Trump team puts EV tax credit on the block, Tesla is on board: Report

Elon Musk is on record as saying it would hurt competitors more than Tesla.

See full article...

 

[Uragan]

Did we just read the same article?

Yes. Maybe you’ll eventually figure out what I meant exactly.

 

[Uragan]

I am not being disingenuous in the least, in fact you are the one attempting to change the facts. The Biden Administration has sent over 500 shipments of weapons to Israel since October 7, 2023 BY AIR, plus countless shipments by sea. Without that constant stream of weapons over the past year, the genocide simply would not have been possible.

So, I am not "making it sound like the Biden Administration sent [Israel] a package of arms", it is a fact that the US has sent a constant stream of weapons to Israel specifically so Israel could use those weapons in Gaza. The Biden Administration has done this as the ICC and every credible global human rights organization has told the Biden Administration was using those weapons to commit genocide. Which puts the Biden Administration in direct violation of several Federal Laws, including, but not limited to The Leahy Law.

While world affairs are complex, the case that genocide is occurring in Gaza is indisputable, the evidence is simply overwhelming. The "pressure campaigns" by the Biden Administration are completely performative and manufactured, as Biden could stop the genocide with a phone call to the Israeli Prime minister, as Ronald Reagan did when Israel started a genocide in Lebanon on August 13th, 1982.

Bibi has no reason to stop his attack on Gaza, even if the US cut off arms to Israel.

 

[Longmile149]

I am deadly serious - pun intended. The Biden Administration is violation countless Federal Laws to continue providing weapons for genocide. A genocide you deny is even happening, which makes you the non-serious one here. You deny the existence of a genocide documented by the ICC and every single credible global human rights organization, you are not a serious person.

I’m curious. I’ve seen you talk about how bad Biden is and, y’know…okay. Fine.

Question:

Do you, @Biceps, personally believe Trump’s coming administration will be better, worse, or the same for Palestinians in Gaza?

Please don’t weasel around it. I don’t care about what you think others believe and I don’t want some “well, who knows what will happen tomorrow” evasion. You’ve got a brain, you’ve thought about this a lot. You clearly have strong feelings about it. Go with your gut.

In your opinion, do you think Trump will be better, worse, or the same for Palestinians in Gaza?

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

I am not being disingenuous in the least, in fact you are the one attempting to change the facts. The Biden Administration has sent over 500 shipments of weapons to Israel since October 7, 2023 BY AIR, plus countless shipments by sea. Without that constant stream of weapons over the past year, the genocide simply would not have been possible.

So, I am not "making it sound like the Biden Administration sent [Israel] a package of arms", it is a fact that the US has sent a constant stream of weapons to Israel specifically so Israel could use those weapons in Gaza. The Biden Administration has done this as the ICC and every credible global human rights organization has told the Biden Administration was using those weapons to commit genocide. Which puts the Biden Administration in direct violation of several Federal Laws, including, but not limited to The Leahy Law.

While world affairs are complex, the case that genocide is occurring in Gaza is indisputable, the evidence is simply overwhelming. The "pressure campaigns" by the Biden Administration are completely performative and manufactured, as Biden could stop the genocide with a phone call to the Israeli Prime minister, as Ronald Reagan did when Israel started a genocide in Lebanon on August 13th, 1982.

Do not worry. Trump will double- and triple-down on whatever that odious Biden Administration did and is doing, and he won't make even pretend, purely performative gestures at Israel while doing it. You are gonna love it.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

Take away the weapons and you end the genocide.

That is something Trump will never, ever do. He will do the exact opposite.

 

[jamickey]

I am deadly serious - pun intended. The Biden Administration is violation countless Federal Laws to continue providing weapons for genocide. A genocide you deny is even happening, which makes you the non-serious one here. You deny the existence of a genocide documented by the ICC and every single credible global human rights organization, you are not a serious person.

No you are not. What you are doing is rationalizing your choice of a fantasy candidate over reality. You are doing exactly what my bourgeoisie left friends have been doing to me since the sixties. you failed, you dropped a fascist monster on us and you want me to take the blame again. Forget it. As someone else said it is way more complex than you are able to understand. No one denied genocide. The only way to really stop them from the crap in Gaza would have been to invade and occupy Israel. Wouldn't that have been fun. This time no forgiveness. Just because you can't think with any organ above your waist does not mean the rest of us have to follow along. No one voted for genocide, we voted for civilization. You voted down the rabbit hole and look surprise you voted in Trump, well don't that beat all. All you have done is guarantee genocide in Gaza, Lebanon, the west bank, Ukraine, and probably Taiwan. But don't that stand in the way your moral superiority.

 

[LosAngelesPandas]

Pretty much. Trump is a loud mouth that loves the sound of his own voice. When needed he'll come out and say some idiotic thing which will create a distraction and the rich assholes that bought his way into the white house are going to rob this cuntry blind.

It is funny when you say "This country deserves everything coming to it" the maggots seem to get angry. I wonder why.

Because they think nothing bad is coming. That's why.

 

[Uragan]

Netanyahu can't attack without weapons, 70% of which have been provided by the USA. Take away the weapons and you end the genocide.

They just don’t disappear in the aether if the shipments stop. And considering the fact that the Gazans have been decimated already… Israel can use less arms to accomplish the same end goal.

 

[Longmile149]

They just don’t disappear in the aether if the shipments stop. And considering the fact that the Gazans have been decimated already… Israel can use less arms to accomplish the same end goal.

All they really have to do is continue the blockades of aid shipments.

Israel has pulverized all the civic and medical infrastructure and are starving Gaza to death. They don’t need bombs. They just need time now, and Trump is going to give them all they could want. He’s certainly not going to try and expand or facilitate aid shipments, even if he did stop sending them weapons…which he also won’t do.

 

[DuvJones]

Tesla says that their mission is to “accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy”, but that’s clearly not their mission any more.

It's been clear for a while that this has never been the mission.
Look at the rancid discussion of thier so-called charging "standard". Elon never wanted to deal with this presky thing called a market without him (and the company he owns) in direct control of it. The sad part, most let him do that.

Look at the means in which his cult drives the discussion away from any other alternative fuel. Their is nothing that neither he, nor the cult, will accept to be competitive to EV's. Not just any EV's, thiers.

Some call this monopoly brain, but honestly, it looks worse than that. It looks like pre-war Porsche, and VW's founding.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

I won't weasel around it. Before I do: you having to ask, "Do you think the new guy's genocide is gonna be worse than the genocide we have watched live-streamed for the past 12 months" says a lot in itself.

To answer your question directly:

(1) Ask Palestinians, and they say, "It doesn't matter who you vote for, Biden, Harris, Trump, they all want us dead". That is directly from the most recent interviews with Palestinians on the ground, posted by Bisan, a young Palestinian journalist who asked precisely your question to Palestinians. If you don't know who Bisan is, you should probably view her content before Israel kills her with a drone as Israel has killed hundreds of journalists as they work to prevent reporting of their ongoing genocide.

(2) My own opinion: I don't think it matters whether it is a Biden Administration or a Trump Administration, the goal of both will be to completely clear Gaza of any Palestinians and to settle the land. That has been the goal since the beginning of the conflict, and now we are hearing Israel say explicitly that Palestinians will not be allowed to return to Gaza, ever. It has been made clear by the actions of both administrations they both will support that goal, no matter the cost in human life.

So, there is very little difference between the two administrations when it comes to this topic, with one exception - one is actively committing genocide while pretending not to and promising not to stop, and the other has promised to continue the genocide if given the chance.

So, back to my original comment - if you are going to call Trump "the most corrupt administration in history", then you are agreeing that committing genocide in contravention of US and International law is not a form of corruption, and that committing genocide is a less corrupt act than fucking with EV tax credits.

Go preach about it to Israel-loving Evangelicals. Hint: you won't find many of them here. Until they withdraw unconditional support for Israel, U.S. policy toward Israel will remain what it is. Your howling at the moon, notwithstanding.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

Would that make you happy? It sounds like it would. Or rather, it sounds more like you simply don't care about it, and you certainly resent me for making you think about it.

Correct: I don't care about it. Because, as you correctly observed, U.S. policy toward Israel would remain mostly the same no matter whose administration is in power. So, given a choice between the two major political parties - because in this country, that's all the choice I'm given - I must choose based on other considerations, namely those where the two parties significantly differ.

 

[jamesb2147]

I won't weasel around it. Before I do: you having to ask, "Do you think the new guy's genocide is gonna be worse than the genocide we have watched live-streamed for the past 12 months" says a lot in itself.

To answer your question directly:

(1) Ask Palestinians, and they say, "It doesn't matter who you vote for, Biden, Harris, Trump, they all want us dead". That is directly from the most recent interviews with Palestinians on the ground, posted by Bisan, a young Palestinian journalist who asked precisely your question to Palestinians. If you don't know who Bisan is, you should probably view her content before Israel kills her with a drone as Israel has killed hundreds of journalists as they work to prevent reporting of their ongoing genocide.

(2) My own opinion: I don't think it matters whether it is a Biden Administration or a Trump Administration, the goal of both will be to completely clear Gaza of any Palestinians and to settle the land. That has been the goal since the beginning of the conflict, and now we are hearing Israel say explicitly that Palestinians will not be allowed to return to Gaza, ever. It has been made clear by the actions of both administrations they both will support that goal, no matter the cost in human life.

So, there is very little difference between the two administrations when it comes to this topic, with one exception - one is actively committing genocide while pretending not to and promising not to stop, and the other has promised to continue the genocide if given the chance.

So, back to my original comment - if you are going to call Trump "the most corrupt administration in history", then you are agreeing that committing genocide in contravention of US and International law is not a form of corruption, and that committing genocide is a less corrupt act than fucking with EV tax credits.

I hope you are prepared to regret your current views. Whatever you convince anyone of right now is of absolutely no consequence; Trump is going to do what he's going to do come January 20.

If that results in an actual genocide because he pressures Bibi and Ben-Gvir to "end the conflict" and hands them 10x the usual munitions shipment... well, prepare yourself. I know I would absolutely fucking hate myself.

That said, Trump is nothing if not chaotic. Just as right after Oct 7 I thought there was an opening for peace through all that chaos if Bibi handled things right, Trump has a similar opportunity to upset the apple cart. He's already called Bibi's bluff once in the past, and I think there's a chance he'll do it again. I firmly believe the only political power in Israel greater than Bibi is Donald Trump, so he's probably the only person that could fuck with Bibi. (To be clear: I think Bibi is a failed leader and will be viewed that way by history. He doesn't seem to want peace, ever.)

Do I think Trump actually will upset the apple cart and create some unpredictable conditions for peace? No. But I can't rule it out, and that gives me some modicum of hope and solace in this very dark timeline.

 

[Longmile149]

I won't weasel around it. Before I do: you having to ask, "Do you think the new guy's genocide is gonna be worse than the genocide we have watched live-streamed for the past 12 months" says a lot in itself.

To answer your question directly:

Okay.

(1) Ask Palestinians, and they say, "It doesn't matter who you vote for, Biden, Harris, Trump, they all want us dead". That is directly from the most recent interviews with Palestinians on the ground, posted by Bisan, a young Palestinian journalist who asked precisely your question to Palestinians. If you don't know who Bisan is, you should probably view her content before Israel kills her with a drone as they have hundreds of journalists as they work to prevent reporting of their ongoing genocide.

Weaseling.

Please don’t weasel around it. I don’t care about what you think others believe

(2) My own opinion: I don't think it matters whether it is a Biden Administration or a Trump Administration, the goal of both will be to completely clear Gaza of any Palestinians and to settle the land. That has been the goal since the beginning of the conflict, and now we are hearing Israel say explicitly that Palestinians will not be allowed to return to Gaza, ever. It has been made clear by the actions of both administrations they both will support that goal, no matter the cost in human life.

So, there is very little difference between the two administrations when it comes to this topic, with one except - one is actively committing genocide while pretending not to and promising not to stop, and the other has promised to continue the genocide if given the chance.

This is an honest answer though, so half credit.

Well, maybe one quarter.

So, back to my original comment - if you are going to call Trump "the most corrupt administration in history", then you are agreeing that committing genocide in contravention of US and International law is not a form of corruption, and that committing genocide is a less corrupt act than fucking with EV tax credits.

The problem you’ve got is that if you say they’re both the same on this issue, then the scale balances back out and now you have to take other considerations into account and a comparison between the two starting from this “both are pro-genocide” position still points very clearly to Trump’s coming administration being more corrupt, corrosive, and dangerous overall.

That’s how comparisons work.

You discard everything that is the same, and then you compare the differences. Trump wants to deport millions into camps. Biden doesn’t. Trump wants to end public education as we know it. Biden doesn’t. Trump wants to privatize our government and enable profiteering. Biden doesn’t. Trump is appointing lunatics like Boebert, sex criminals like Gaetz, and pro-disease madmen like Kennedy to head and dismantle agencies in ways that will hurt hundreds of millions. Biden didn’t. Trump is openly selling regulatory authority to billionaires who are openly announcing that they will crash the American economy, which, unless I’m very much mistaken, will have staggering global consequences. Biden didn’t.

I’m on record saying back before Biden dropped out that his support for Israel was going to cost him badly here in SE Michigan where I live. I said then and I’ll stand by now that if a Palestinian American couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Biden after watching his administration send bombs to blow up their relatives, I can’t find it in myself to condemn them. I cannot imagine having to make that choice.

But you can get off this fucking stupid horse you’re on that Biden is somehow worse than Trump. I don’t fucking like Biden. I think he cost us the election with his hubris and unwillingness to adapt to modern political reality. There’s no honest comparison between him and Trump. None.

Biden proved to be inadequate. Trump is an actual fucking monster.

 

[Frodo Douchebaggins]

And here we go... red meat for the hate forums on Ars... So interesting, so thought provoking, such interesting discussion. Where are the ads for "blue bracelets" to create personal "safe zones"? LOL.

I hope you get everything you voted for.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

There it is - the truth. Most people here don't care about genocide, unless it affects them.

And this attitude is why Harris lost the election. Because so many people disagree with the ongoing genocide they just stayed home.

Good job.

Wrong. I don't care about it while voting, because there's nothing I can do about it via my vote. People who stayed home have done nothing to either avert or in any way slow down the ongoing genocide. If anything, they have acted to accelerate and amplify it, by staying home and letting Trump win. If they're too stupid to comprehend that simple fact of life, welp that's on them - not on me.

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

Biden is a monster, and his legacy will be genocide. Trump looks to be a monstern, and may continue the genocide, but it remains to be seen.

Holy shit... You really are that stupid and uninformed. Never mind; any further discussion with you is pointless.

 

[jamesb2147]

Biden is a monster, and his legacy will be genocide. Trump looks to be a monstern, and may continue the genocide, but it remains to be seen.

And, you see, I simply won't vote for genocide. Nor will many Americans, which is one key reason why Dem turnout was so low, and why Harris lost so resoundingly.

I voted third party, but many many many more people chose not to vote. Your entire diatribe above is really just an indictment of the two party system, and how undemocratic our "democracy" is. If the vote is between genocide and genocide? Do you support genocide or sit out?

Enough sat out.

Next time, maybe speak up instead of telling everyone to be "pragmatic".

Sounds to me like you should become a ranked choice voting activist. That would enable a 3rd popular party (or more) because votes for those candidates would no longer be "thrown away".

Seriously, if you want a more robust democracy, look into what you can do to make that happen!

 

[dobrien75]

There it is - the truth. Most people here don't care about genocide, unless it affects them.

And this attitude is why Harris lost the election. Because so many people disagree with the ongoing genocide they just stayed home.

Good job.

You missed the point.

If all things being equal that both parties were to have the same policy re: Israel, then you have to look at all of the other actual differences.

We understand you believe that Palestine policy is why Harris lost. I think the consensus will end being, it was a lot of things of which Palestine is one.

No need to be hopelessly rude to strangers online. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people here and everywhere else cares about genocide.

 

[acjca2]

The number of people who can't recognize a derail in a thread is deeply depressing.

Don't feed the troll.

 

[fe3a8b63]

They pulverized that infrastructure with American weapons provided to them in 500 shipments over12 months.

30 days ago, the Biden Administration said they would stop military aid (weapons) to Israel in 30 days, if Israel didn't allow 350 aid trucks per day into Gaza. Yesterday, after seeing only a few trucks per day enter Gaza, the Biden Administration backtracked and committed to continuing military aid to Israel with no restrictions.

So, you are correct - Israel could absolutely just cut off aid and starve everyone, they are doing that. But the Biden administration has decided that they should get weapons to help them along in their timeline.

Stop manufacturing scenarios and look at what is actually happening.

Israel manufactures and designs a lot of weapons on their own. They don't need US arms' or US involvement. Benjamin will continue regardless of anything.

 

[dobrien75]

The number of people who can't recognize a derail in a thread is deeply depressing.

Don't feed the troll.

Yeah, I should know better.

It's 7 pages in now, so the thread quality has already suffered information entropy

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

We understand you believe that Palestine policy is why Harris lost. I think the consensus will end being, it was a lot of things of which Palestine is one.

Yeah, nope. Not even close.

Surveys show the majority of the voters considered only the "economy" and "immigration" as their priorities #1 and #2.

Many are under the delusion that Trump is an economic genius, because they are easily suckered by conmen, and simply can't be bothered to either understand or remember the underlying factors driving the U.S. and the world's economic landscape over the last 8 years.

And as for immigration, that was definitely an own-goal by the Democrats and the Biden administration. I never understood - and still don't - why Biden didn't clamp down on the border much, much sooner than he finally did (when it was too late).

 

[Longmile149]

Biden is a monster, and his legacy will be genocide. Trump looks to be a monstern, and may continue the genocide, but it remains to be seen.

And, you see, I simply won't vote for genocide. Nor will many Americans, which is one key reason why Dem turnout was so low, and why Harris lost so resoundingly.

I voted third party, but many many many more people chose not to vote. Your entire diatribe above is really just an indictment of the two party system, and how undemocratic our "democracy" is. If the vote is between genocide and genocide? Do you support genocide or sit out?

Enough sat out.

Next time, maybe speak up instead of telling everyone to be "pragmatic".

Oh, bullshit. What you did was vote for other people to choose for you so you could act sanctimonious and preen about how clean your hands are. This is how a spoiled fucking child behaves.

The math is real simple.

One candidate would have a body count in the millions.

The other will have a body count in the tens of millions.

It would’ve been awesome to have a choice that resulted in no bodies at all, but that wasn’t available. As someone else pointed out, the Green Party candidate was explicitly running as a spoiler to help Trump, not that he ended up needing it.

Most of us here voted to save who we could. Have fun stroking yourself to sleep thinking about what a good job you did as the people you could’ve helped to save burn.

 

[MobiusPizza]

While I agree with most of this sentiment... China isn't doing EVs to the benefit of the earth, let's put that super clear.

I disagree. China led a lot of environmental projects where there is no obvious financial gain, like plantation of trees in Gobi desert, making it now shrink by 2,000 square kilometers per year compared to it growing by 5 times that rate 20 years ago.

It did not have to invest so heavily in solar and wind, coal is still much cheaper. Green energy generation has been breaking record every year. They are the maker of 20MW wind turbines which are largest in the world.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

There it is - the truth. Most people here don't care about genocide, unless it affects them.

And this attitude is why Harris lost the election. Because so many people disagree with the ongoing genocide they just stayed home.

Good job.

I'm sorry, who the fuck was my anti-genocide choice? Did you get a different ballot than me?

The takeaway I get from all of you bickering back and forth is both Biden (and by extension Harris) and Trump either want to turn Gaza into a parking lot or at the very least will let Israel do so.

Fine.

So there's nothing I can do about that. Literally. Every choice leads to the same outcome, according to you and others. So you're saying fuck me for making a choice based on other factors where they differ and thus could actually make a difference? Things I could actually do something about?

That's not implicit support of genocide. "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" comes to mind. You will likely never have a candidate that you agree with unconditionally on everything. People are too unique, with far too many different life experiences. Best case is you can mostly line up on things and respect the reason for your differences.

Why the fuck are you here derailing this thread? It was largely on topic up until this point and now suddenly there's a wall of this irrelevant bullshit. Piss off with that shit.

 

[Longmile149]

I'm sorry, who the fuck was my anti-genocide choice? Did you get a different ballot than me?

The takeaway I get from all of you bickering back and forth is both Biden (and by extension Harris) and Trump either want to turn Gaza into a parking lot or at the very least will let Israel do so.

Fine.

So there's nothing I can do about that. Literally. Every choice leads to the same outcome, according to you and others. So you're saying fuck me for making a choice based on other factors where they differ and thus could actually make a difference? Things I could actually do something about?

That's not implicit support of genocide. "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" comes to mind. You will likely never have a candidate that you agree with unconditionally on everything. People are too unique, with far too many different life experiences. Best case is you can mostly line up on things and respect the reason for your differences.

Guys like OP solve the trolley problem by turning their backs on the screams and then berating the people who decided which lever to pull.

 

[bb-15]

Elon is happy to undermine the entire US EV industry as long as Tesla can gain an advantage over their competitors.

Tesla says that their mission is to “accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy”, but that’s clearly not their mission any more.

I don’t think that Musk changed his mission.
I believe that Elon’s #1 mission/goal since the start of his career has been to be the richest person in the world. Whatever Elon has done in terms of economics was to get him to that goal.

For instance, transitioning the world to sustainable energy should include increasing clean mass transit such as electric powered trains. But Musk doesn’t make money selling trains.
Musk wants people to ride in his cars/trucks and not in clean mass transit.
Some believe, including me, that Musk came up with the hyperloop idea (in 2013) and later built the Las Vegas tunnels, to help kill mass transit train projects.

https://jalopnik.com/did-musk-propose-hyperloop-to-stop-california-high-spee-1849402460
https://www.newsweek.com/elon-musks...rs-afraid-getting-trapped-underground-1667164

 

[YetAnotherBoris]

It [China] did not have to invest so heavily in solar and wind, coal is still much cheaper. Green energy generation has been breaking record every year. They are the maker of 20MW wind turbines which are largest in the world.

Yes, it did. China is strategic about its long-term investments. It knows that wind and solar - as well as electric cars - are the technologies of the future. And therefore, it seeks to capture those industries and dominate them, becoming the world's premier supplier. China is playing to win - while America's "conservatives" are doing their utmost to ensure "America Last", while in a very 1984 fashion chanting "America First!"

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Guys like OP solve the trolley problem by turning their backs on the screams and then berating the people who decided which lever to pull.

Maybe this was their first election. Freshman year is hard on some people. First time out of the house, no longer shielded from the real world by their parents. Turns out the real world is a bitch.