Trump team puts EV tax credit on the block, Tesla is on board: Report

Elon Musk is on record as saying it would hurt competitors more than Tesla.

See full article...

 

[julesverne]

I'd also like to point out that EVERY SINGLE FEDERAL EMPLOYEE is only about 15% of the budget. So if they start talking about eliminating people instead of programs, you know they're full of shit with those percentages and dollar amounts.

The 15% isn't just civilian bureaucrats. Those 960 billion include the entire Pentagon. And all armed services members. The entire military. So much for 2 trillion saved by clearing out the "deep state". Bullshit from bullshitters news at 11.

 

[Disco Funk Refugee]

Trump looks to be a monstern, and may continue the genocide, but it remains to be seen.

Ridiculous. "Looks" to be a monster? "Remains to be seen"? Given his past behavior, you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt? That is ridiculous. Trump's telling all the world exactly who he is. If you think there's even a slight chance he might be better for Gaza's plight, I suggest you reconsider. AT BEST, Trump will be no better than Biden for them. If you agree with that, then you should have thrown that out as as condition for your vote, even if Gaza is very important to you, because holding out hope that somehow, somehow Trump will somehow be an improvement for Gazans is delusional thinking.

 

[Frodo Douchebaggins]

Yawn, here we go again, throwing around labels like it's 2016 again. You forgot the obligatory ones, like: authoritarian, populist, transphobic, narcissist, demagogue, con man, misogynist, racist and pathological liar. I suggest an acronym like LBGTQ-A. Perhaps LAMP

I hope you get everything you voted for.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

Yawn, here we go again, throwing around labels like it's 2016 again. You forgot the obligatory ones, like: authoritarian, populist, transphobic, narcissist, demagogue, con man, misogynist, racist and pathological liar. I suggest an acronym like LBGTQ-A. Perhaps LAMP

Settle in and "enjoy". Trump and gang's shenanigans and outrages will guarantee daily reiteration of such refrains, for the next 4 years. And, extremely justifiably so.

Except it'll be much worse this time, as there will be far fewer constraints and guardrails and just even remotely principled people in Trump's cabinet.

 

[DuvJones]

Yes, it did. China is strategic about its long-term investments. It knows that wind and solar - as well as electric cars - are the technologies of the future. And therefore, it seeks to capture those industries and dominate them, becoming the world's premier supplier.

Not really. China (more accurately the Chinese government) has a much more pragmatic reason for doing this, it's climate record over the last 20 years was never great but they needed a way to keep the factories running so they can continue with that economic growth... clean energy solved that problem for the most part, plus it didn't run into controlled generation like nuclear power.

To them clean energy is a means to an end, that ends is being an economic superpower. If this is the quickest way to get to that, the Chinese government will do anything to get there, no matter how damaging.

 

[Huntabzb]

I am a ranked choice voting activist, and we have ranked choice voting in CA. Ranked choice voting was on the ballot all over the country, and I hope creates some change.

The amendment didn’t pass in Oregon .

 

[mgforbes]

And of course, all the arguments against it were from.....Republicans.

 

[GCamomescro]

Most backwards fucking nation on Earth. China will be driving around in clean EVs recharged by the absolutely inane number of wind and solar installations they've been putting in for the last several years while we'll have gas jalopies spitting out toxic emissions and greenhouse gases.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure China and India were both leading nations in terms of technology and societies until Britain stepped in. With China it was opium and trade, not sure about India.

IMO, China is simply reclaiming their position, as they should.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

The amendment didn’t pass in Oregon .

California also doesn't have ranked-choice voting, contrary to what's been asserted - at least, not at the state level. And there was no constitutional initiative in this election on California's ballot to institute ranked choice voting, either. Some individual cities might have it, but that's about it. There's activism to bring it about; at best, it's still a work in progress.

 

[FSTargetDrone]

This unfortunately plays into what I saw a lot of leading up to the election. Several people I know said "I'm tired of all these government handouts to everyone else. I don't want my tax dollars to help pay for my neighbor's electric car. His tax dollars didn't help pay for my (diesel) truck!"

This is exactly what they wanted: a reduction in taxes because they've got theirs and they don't want to give it away.

And I don’t want to have to pay for the road damage due to everyone and his father driving around massive pickups and SUVs.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

And I don’t want to have to pay for the road damage due to everyone and his father driving around massive pickups and SUVs.

That isn't the best argument in your quiver, considering how much heavier a typical EV is vs. a comparably-sized ICE car.

 

[DuvJones]

Yawn, here we go again, throwing around labels like it's 2016 again. You forgot the obligatory ones, like: authoritarian, populist, transphobic, narcissist, demagogue, con man, misogynist, racist and pathological liar. I suggest an acronym like LBGTQ-A. Perhaps LAMP

You know what? No...
You don't get to parade around assuming that he isn't that when he has show this SEVERAL times at this point that he is that and more. You don't, he is every single unflattering label that people has said he is and he has made several points to prove it.

That is no longer in dispute.
Both him and Vivek Ramaswamy will spend the next four years (god I hope it's 4) tripping over themselves to appease a man more feckless than they are. I will be blunt, Elon Musk continues to spend his days as a free man, which he shouldn't. The only suit he should ever wear is an orange jumper.

On the topic of this article, this alone should spell out that Elon has little to no belief in a free market he can't control and will use EVERY SINGLE power that Trump (and the US Congress) will afford him to insure that their is no fair market. He doesn't care, Neither will Trump. I never got the point of "Giving the man his flowers" for the EV 'market' and that Tesla, and Tesla alone, should be at the head of it.

not sure about India.

It's slavery, urmmmmm... "Indentured Servitude"

 

[graylshaped]

One guess: Tesla’s value is more about investors thinking it’s “special” and not just some sort of company that needs to make a profit. Killing the credit depresses EV sales across the board, other companies react by focusing less on EVs because they still have a profitable ICE lineup, Tesla remains the market leader by a large margin and that makes it easier to keep investors believing they’re “special.”

If that's a guess, I'd say you have a good instinct. I've looked at it six ways from Sunday and don't see any other rationale than the hit to the bottom line matters more to companies whose investors expect something other than hype and promises. With an added helping of Tesla's CEO now thinking he has control of the public funds spigot.

 

[cgo_12345]

@Biceps Wading through your posts is a tedious waste of time.

 

[kostadin]

Remove gas subsidies and see what the market would say.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

Ok, serious question though, why has the budget swollen so much since, say, 2014?

It hasn't. The budget grew with the economy, more or less. What had swollen, was the budget deficit - and that is due entirely to tax cuts (mainly, for the rich) that Republican administrations since Reagan (inclusive) keep passing, in addition to significant deficit spending in Obama's first term while trying to rescue the economy from going into a full-blown Depression following the financial crash of 2008.

 

[Quisquis]

Ridiculous. "Looks" to be a monster? "Remains to be seen"? Given his past behavior, you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt? That is ridiculous. Trump's telling all the world exactly who he is. If you think there's even a slight chance he might be better for Gaza's plight, I suggest you reconsider. AT BEST, Trump will be no better than Biden for them. If you agree with that, then you should have thrown that out as as condition for your vote, even if Gaza is very important to you, because holding out hope that somehow, somehow Trump will somehow be an improvement for Gazans is delusional thinking.

This has been a really hard thing to get through to some people, and I can get why, if you're not up on politics... I have friends in Gaza who are hoping he helps. It's such a fucked situation, and holy hell is it hard to bear the news to them...

 

[sd70mac]

Musk has said enough times that he wants the subsidies/tax credits removed. Tesla is the largest automaker, and sells the most EV cars too. It stands to lose the most per se. Or not.

Anyhow, here in Ontario, Canada, we lost Provincial (State) rebate long back, and it has not stopped the EV adoption. Yes, it was slowed but by not much when you look at the market itself.

What's hurting the most I see for EV adoption are:
1) cost overall - At the price point you can get a decent EV in Ontario, it is like choosing between a premium car or an EV. Even a Hyundai Ioniq 5 costs $70K+ on the road, which on paper is a great vehicle but apparently in practice not so great with the battery - enough stories.

this was one of the reason for the Premier to remove the rebate - if you can afford to purchase a premium car then you don't really need rebate, that money can be used in other social services instead. And hopefully, the funds go somewhere useful instead of pockets.

2) insurance - goddamn this was a surprise and it was the major factor for me to consider something else - almost 2x the cost of ICE or plugins that are not considered high risk.

3) Choices - BEVs selection isn't that big that there are enough choices available for consumers to sort of check off enough "wants" boxes to justify the move, especially considering the above 2 points.

Anyhow, all this is going to achieve is slowdown the EV adoption - not great for environment.

Tesla have had margins large enough that the $7500 is just free money for them, although they may want to rush sunsetting the subsidies to hurt their competitors more before their margins shrink too much.

 

[arc-tu-rus]

I don't get this stance. It would make sense if Tesla were the dominant car manufacturer, and wanted to freeze the market the way it is. But only about 4% of US cars are Teslas right now. Increasing that number significantly requires growing the BEV market as a whole, and eliminating the $7500 tax credit seems damaging to that.

It seems you are ignoring that Musk and all other sycophants worshipping Trump will pocket multiple billions from the "cuts", "optimizations" and tailored long-last legislation that the government will introduce. The EV subsidies will be nothing but rounding error in the bigger picture.

 

[Snark218]

And in other news, The Onion just bought Infowars. This timeline is even weirder than the one with talking tentacled space visitors.

That is the funniest fucking thing I’ve seen in months. Absolutely top tier trolling. Goddamn, but I love that so much.

 

[Quisquis]

Ok, serious question though, why has the budget swollen so much since, say, 2014?

Where is all that money going? It's not going in improved services, that's for sure, I can't point to a single thing the government does better compared to 2014. So, where is all that increased spending (and deficit) going?

I heard it said the other day and it rings true, from a budgeting perspective:

The federal government is a health insurer with a private security force that dabbles in research and environmentalism.

Pay a few people to move some money from blue states to red states for roads and education, and that about covers it.

 

[llanitedave]

Space Ars commenters will be over the Moon when SpaceX becomes soon the exclusive launch and communications provider for the federal government.

And it will be even better after the collapse and fall of the Trump regime when Elon Musk is denaturalized, imprisoned, and SpaceX becomes a nationalized asset to be sold off to a deserving entity.

 

[Solidstate89]

While I agree with most of this sentiment... China isn't doing EVs to the benefit of the earth, let's put that super clear.

Neither were any of the investments from the IRA. Does it fucking matter? No. Fact is that China has produced an entire automotive industry around EVs and PHEVs and they've installed more solar and wind installations than pretty much every other nation on Earth combined.

 

[barktrees]

Me[rit]ocracy

Being a grifting piece of shit is a valuable skill that society should reward.

 

[Snark218]

Netanyahu can't attack without weapons, 70% of which have been provided by the USA. Take away the weapons and you end the genocide.

Trump will not take away the weapons and actively supports the genocide.

Congrats, you played yourself.

 

[clackerd]

I don't think it matters whether it is a Biden Administration or a Trump Administration,

After ALL THAT condescension and repeated torching of the Biden administration you come up with this trash ass nonsense. WTF is wrong with you - spend your time constructively

 

[robert e]

I don't get this stance. It would make sense if Tesla were the dominant car manufacturer, and wanted to freeze the market the way it is. But only about 4% of US cars are Teslas right now. Increasing that number significantly requires growing the BEV market as a whole, and eliminating the $7500 tax credit seems damaging to that.

Rest assured, Tesla will receive a more targeted, or even exclusive, advantage. That's how corruption and cronyism works.

 

[Longmile149]

It's slavery, urmmmmm... "Indentured Servitude"

So, not exactly what you’re talking about here, but…this is what keeps running through my head when people are talking about the economic impacts on agriculture and everything else when they start rounding up immigrants and putting them in camps.

You know what kind of slavery is still legal in the US? 100% Constitution-approved?

Prison slavery.

They’ll crash the economy…and then someone in Trump’s administration is gonna remember that they can legally start supplying slave labor to farms and meat processing plants and whatever else if only they had a giant supply of prisoners somewhere.

Gosh, they’ll think to themselves, looking at a big list of concentration camps, where could we find prisoners who can work off their debt to us?

It’ll take a while to get rolling. Maybe that’ll finally be enough to get people to wake up and go “wtf?????” …but I have my doubts. I suspect there are about 70 million Americans who aren’t gonna lose a wink of sleep over it…and a bunch of the Dems still in Congress will fret about how it’s all very irregular, but the rules say it’s okay, so we just have to let it play out for now. I mean, they won’t just shut down the government over every policy disagreement. You gotta keep that powder dry because if they use any procedural tricks to obstruct the resurrection of plantation slavery then a future Republican minority might do the same thing to obstruct a commission to study the formation of a policy team to debate the merits of possibly trying something good down the road if it doesn’t offend anyone.

I’m aware that’s not at all charitable nor an entirely accurate caricature of Democratic Party leadership…but it’s close enough, and I don’t feel real fuckin’ charitable towards them after they abdicated their responsibility to hold anyone accountable for goddamn anything the last 4 years.

Edit:
And prison slavery is very…efficient…depending on how you track the costs.

 

[CifraAutónoma]

The real competition isn't between EVs and ICE vehicles anymore. It's between efficient and inefficient EV manufacturers.

The question isn't whether to subsidize EVs, but why we're subsidizing inefficient production methods.

This isn't 2012 where the EV market had yet to mature, we're well past that point.

 

[acjca2]

Pay a few people to move some money from blue states to red states for roads and education,

If the new administration guts the federal gov/budget, who is going to subsidize the red states with job programs and subsidies?

So I guess we already know which programs won't get cut: anything that benefits red states at the expense of blue ones.

 

[MrRtd]

I don't care anymore.

Human civilization will be gone by the end of the century. Along with most human life. Another hundred or two years after that, humanity will be gone too.

Though one could argue that "humanity" was not the human race's major trait, either, since we seem to do little more than fight, exploit and kill each other.

Unless we put down psychopaths upon discovery, that won't change.

Humans never left a good legacy for the planet in the past. I don't see us changing our spots in the future.

1. Civilization isn't ending by the end of the century (well unless earth is hit by a major asteroid or something).
2. History is full of setbacks, sometimes countries regress for a very long time, but overall civilization seems to ultimately move forward.

 

[dimathiel]

without the subsidies, how quickly can companies reduce costs to get them on par with ICE vehicles?

Also how does this affect nationwide charger buildouts?

Chinese EV’s in my country are price competitive with equivalent gas guzzlers right now.

 

[Pooga]

I don't get this stance. It would make sense if Tesla were the dominant car manufacturer, and wanted to freeze the market the way it is. But only about 4% of US cars are Teslas right now. Increasing that number significantly requires growing the BEV market as a whole, and eliminating the $7500 tax credit seems damaging to that.

It makes perfect sense! In case you missed it, Elon has repeatedly doubled down on claiming that Tesla is an AI and robotics company now and not an EV company. This is just another way to sell the stock pumping narrative indicator he is totally committed to that pivot.

Musk doesn't care about Tesla. He cares about TSLA, and it's become increasingly obvious lately that the performance of TSLA is not only completely disconnected from the business fundamentals of Tesla, but is now almost entirely based on faith in Musk.

Edited because I put entirely too much entirely in that last sentence originally...

 

[velofellow]

I was thinking the same thing. So how will this work? If you get a solar installation in 2025 can you still take the tax credit? Or will it have to be installed before they repeal the law? I thought it took some time for this stuff to go into effect?

I have the same fear regarding the tax credits on the used PHEV I bought this year. In theory, legislation should be forward-looking, but I am not confident the "no backsies" clause will apply to tax breaks.

After ALL THAT condescension and repeated torching of the Biden administration you come up with this trash ass nonsense. WTF is wrong with you - spend your time constructively

I hope the people arguing with Biceps understand that the purpose of their rhetoric and position is to create a permission structure to not care once Trump is sworn in, which is why they are bringing it up now. People from that permanently unreliable sector of the coalition also were outraged about Obama's Drone War, then forgot all about it during the first Trump administration, and gave Biden zero plaudits for significantly curtailing. They are always angry about something, and unaware of the fact that you need to have A.) numbers and B.) consistency in order to be a constituency that gets stuff done. They are also usually in academic and activist echo-chambers, so they have a vastly inflated sense of how many people think like they do. They are unaware that Democrats and Labour have tried their approach before, and Messrs. McGovern and Mondale and Dukakis and Benn were all huge failures.

To the "Biden is a genocidaire" crowd (no matter that the Gaza war's status as a genocide is still unsettled and very much in dispute, and that high-intensity urban warfare and search and rescue are basically always an awful thing even when they are militarily justified), the actions of the whole war fall on him alone, They won't blame Bibi, and they won't blame Trump. By arguing that the two sides are the same, or that Trump is actually less bad than Biden for reasons that are transparent nonsense (and ignore the fact that Trump has an actual record in office - a record that helped get us to where we are now), they are creating a mental defense mechanism to not notice the things Trump does, blame them on Biden, and check back in a few years when things have settled down in their new, horrible status quo and say "at least I don't see sad pictures on the Internet, guess I was right".

Israel is a powerful country with a sophisticated military-industrial complex and nuclear weapons. They don't actually need our help - though I think the Biden administration's attempts to provide it are both a humanitarian and a political mistake, it's hard to know how much more violent Israel's response would've been had this tiny, traumatized country founded by genocide survivors not gotten an immediate reassurance from the hegemon that they would not be undefended. A nuclear first strike against Tehran? Probably not, but I can reluctantly understand the calculus the Biden administration made in providing such unequivocal support. That said, I think Democrats should take a hard look at how they treat and view Israel, a friend we have for far too long enabled instead of telling them to pull themselves together.

 

[dollyllama]

So Trump is starting his term by...raising taxes.

An important distinction: he's raising taxes on other people, but he'll be cutting his own taxes. Just like in 2017, he did zilch to fix border security, but he got his tax cut.