (or easy roll over) claims is the US industry trying to keep out or harm foreign competition, and if it is directed against a US company it is unfair.

 

[jcrummy]

I don't get what this is supposed to refer to, because on its face it's false. The car beeps at you if you're in park and pushing the accelerator (and it won't move when you do that); it beeps at you if you try to put it in park and you don't have your foot on the brake.

This exactly. I've had a Tesla for 8 years now, and at no point have I been able to put it into gear without having to first have my foot on the brake pedal. For all the legitimate complaints about how Teslas work, this is one area where they do actually ensure that you have your foot on the correct pedal before you can do anything at all.

 

[Sphex]

Are they holding the accelerator down and then pushing the Start button? Or just mashing it after the car is "started"? It seems the former should be a simple software fix to prevent forward motion until the accelerator is lifted after starting. The latter is pure driver error.

Do any EVs have these interlocks? I'd hope so. I can't think of a valid passenger vehicle use case where the accelerator being depressed prior to/during start should lead to immediate forward motion. Or at least, it's far more likely to be a user error - and a dangerous one - the risks of which should be mitigated as much as possible.

Edit: okay several responses above seem to confirm that even Tesla has both a brake interlock and an accelerator interlock. So it seems the accidents were from people starting the car and then just accidentally hitting the accelerator. Push go pedal, car goes. You can't explain that. Since both types of interlock apparently are present in Teslas, I'm now going to go read the article again to figure out just what sort of recall was being requested.

 

[Erbium68]

Can you 'start' a Tesla without holding down the brake pedal?

In my i4 for instance if you press the start button without holding down the brake pedal you turn on all the electronics, you can use the sound system etc, but you cannot actually go anywhere because it's like an ICE car where you've turned on the battery stuff but the engine is still off.

BMW requires you to hold down the brake pedal while hitting start to actually go into driving mode.

Which is so incredibly normal to me I don't even give it a second thought, and also feels like a pretty good idea. But Tesla does like to break conventions, so it wouldn't shock me to hear they ignore that concept.

Reminds me of back in the 1990s when our managing director was a manual only everything else sucks guy. The fleet manager persuaded him to try my auto Scorpio as he was trying to get an auto-only fleet.
The MD apparently erupted in fury when he couldn't get it to start because he had missed the "foot on the brake" instruction. And somehow despite my having been in my office all morning it was my fault.

 

[vought1221]

I think in the newer Tesla with Auto Shift turned on, if you press the accelerator while in park you’re confirming the auto shift choice. ie. You don’t need to press brake to get out of P.

You ever think maybe things are a -little- too convenient?

Can anyone actually confirm this is the case?

 

[numerobis]

This is what $291 million on the Trump campaign gets you.

Which one -- the finding that acting like other cars in this specific instance doesn't warrant changing anything? Or the finding that FSD needs to enter engineering analysis?

The massive bribe bought Musk plenty of advantages (or at least, brought him things he asked for even if they seemed to be largely shotgun shells aimed at his own feet), but in this story I'm not seeing it help Tesla.

 

[Aurich]

Reminds me of back in the 1990s when our managing director was a manual only everything else sucks guy. The fleet manager persuaded him to try my auto Scorpio as he was trying to get an auto-only fleet.
The MD apparently erupted in fury when he couldn't get it to start because he had missed the "foot on the brake" instruction. And somehow despite my having been in my office all morning it was my fault.

I used to drive a manual, and I'm sympathetic to the brain shift switching between 3 and 2 pedal cars requires. I remember once stabbing for a non-existent clutch in my wife's automatic in a mild panic thinking I was about to stall the engine as I came to a stop. Muscle memory can be like that.

My i4 doesn't do true one pedal driving. I have the regen cranked to max, and I rather like how it works. I can do probably 90% one pedal driving, I have a nice degree of easy control over the car, but if I want to come to a full stop or stop quickly I still use the brake pedal.

To me that feels right. Hard to say if it's just because I'm used to using the brake still or not. But I think rationally it's nice to have "control over speed" and "need to stop now, or stay stopped" in two different places.

I do have an auto hold brake option for staying stopped actually, but I've never cared for how that feels.

 

[rm0659]

Can you 'start' a Tesla without holding down the brake pedal?

In my i4 for instance if you press the start button without holding down the brake pedal you turn on all the electronics, you can use the sound system etc, but you cannot actually go anywhere because it's like an ICE car where you've turned on the battery stuff but the engine is still off.

BMW requires you to hold down the brake pedal while hitting start to actually go into driving mode.

Which is so incredibly normal to me I don't even give it a second thought, and also feels like a pretty good idea. But Tesla does like to break conventions, so it wouldn't shock me to hear they ignore that concept.

tesla requires a foot on the brake to shift into drive or reverse.
you can shift into park without a foot on the brake. even opening the driver door puts it in park.

i think teslas are always "started", but that may just be because i'm home and i have it set to not automatically lock when i'm here.

as for fsd having trouble with vision completely obscured, how well do humans do under those conditions? if radar/lidar would make a significant difference then logically you could drive with radar/lidar only and i don't know that anyone is making that claim.

 

[Aurich]

tesla requires a foot on the brake to shift into drive or reverse.
you can shift into park without a foot on the brake. even opening the driver door puts it in park.

Okay so it's pretty normal still. That's good.

We lack good language for EVs since 'starting' them just doesn't mean the same thing it does with an ICE vehicle.

 

[mattofak]

How often have you made that mistake while driving? How often have you hit the accelerator when you wanted to brake? How often have you put your car in drive in your garage rather than reverse? And if you did, did you blame the car?

There's "confuse" and then there's "confuse".

I have a relevant anecdote from my Ioniq 6. I was backing up around a corner feathering the throttle pedal like you would do in a gas car with the brake pedal to control speed. The car detected an imminent collision with a trash can in front of me (that wasn't going to happen... the I6's packing/collision detection system is trash) and did a full fledged BEEPBEEPBEEP and it automatically slammed on the brakes. Some instinct kicked in and I floored the throttle (presumably because instinct thought it was the brake because that's what pedal my foot normally would have been on.) As the car was still in it's emergency brake mode it didn't go anywhere... until 3 seconds later when it determined I was no longer at risk of hitting the trashcan, released the brake, and I accelerated backwards at full acceleration because my foot was still hard on the floor on the wrong pedal.

So... I have some sympathy with the 'one pedal driving does counterintuitive things in your brain' theory. I'd say I suffered 'mode confusion' and we have to strive to make the HMI very clear/consistent to avoid it.

I'd also say the Hyundai shouldn't automatically release the e-brake if the throttle pedal is non zero...

 

[ripfire4]

So what you’re saying is that you’ve never had an incident where you have confused one thing for another? Gosh, what’s it like to be “perfect”?

I said something similar to the judge when I ran a red light. He didn't buy it.

 

[vought1221]

OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird. I suppose if you've never driven an older vehicle and don't have the reliance on brake pedal modulation as part of the hand-eye coordination loop, I can't even imagine how distracting and disconcerting that would be.

I'll have to go try it, but I don't know that I'd like the feeling around lack of control, especially since I've worked in QA for decades and Tesla's fast and loose software is a bit of a question mark.

 

[orangpelupa]

Is this, uh, a joke? The driver may press the accelerator instead of the brake, and that would be Tesla's fault?

Am I missing something here? If someone cannot be trusted to not be confused by the pedals before starting their cars, I don't see how I would trust them on the road...

MYbe it was trying to argue about human factors in design.

People are dumb.

The argument, maybe, that The design should be more dumb proof.

Maybe like the confusing door handle designs whether it's to push or pull? There are non confusing designs, but some doors still use the confusing design.