“Robotaxi” and “Cybercab” are too unoriginal to trademark, USPTO tells Tesla

According to CEO Elon Musk, Tesla's future rests on the two-seat driverless pod.

See full article...

 

[jeremyp66]

Soooo… here’s the piece I don’t get. If Elon had gone all in on LIDAR in the beginning with the same approach he brought to batteries - iterative improvement, own the manufacturing process, make building the things super efficient - he’d have relatively inexpensive LIDAR that he could make a selling point in all his vehicles. That would substantially improve FSD for an investment that’s a drop in the bucket relative to Tesla’s valuation. His intransigence on LIDAR is just baffling.

Lol. You still seem to think that Musk has got some magic process to make everything better that nobody else has. He hasn't. Remember the Model 3 production line fiasco where he thought he knew better but had to get actual production line engineers in to make it work? Remember The Boring Company's revolutionary boring machines that would be able to go so much faster than everybody else's? No? Neither do I, because it was all Muk lies.

Even the batteries are manufactured by Panasonic. Tesla cars haven't gone through an iteration in some time, except the Model Y.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Lol. You still seem to think that Musk has got some magic process to make everything better that nobody else has. He hasn't. Remember the Model 3 production line fiasco where he thought he knew better but had to get actual production line engineers in to make it work? Remember The Boring Company's revolutionary boring machines that would be able to go so much faster than everybody else's? No? Neither do I, because it was all Muk lies.

Even the batteries are manufactured by Panasonic. Tesla cars haven't gone through an iteration in some time, except the Model Y.

Hey now, let's be fair. The Model 3 got new headlights ooooo.

 

[Echohead2]

Sure. But regardless, whatever the reasons he's worthless fascist asshole trying to launch an anocratic oligarchy? If he is autistic, autism is not the most salient feature of his personality or worth mentioning in criticism or praise, and if he's not, then why bring it up at all.

Oh...I'm not disputing that all! Just being pedantic.

 

[Echohead2]

You're not aware of the whole losing self-governing status, and replacing the board thing?

But didn't they offload like $6B dollars of debt in the process, and cherry pick the new board?

 

[AusPeter]

But didn't they offload like $6B dollars of debt in the process, and cherry pick the new board?

Did they have a choice?

As for the debt, they seemed quite happy carrying it.

 

[Echohead2]

Lol. You still seem to think that Musk has got some magic process to make everything better that nobody else has. He hasn't. Remember the Model 3 production line fiasco where he thought he knew better but had to get actual production line engineers in to make it work? Remember The Boring Company's revolutionary boring machines that would be able to go so much faster than everybody else's? No? Neither do I, because it was all Muk lies.

Even the batteries are manufactured by Panasonic. Tesla cars haven't gone through an iteration in some time, except the Model Y.

However...if Tesla were using Lidar in all Teslas, the huge volume would likely result in improved costs/performance/etc. So the point is kind of true no matter who was designing/building them. I mean, supposedly Waymo has greatly reduced their costs for the sensor suite and their volumes are pretty low. Presumabely it would be much further along with huge volumes.

 

[terrydactyl]

OT But last year I read a short story about a near future where there were autonomous home help robots. Except the protagonist accidentally discovered that the robots were teleoperated from Mexico. And the operators were educated people who had been deported from the US to Mexico, and were selected for the job because they were very familiar with US culture. Now I'm beginning to wonder if this story is more of a guide book than fiction.

So, this will be Musk's solution to FSD?

 

[mhalpern]

glad i don't live in Texas.

 

[terrydactyl]

I feel like the Optimus robot trademark will also hit snags during prosecution and potential opposition from Hasbro.

There are several products and brands with the name Optimus. Optimus stoves and Optimus clothing are two I can think of.

 

[Echohead2]

Did they have a choice?

As for the debt, they seemed quite happy carrying it.

Turns out it was only $1B. However, Disney still pretty much can do what they want, save $1B, and DeSantis lost huge support (and maybe the presidential nomination) for his attacking of Disney. Seems like Disney won.

 

[Uragan]

Did I mention which autistic billionaire buddy? You seem to assume I was referring to Musk! And I made no reference to Musks business practices! Gee, maybe the GOP needs to investigate the biased liberal policies of online board post?

https://www.axios.com/2022/04/15/elon-musk-aspergers-syndrome

Edit: add possible AI generated fake news link

Gee… who else could you have been talking about? After all, which of Trump’s “billionaire buddies” is currently having problems with the USPTO and is the billionaire CEO of the company referred to in the article? Are you suggesting that Trump is palling around with other autistic billionaires who just happen to have issues with the USPTO? If so, who exactly are they and what issues are they having? How did you come by this information, regarding their neurodivergence and their issues with the USPTO?

 

[huskcummerbund]

Guess what else is shit in rain/slush/snow...vision.

Well...the human eye is estimated to be over 500 megapixels, connected to pretty decent computer.

Yes, maybe cameras alone can do it...in 20 years. But today...lidar and radar are needed.

Then it should be done in 20 years when technology is at the level to do it properly and reliably. Until then it will remain an unreliable false promise of a technology that doesn't really exist. Personally, I have no interest in any self-driving tech until it finally reaches the point that it is as reliable as seatbelts and airbags. L0 or L5, everything in between is worthless to me.

 

[Echohead2]

My wife got a C&D after making a vinyl t shirt with the phrase "Country Girl" on it.

That seems like a trademark that would pretty contestable. Especially if made in different font/style.

 

[Echohead2]

Then it should be done in 20 years when technology is at the level to do it properly and reliably. Until then it will remain an unreliable false promise of a technology that doesn't really exist. Personally, I have no interest in any self-driving tech until it finally reaches the point that it is as reliable as seatbelts and airbags. L0 or L5, everything in between is worthless to me.

Then you must be fine with Waymo. Because they are Level 5 within their geofence.

Also...Works in 20 years with just cameras or works today with cameras+lidar+radar....I'll pick today.

 

[Uragan]

Also, this has already been pointed out by many people, but the Robotaxi pisses me off so much, because it's just the dumbest fucking possible take on a taxi. Look at any vehicle in wide use as a taxi, past or present, whether that's a Checker cab or a London cab or a Hindustan Motors Ambassador or a Crown Vic or a NV200 or whatever. They all have in common seating for 4-5 passengers, a large cargo area, a relatively high stance and hip point, a high-riding suspension with plenty of travel, and (at least for modern vehicles) handicap accessibility.

The Robotaxi has NONE of those things. Not one motherfucking item on that list. Not one thing that makes a taxi a good taxi made it to this clean-sheet design for a vehicle that can only be used for autonomous ride-sharing. Two couples sharing a cab down to the club? Not happening. Wheelchair? Fuck you. Parent with two children in car seats going to the airport? Tough. Old people? Fuck 'em. Four suitcases? Take a Waymo. Family trying to cross town to see the sights? Better walk.

It's so fucking stupid.

See… the non-ADA compliant vehicle plays right into the whole “racial purity” thing that Musk has surrounded himself with and embraced.

In his mind, society has no need for the disabled… therefore, why should he be willing to accommodate them?

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Then it should be done in 20 years when technology is at the level to do it properly and reliably. Until then it will remain an unreliable false promise of a technology that doesn't really exist. Personally, I have no interest in any self-driving tech until it finally reaches the point that it is as reliable as seatbelts and airbags. L0 or L5, everything in between is worthless to me.

You're against adaptive cruise control and lane centering?

 

[Martin Blank]

Oh yeah, no, we're not doing this. We have no idea whether Musk is autistic to any degree at all, and if he is, that has no relevance to his business decisions, deceptive and fraudulent business practices, or radical politics.

Musk claimed in 2021 to have Asperger's, which was dropped from the DSM-5 when it was published in 2013. The diagnosis was rolled into autism spectrum disorder. When Musk went on SNL and revealed it, there were several possibilities:

• He was diagnosed prior to 2013, or soon after before it fully replaced DSM-IV, and hid it. This is very possible. It's also possible that he knows this is now part of ASD, but holds on to the diagnosis. That happens.
• He was diagnosed later, but more than a few years later and it's into his documented drug use, which greatly complicates autism diagnoses. That he called it "Asperger's" would also suggest that, if it was a late diagnosis, he found someone who doesn't accept the DSM-5, which is itself problematic because DSM-IV was published in 1994, and a lot of strides were made in understanding mental health (especially ASD) in those ~20 years in between.
• He self-diagnosed. In my experience, this is far and away the largest block of people with "Asperger's," and these are mostly people who just want an excuse to get away with being jerks.

He clearly is somewhat socially awkward and, for better or for worse, sees things a bit differently and gets overly focused on this or that topic. That doesn't make him autistic, and it doesn't mean that he has Asperger's. Most people who are like that are not anywhere on the spectrum. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that he has ADHD (which, again, is hard to properly diagnose given drug use like cannabis and ketamine). He may well have some other condition(s). But any claim that he is on the spectrum without evidence from 10+ years ago is tainted.

 

[Echohead2]

See… the non-ADA compliant vehicle plays right into the whole “racial purity” thing that Musk has surrounded himself with and embraced.

In his mind, society has no need for the disabled… therefore, why should he be willing to accommodate them?

1) Their van would handle wheelchairs
2) Wasn't there another group of people who wanted to get rid of the disabled? I believe they expanded to other groups that they are more infamous for, but I believe disabled was first target.

 

[Uragan]

Then it should be done in 20 years when technology is at the level to do it properly and reliably. Until then it will remain an unreliable false promise of a technology that doesn't really exist. Personally, I have no interest in any self-driving tech until it finally reaches the point that it is as reliable as seatbelts and airbags. L0 or L5, everything in between is worthless to me.

I dunno. I’d say that Waymo’s L4 implementation is pretty worthwhile, sort of. (I say “sort of” because automating taxis removes the human element and I’m not sure I’m okay with that.)

L5 is most likely an impossibility since there are an “infinite” number of corner cases that would need to be solved and no rational amount of computing power is going to solve them all easily.

 

[terrydactyl]

Just call it Johnny Cab,

Spoiler: Johnny Cab

 

[Uragan]

1) Their van would handle wheelchairs
2) Wasn't there another group of people who wanted to get rid of the disabled? I believe they expanded to other groups that they are more infamous for, but I believe disabled was first target.

That’s assuming that the “RoboVan” isn’t a pipe dream and that it will be available in a given market. Additionally, it certainly didn’t look ADA-compliant when they showed it off previously.

And I’m assuming you mean “eugenists”? If you know who the group was, don’t play coy. Just say who they are. Obviously you know who the “they” are that you’re eluding to.

 

[Coriolanus]

There are several products and brands with the name Optimus. Optimus stoves and Optimus clothing are two I can think of.

The purpose of a trademark is to prevent a likelihood of confusion within customers of the source they are purchasing from. To determine likelihood of confusion, you have to take into account the goods and services involved.

A company named Optimus that only makes clothing probably can coexist with a robot named Optimus. A person buying a shirt likely wouldn't think they are buying from a robotics company. A person buying a robot wouldn't be confused into thinking they are buying from a clothing company.

With Hasbro, at least you have a company that sells toys of robots named Optimus, some of which may be actual little robots. I think there's a higher likelihood of confusion as to the source there.

 

[huskcummerbund]

Then you must be fine with Waymo. Because they are Level 5 within their geofence.

Then, by definition, it's not Level 5.

 

[DarthSlack]

See my post ranting about this above.

Having ridden in more than my fair share of cabs (sometimes in great fear for life and limb), it is my considered opinion that the London Hackney cab should be made a worldwide standard for cabs. Especially when paired with an actual London cab driver. They're spacious, hold people and luggage with ease, and are easy to get in and out of. All the stuff that Robotaxi is likely to fail.

And this is a hill I will die on.

 

[fenris_uy]

Also, this has already been pointed out by many people, but the Robotaxi pisses me off so much, because it's just the dumbest fucking possible take on a taxi. Look at any vehicle in wide use as a taxi, past or present, whether that's a Checker cab or a London cab or a Hindustan Motors Ambassador or a Crown Vic or a NV200 or whatever. They all have in common seating for 4-5 passengers, a large cargo area, a relatively high stance and hip point, a high-riding suspension with plenty of travel, and (at least for modern vehicles) handicap accessibility.

The Robotaxi has NONE of those things. Not one motherfucking item on that list. Not one thing that makes a taxi a good taxi made it to this clean-sheet design for a vehicle that can only be used for autonomous ride-sharing. Two couples sharing a cab down to the club? Not happening. Wheelchair? Fuck you. Parent with two children in car seats going to the airport? Tough. Old people? Fuck 'em. Four suitcases? Take a Waymo. Family trying to cross town to see the sights? Better walk.

It's so fucking stupid.

You have to remember that the robotaxis wasn't designed to be a taxi, it was designed to be their $20.000 vehicle to sell to the public.

 

[huskcummerbund]

I dunno. I’d say that Waymo’s L4 implementation is pretty worthwhile, sort of. (I say “sort of” because automating taxis removes the human element and I’m not sure I’m okay with that.)

L5 is most likely an impossibility since there are an “infinite” number of corner cases that would need to be solved and no rational amount of computing power is going to solve them all easily.

I'd rather just use a cab or Uber instead of L4. At least then I have somebody in the cabin to berate when they drive like a moron and I'm far less likely to have to get out and walk when it can't figure out what to do about the automated taxi's arch nemesis: a road cone.

 

[DarthSlack]

Musk claimed in 2021 to have Asperger's, which was dropped from the DSM-5 when it was published in 2013. The diagnosis was rolled into autism spectrum disorder. When Musk went on SNL and revealed it, there were several possibilities:

• He was diagnosed prior to 2013, or soon after before it fully replaced DSM-IV, and hid it. This is very possible. It's also possible that he knows this is now part of ASD, but holds on to the diagnosis. That happens.
• He was diagnosed later, but more than a few years later and it's into his documented drug use, which greatly complicates autism diagnoses. That he called it "Asperger's" would also suggest that, if it was a late diagnosis, he found someone who doesn't accept the DSM-5, which is itself problematic because DSM-IV was published in 1994, and a lot of strides were made in understanding mental health (especially ASD) in those ~20 years in between.
• He self-diagnosed. In my experience, this is far and away the largest block of people with "Asperger's," and these are mostly people who just want an excuse to get away with being jerks.

He clearly is somewhat socially awkward and, for better or for worse, sees things a bit differently and gets overly focused on this or that topic. That doesn't make him autistic, and it doesn't mean that he has Asperger's. Most people who are like that are not anywhere on the spectrum. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that he has ADHD (which, again, is hard to properly diagnose given drug use like cannabis and ketamine). He may well have some other condition(s). But any claim that he is on the spectrum without evidence from 10+ years ago is tainted.

Musk's claim to Aspergers is rooted in 4chan culture and nothing else. The troglodytes that inhabited 4chan thought that claiming to be somewhere on the spectrum was a license to be a complete asswipe of a human being, and Musk was just picking up what 4 chan was laying down.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

I've never driven a system that actually worked reliably so, at least in any vehicle I am personally driving, yes, I'm against it. I have higher standards for driver assistance systems than most people seem to have. What you like to have on your vehicles is cool for you, but honestly I hate both of those "features". I'd rather have basic cruise control classic and I'm actually paying attention so I have no need for LKA.

Having had everything from absolutely nothing except power steering all the way to BlueCruise, I can say at least adaptive cruise control is the sweet spot. So many people can't or won't maintain a fucking speed on the interstate. And given how bad some people are at staying in their lane, I wish at least everyone else had lane assist (and received a violent and painful shock every time they changed lanes without indicating).

I've never owned a vehicle with adaptive cruise that didn't work reliably. It's pretty simple. You set a speed and a follow dostance and it goes that speed or slower to maintain that distance. I'm sure some vision-only systems suck dogshit, but I think that's only Tesla and Subaru.

E: I think Subaru might still use radar in combination with stereo vision? But it still gives up when looking into the Sun, so maybe that should be vision-dependent.

 

[rocket_llama]

That seems like a trademark that would pretty contestable. Especially if made in different font/style.

You'd think not only is that an insane mark to hold, but "The mark consists of standard characters without claim to any particular font style, size, or color" for "Retail store services, mail order catalog services and on-line retail store services featuring clothing, [ personal care products, ] home products, fragrance products, [ jewelry, watches, leather goods, backpacks, ] bags, [ wallets ] and other accessories and gift items"

https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=...TION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch

and

https://countrygirlstore.com/pages/legal-country-girl®-country-boy®-country-baby®-trademarks

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Except that both of those notions are false. Humans have a very good ability of filtering out rain, snow, and water droplets on the windshield that haven't been wiped off yet without needing the extensive post-processing that digital systems require to do the same (and the extra time it takes to do so). The people that don't believe that are probably the same people that set their wipers to "turbo-prop" mode in a light drizzle, which I absolutely don't understand. And more sensors don't mean the vehicle "sees" better. It only sees more, not necessarily better. Radar only tells the vehicle that something is about some short distance away from the sensor... and that's it. Lidar is basically just a higher-definition radar the way it is being used here. It only provides a grey-scale depth map of the surroundings, but doesn't do shit to identify what the objects it finds actually are. It's the cameras that give the CPU the data it uses to understand the surroundings, while the other two only serve to identify obstacles the cameras missed. Imagine trying to operate a vehicle with just the raw radar and lidar data but not the camera feeds and you'd see just how worthless they really are. It also doesn't help that all of these different data-sources come from multiple different points around the vehicle, which requires even more processing to make sense of. The fact that these systems work at all is amazing, but they are very quickly reaching the limits of their physical abilities, and those limits are on this side of L5. Until camera tech and processing efficiency reach parity with human wet-ware we are not going to see L5 without an asterisk next to it.

I don't totally agree with you, but I'm with you on the windshield wiper thing. I rarely use my wipers at all. But I keep my car clean and treat my windows so they bead water instead of wet with a film of water, dirt, and grime. I hate being in other people's cars where they turn the wipers on and it goes from some water spots that slightly obscure your vision to a smear of what can only be described as Vaseline that you absolutely cannot see shit through.

Maybe that explains why some people freak out if they have to drive in the rain. I'd also hate driving in the rain if it meant I couldn't fucking see anything.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Except that both lidar and radar are both weak crutches meant to hold up a system that should work with cameras only (one of the very few things that I agree with Musk about) but absolutely can't because the state of camera technology and processing that data are so damn inferior to human eyes and brains that they are next to worthless in comparison. If the system is ever going to be a true L5 then, by definition, it cannot rely on lidar because lidar is shit in the rain, slush, and snow.

This is one of the most wrong-headed things I've read in the comments for a while, and that's saying something.

Please explain to the class why Waymo's multiple independent overlapping sensor modalities are a less good idea than 14 open NHTSA ODI investigations and counting Tesla's monocular cameras only approach.

Feel free to reference the growing number of fatal FSD incidents and the complete lack of any Waymo fatalities in your answer for extra credit.

Here's the thing: cameras are shit in the rain and the snow and when it's not daytime. That's why anyone who isn't a moron trying to scam people into paying $15k knows that you need lidar and radar and cameras and ultrasonics.

 

[huskcummerbund]

Having had everything from absolutely nothing except power steering all the way to BlueCruise, I can say at least adaptive cruise control is the sweet spot. So many people can't or won't maintain a fucking speed on the interstate. And given how bad some people are at staying in their lane, I wish at least everyone else had lane assist (and received a violent and painful shock every time they changed lanes without indicating).

I've never owned a vehicle with adaptive cruise that didn't work reliably. It's pretty simple. You set a speed and a follow dostance and it goes that speed or slower to maintain that distance. I'm sure some vision-only systems suck dogshit, but I think that's only Tesla and Subaru.

Lol, haven't used BlueCruise yet (probably never will) but I can say for certain the "advanced" (my ass) cruise control in my 2020 Tacoma was absolute garbage anywhere but backcountry highways. Any time a masshole would change lanes in front of me, even when they somehow managed to do it without cutting me off while flipping the bird, the truck would stab the brakes because something had cut into the following distance. The worst part was that there was no way to change the default cruise control setting, only the following distance. If you wanted regular cruise control you have to override it every single fucking time you jump in the truck. It was bad enough that I dug into the wiring diagrams and figured out how I could use an arduino to automatically override it by splicing it into the steering column wiring harness. It really was that bad. But I sold the truck when I moved to Hawai'i and replaced it with a Honda CB500X that has none of that shit.

The other thing I hate about adaptive cruise control is that when I set cruise, I set the speed I want to go. I don't want the vehicle to slow down for any reason unless I say it should do so. I'll manage the following distance, by either taking over manual control of the throttle or modulating the set speed. I don't want the vehicle to slow down when I'm already preparing to overtake. Basic cruise works better for the way I like to drive. While I do agree that not staying in a lane or changing lanes without signaling should be painful, I don't believe LKA should be used as a way to address that issue. It just makes people less likely to pay attention. Smarter cars produce dumber drivers.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

What's happening with their solar roof? That sounded like a good idea, but like most of Musk's things, failed to live up to the hype.

It was a scam, like the battery swapping stuff. Or a coast-to-coast Autopilot drive in 201never.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

ol, haven't used BlueCruise yet (probably never will) but I can say for certain the "advanced" (my ass) cruise control in my 2020 Tacoma was absolute garbage anywhere but backcountry highways. Any time a masshole would change lanes in front of me, even when they somehow managed to do it without cutting me off while flipping the bird, the truck would stab the brakes because something had cut into the following distance. The worst part was that there was no way to change the default cruise control setting, only the following distance. If you wanted regular cruise control you have to override it every single fucking time you jump in the truck. It was bad enough that I dug into the wiring diagrams and figured out how I could use an arduino to automatically override it by splicing it into the steering column wiring harness. It really was that bad. But I sold the truck when I moved to Hawai'i and replaced it with a Honda CB500X that has none of that shit.

That's Toyota's fault for speccing a forward-looking radar with too narrow a viewing angle. It's dumb to tar and feather the entire idea of cruise control just because of one bad implementation.

 

[huskcummerbund]

I don't totally agree with you, but I'm with you on the windshield wiper thing. I rarely use my wipers at all. But I keep my car clean and treat my windows so they bead water instead of wet with a film of water, dirt, and grime. I hate being in other people's cars where they turn the wipers on and it goes from some water spots that slightly obscure your vision to a smear of what can only be described as Vaseline that you absolutely cannot see shit through.

Maybe that explains why some people freak out if they have to drive in the rain. I'd also hate driving in the rain if it meant I couldn't fucking see anything.

Lol, same. It's amazing what occasionally washing your car can do for visibility in the rain. Then again, I spent the last almost 3 years riding a motorcycle instead of driving and found that the brain is exceptionally good at ignoring droplets on a visor. Unless you constantly turn your head left and right a little bit while riding in the rain, the wind doesn't move the water in the center-third of the visor. So either you turn your head, or you just filter it out. Or... you freak the fuck out, panic, and refuse to ride in the rain anymore like so many fair-weather riders.

 

[AusPeter]

Turns out it was only $1B. However, Disney still pretty much can do what they want, save $1B, and DeSantis lost huge support (and maybe the presidential nomination) for his attacking of Disney. Seems like Disney won.

Let me introduce you to what seems to be a new term for you: Pyrrhic victory

 

[huskcummerbund]

That's Toyota's fault for speccing a forward-looking radar with too narrow a viewing angle. It's dumb to tar and feather the entire idea of cruise control just because of one bad implementation.

It's not the only one I've used. Just the only one I've owned. I've had several other systems in rentals. Currently, I'm driving a Mazda CX90 for the next month and, while it doesn't piss me off nearly as much as the Taco's, I'd still rather have basic cruise. Only picked it up two days ago, so I still need to dig into the settings further to figure if I can permanently switch the "adaptive" part off.