Self Driving Car thread

[MilleniX]

I was reading a reddit post or something where someone said the old Uber ATG systems were a pile of nvidia gtx 1080s in the trunk.
From what I understand today, the lidar is cheap and easy enough, and now the processing and computing hardware is also commodified enough (between nvidia and tesla and whoever) so now the secret sauce is all in the software. Who has the best lidar -> driving software stack?

I'd offer my bets (you can guess from earlier posts in this thread), but I think the answer to that is largely going to be both subjective and based on very sparse information about proprietary implementation details. The only data we're really going to see as the general public is more-or-less on-the-road performance metrics, like collisions, close calls, misbehaviors, hard braking incidents, etc -- what's obligatorily being reported to NHTSA, state licensing agencies, and overseas counterparts

If @demultiplexer gets his wish, maybe we'll see data about performance in various standardized testing scenarios, too. I'm skeptical that'll ever happen, because the companies involved each see advantage to improving on-the-road performance from keeping their narrower functional testing methodology and data proprietary. If the on-the-road performance is good enough, regulators would be hard-pressed to justify a demand for that data anyway. IIRC, Waymo and Mercedes have each published some details in this vein, though.

 

[sryan2k1]

The Only 'Eyes-Off' Driving System For Personal Cars In America Is Dead

 

[wco81]

The Only 'Eyes-Off' Driving System For Personal Cars In America Is Dead

$2500 a year subscription.

They really tried to make it work, probably.

But the article says they're pausing the rollout so they haven't given up?

 

[MilleniX]

That kind of subscription price seems like they wanted to cover their operating costs with a small user-base from day 1. That feels like the kind of (mistaken) choice that would never be made by a tech company that wanted to drive adoption and scale the business. Can Mercedes and its investors really not stomach any sort of speculative investment in growing the business?

 

[sryan2k1]

$2500 a year to their target audience would be like $250a year for a normal person.

 

[MilleniX]

$2500 a year to their target audience would be like $250a year for a normal person.

If their Level 3 product had been available at a more reasonable price (models offered, and subscription), I would have pretty eagerly considered it just to take the strain out of driving in SoCal traffic back and forth between SD and LA, even if we were only taking that trip once or twice a month. It would be a big upgrade from the dumb L2 adaptive cruise control I've got now with Subaru EyeSight. I would not consider a hands-on/eyes-on upgrade to lane-following to be nearly as worthwhile a step.

 

[Scandinavian Film]

That kind of subscription price seems like they wanted to cover their operating costs with a small user-base from day 1. That feels like the kind of (mistaken) choice that would never be made by a tech company that wanted to drive adoption and scale the business. Can Mercedes and its investors really not stomach any sort of speculative investment in growing the business?

I took the annual fee as mostly going towards the liability Mercedes was taking on, to cover the cost of any accidents caused by the car when the L3 assist was active.

 

[demultiplexer]

Yeah, just the liability insurance will be way more than $2500/year. This is already highly subsidized.

 

[wco81]

Yeah, just the liability insurance will be way more than $2500/year. This is already highly subsidized.

Do they assume liability? Or you have to click through terms where they disclaim any liability, buyer beware?

Any kind of accident leading to litigation with potentially a very high award gives them incentive to spend a lot to defend themselves.

 

[demultiplexer]

Good point, in the US there is actually some precedent for liability not being mandatory on the manufacturer.

This is one of the biiiig reasons self-driving cars aren't in Europe. You can't get away with that here, almost anywhere on the continent (not just in the EU).

 

[sryan2k1]

Do they assume liability? Or you have to click through terms where they disclaim any liability, buyer beware?

Any kind of accident leading to litigation with potentially a very high award gives them incentive to spend a lot to defend themselves.

They assumed liability which is why it only worked in a very few select areas.

 

[MilleniX]

And very limited conditions, too - under 45 mph, with leading traffic IIRC.

 

[w00key]

Well hello, self driving car minibus!

https://www.belganewsagency.eu/passengers-to-start-riding-de-lijns-self-driving-buses-in-leuven

On public roads, through the city. That's a first around here, I think.

Here we are still waiting for line 500 / Parkshuttle to get off its dedicated lane to drive through a few quiet roads shared with other traffic.


This is the exact self driving tech that would be useful for everyone. Now make it a shared taxi / UberPool replacement and we have proper point to point (ish, with detours) transit for an affordable price.

 

[wco81]

Tesla is going all-subscriptions now but will remove autopilot. So no more lane keeping if you want on a Model 3 or Model Y, you will have to pay $100 a month.

Of course the subscription model lets more people try FSD instead of paying a one-time high 4-figure fee. But monthly subscription fees can easily be raised in the future.

With declining sales and revenues, this change may be a desperate move to boost revenues.

Tesla has officially removed Basic Autopilot as a standard feature for new Model 3 and Model Y orders in North America, effective immediately. The move forces buyers to subscribe to the $99/month Full Self-Driving (Supervised) package to access lane-keeping capabilities that were previously free.

It appears to be a somewhat desperate move amid demand and profit headwinds.

What is changing for new Tesla buyers?

For nearly seven years, Tesla included “Basic Autopilot” on every vehicle. This suite consisted of two main features:

Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (TACC): Matches the speed of the car in front of you.
Autosteer: Keeps the vehicle centered in the lane.

Under the new 2026 pricing structure, Autosteer has been removed. New vehicles will now only ship with Traffic-Aware Cruise Control. Buyers who want the vehicle to steer itself on highways must now pay for the software that was once standard.

This pricing adjustment comes just weeks after Tesla announced it will stop selling FSD as a one-time purchase in February, pivoting entirely to a subscription-only model.

By removing the free tier of Autopilot, Tesla creates a “gap” in functionality that nudges users toward the $99/month FSD subscription. While Elon Musk has hinted that FSD pricing could increase as the software improves, the current strategy seems focused on volume, increasing the “take rate” of subscriptions which we reported has been quite low.

 

[demultiplexer]

Oh wow, $100/mo for ACC and LKAS is a new kind of ultimate terrible value in car land. These days the totality of hardware required to implement those features isn't even $300.

(yeah I get that you also get FSD with that, but not a lot of people are asking for that, nor want to use it even if it were free)

 

[Chanur64]

The hardware to compute that is already in the base vehicle regardless, so it's not even a cost-add.

I think Elon's just guaranteed the decline of Tesla, but I guess we will see. There are far better EV brands for people that have the money to be able to afford expensive subscriptions, Tesla made a name for itself in large part as being the most affordable EV brand without compromising too many corners and this will pretty much kill that.

 

[Maxxim]

Telsa squandered its lead many years ago, everyone else has caught up to where they actually are - not where they say they are.

I am a fan of ACC, but LKAS and even lane keeping warnings as vibes / light steering can not die fast enough for me.

The system on my ID3 is just horrible - in snow and heavy rain it is actively dangerous.

The version on my Defender is less intrusive, but on country lanes it is easy to get endless warnings just driving normally.

Out of habit I turn it off every single time I get in my car.

Self driving probably has a place, self driving taxis that take you from A to B are fine - I have ridden in many Waymo's but self driving my own car - that's a nope - for the very tiny anmoputn of times a year I would use it the added cost and complexity would buy hundred of taxi rides for us.

 

[wco81]

A union of gig workers representing Uber and Lyft drives has complained that driverless Waymo cars are taking unaccompanied minors on rides.

A labor group representing Uber and Lyft drivers has filed a complaint with state regulators, alleging that Waymo is violating its permit by allowing unaccompanied minors to ride in its autonomous vehicles in the Bay Area.

The California Gig Workers Union submitted the complaint to the California Public Utilities Commission on Tuesday, claiming the practice breaks state rules.

"They should follow the same rule that we follow!" said Uber and Lyft driver Hector Castellanos, who supports the union's action.

MORE: Waymo now approved to take passengers to and from SFO

"I'm a driver, if I get a minor in my car, I can be deactivated, or if we have an accident with a minor, it can be a huge, huge problem. So, I believe Waymo have to follow the same rules that we have," Castellanos said.

Waymo's website states that minors must be accompanied by an adult. Uber and Lyft operate teen ride programs in some states, and Uber's website says the program is available in parts of Los Angeles, but Castellanos said it is not currently offered in the Bay Area.

Some San Francisco parents said they would trust Waymo over human drivers if regulators allow unsupervised teen riders.


"You can't trust anyone nowadays, you know. There's so many stories that you hear about what happened to people in Ubers and all that, so I'd rather a Waymo any day," said Arienne Barrow.

At Washington Square Park, no parents interviewed supported letting their children ride alone in an Uber or Lyft.

"If I had a choice between a random Uber driver and AI, a driverless vehicle, at this moment I'd say AI all day. Waymo, unless the Ubers are run by women. If there was an only-woman app that had women who are verified as a child specialist, I would allow them to take my child," said Mark Daniel.

https://abc7news.com/post/union-bac...mplaint-waymo-involving-teen-riders/18727861/

 

[RagingWarGod]

A union of gig workers representing Uber and Lyft drives has complained that driverless Waymo cars are taking unaccompanied minors on rides.




https://abc7news.com/post/union-bac...mplaint-waymo-involving-teen-riders/18727861/

I'd say let the dystopia begin but we're already there.

 

[UserJoe]

The hardware to compute that is already in the base vehicle regardless, so it's not even a cost-add.

I think Elon's just guaranteed the decline of Tesla, but I guess we will see. There are far better EV brands for people that have the money to be able to afford expensive subscriptions, Tesla made a name for itself in large part as being the most affordable EV brand without compromising too many corners and this will pretty much kill that.

Musk's insistence on a camera vision only system guaranteed that a long time ago.

 

[Chanur64]

Pretty much, yes. Which made it's uptake and approval for self-driving all the more bizarre.

Another thing people never think about is how degraded cameras get over time... anyone that browses the various dashcam reddits has already seen a lot of badly discolored or distorted camera footage from Tesla vehicles. Next time you end up watching some Tesla footage keep in mind Autopilot is using those very same degraded camera feeds as the input for its driving algorithm.

 

[MilleniX]

Pretty much, yes. Which made it's uptake and approval for self-driving all the more bizarre.

Another thing people never think about is how degraded cameras get over time... anyone that browses the various dashcam reddits has already seen a lot of badly discolored or distorted camera footage from Tesla vehicles. Next time you end up watching some Tesla footage keep in mind Autopilot is using those very same degraded camera feeds as the input for its driving algorithm.

If Tesla were engineering the FSD/Autopilot system responsibly, they would have an in-depth characterization of how the cameras get degraded, and testing to show that the driving behavior is invariant to that degradation to the extent it can be, and safely locks out when it gets too bad.

 

[wco81]

How are the cameras getting degraded? Sensors degrading from heat and age?

Or cheap plastic optics fogging up like the plastic which covers headlight assemblies?

 

[Chanur64]

I think it's a huge range of factors, no single universal cause but again I won't pretend to have studied the problem. What I do know is Reddit is full of Tesla footage, owners love posting multiple angles of other idiots on the road. And based on reporting Tesla's use the same cameras as its 360 coverage driving sensors. Some video is surprisingly dark/dim. Some have tonal issues or even sepia tinged discoloration. Many seem to develop sharpness/clarity issues over time, my assumption would be abrasive damage to the plastic cover or a layer of dirt.. When the camera degrades to some unknown point the computer will throw a fault out about it, but that seems to wait pretty far along the degradation curve.

When people post Tesla footage even the default video from new vehicles is worse quality than the average dashcam. Maybe that shouldn't be surprising to me, but on the other hand given these cameras are used to control an autonomous vehicle at interstate speeds I think people should be much more aware of how well these various things work & degrade. Tesla's continue to every so often go splat into things here in Texas, whether it's a semi or a concrete divider. When owners post some of the really degraded videos nobody points out to them that's the same image their vehicle is using to base navigational decisions on.

 

[demultiplexer]

How are the cameras getting degraded? Sensors degrading from heat and age?

Or cheap plastic optics fogging up like the plastic which covers headlight assemblies?

Yeah, optics in direct sunlight and in weather are going to degrade, both temporarily through debris and water obstruction and permanently through fogging, abrasion, live growth, UV degradation and optical sensor damage. All of which are documented and pretty severe over the course of the lifetime of a car and an important reason why externally mounted cameras have been such a slow development. It's no coincidence that when the model 3 refresh came out, it boasted cameras with a resolution you weren't able to buy in a store for more than 10 years - the sensors are old and special.

 

[w00key]

the sensors are old and special.

What. I expected them to go SOTA and pixel binning to make it easier for themselves. Lol, I guess not.

 

[demultiplexer]

What. I expected them to go SOTA and pixel binning to make it easier for themselves. Lol, I guess not.

People often criticize Tesla for using 720p sensors (and worse!) but from an engineering perspective it makes sense. Larger pixels have better dynamic range, are less susceptible to single pixel damage due to high energy particles and the fouling of the entire optical stack (not to mention motion blurring) limits realistically achievable resolution so much anyway that it's not valuable to get higher resolution.

There is value to going SOTA with optical sensors, but then you also need to do a lot of upgrades ot the rest. Famously Xiaomi has amazing sensors for their self-driving features (8MP front facing large sensors), but you can look at the car... that's some THICC optics, strategically placed in a spot that automatically gets good cleaning action from both wind and spray.

 

[redleader]

How are the cameras getting degraded? Sensors degrading from heat and age?

Or cheap plastic optics fogging up like the plastic which covers headlight assemblies?

Typically high reliability lenses for outdoor applications are made from glass specifically because plastic tends to degrade under UV, deform due to temperature cycling and/or absorb water over long periods of time in the elements. Plastic lenses can actually be very high performance (since you can injection mold things that are impractical to grind out of glass), but they're not as durable. I don't know what Tesla uses, but given that they're more cost sensensitive, I wouldn't be surprised if they went with injection molded plastic and it slowly degrades from UV or water.