EV fast-charging comes to condos and apartments

A battery-buffered DC charger is an alternative to a bank of shared AC chargers.

See full article...

 

[humjaba]

Freewire is a similar system that is self-contained - no separate cabinet and dispenser. There are a few of these that have popped up at gas stations around me.
https://freewiretech.com/pro-series/

 

[Honeybog]

and then we have no buffer for something else we might be doing like—for instance a car lift or that type of thing

I’m genuinely curious what this means in the context of a condo development. Do they mean a lift like for high-density street parking in Manhattan, a lift like at a garage, or some sort of elevator?

 

[Frank C.]

Well look at that. Condo, townhome and other complexes are getting smart. So it begins...

 

[mir-teiwaz]

Well look at that. Condo, townhome and other complexes are getting smart. So it begins...

It's going to take a few million years of evolution for my HOA to get smart, but I'm happy for the rest of you...

 

[ip_what]

Wait, why does a home level 2 charger cost a few hundred dollars, but a shared level 2 charger cost $7,500-$15,000?

 

[InfiniteJester]

As long as they put an absolute tyrant in charge of getting cars that are dead-parked after charging moved, this will work.

I’m told condo boards are ideal breeding grounds for tiny dictators wielding tiny powers.

 

[Scifigod]

Initial cost aside this feels like a no-brainer design as you can demand buffer the battery bank much easier than the car charging in a shared space.

Plus having more potential battery backups in disaster prone areas is never a bad thing.

 

[Fatesrider]

For many others, the parking spaces will be owned by the condo association or co-op, complicating the idea of giving each EV driver their own plug. Here, shared solutions make more sense, perhaps starting with one or two shared level 2 chargers as a pilot—often this won't even require extra work to the electrical panel. Costs are a little higher than for a home level 2 charger—between $7,500-$15,000 per charger, perhaps.

That's for the charger ALONE.

Permits, installation, maintenance, insurance and number are all going to be an issue. It will get worse going forward as EV's become more ubiquitous. The price drops on new EV's had knock-on effects on USED EV's, too, so across the board, they're less expensive.

Still more than most apartment dwellers can afford, I'd say, depending on how you define "apartment"

Out of curiosity, I investigated getting a standard charger installed at my apartment complex. The price was about $45,000 when all the shouting was done, for the first year. Insurance costs were fairly high as was improving the capacity of the power lines (which may, or may not, apply elsewhere). That was for ONE. And if you have two people vying for the same charger, you're going to have one of them complaining about how the other one is hogging the charger all the time.

So add residential strife to the list of issues with installing them in multi-residential units.

This isn't to say it won't get done. But electrifying existing multi-residential units will likely be the very last place that gets them.

 

[Myself]

So it's preferable to have to find the charging spot open, scramble your car into it, do something else for half an hour, then skedaddle out of there before the tyrant notices...

...versus just plugging in and walking away and it's charged by morning?

L1 outlets at the regular parking spaces would, as mentioned, solve 90% of needs for 90% of residents, greatly alleviating the traffic at the small number of L3 spot(s). And they're way cheaper even than L2's.

 

[humjaba]

As long as they put an absolute tyrant in charge of getting cars that are dead-parked after charging moved, this will work.

I’m told condo boards are ideal breeding grounds for tiny dictators wielding tiny powers.

Outrageous idle fees, and a sign that shows "cars not charging will be towed."
If there's one group of people more happy than HOAs to screw people over, it's tow truck companies

 

[Myself]

you can demand buffer the battery bank

Bonus points if the same company sells you a solar integration. Local self-consumption is ideally suited to these buffered chargers.

Get some "shaded carpark" solar panels going on and everyone wins.

 

[DabloonJockey]

So what are the residents at "Marina Palms Yacht Club" paying for this? HOA hike? This is a nice feel good piece but this is rich folk stuff. Regular folk apartments will not see this implemented unless someone else pays for all of it and it's ongoing support.

 

[grommit!]

As someone who lives in a condo building without any EV chargers, I'm happy to see alternative options become available.

 

[equals42]

A brand new way to add neighborly strife when people forget to move their car from the single charger spot.

 

[ArsPlebeian]

I complain a lot about the focus on homeowners and EVs, which ignores the people without a garage, so this is a welcome improvement.

Honestly, this seems like a solution that could bridge the gap while the electrical system is upgraded everywhere, not just at apartments/condos.

Though, there is the question of how much a mass deployment of battery backed chargers would compete with batteries for the actual cars...

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Wait, why does a home level 2 charger cost a few hundred dollars, but a shared level 2 charger cost $7,500-$15,000?

For the same reason enterprise hardware costs more than the stuff they advertise to mom and pop. Service contracts, and with shared chargers, you’re also paying for the backend to allow multiple users and billing etc.

 

[gregorerlich]

How long does it take the buffer to charge?

How many charges does the buffer hold?

If people can't rely on the buffer charger being available (because it's trickle-charging back up again every time they want to use it), then you still have to rely on other charging solutions.

In combination with overnight trickle-charging the cars, this makes sense. If I've been driving, battery is low, and I need to pop home anyway, sure, fast charge me. Then when I'm done the day, trickle charge overnight so I'm full in the morning.

I think a lot of the convenience proposition of an EV goes away and the range anxiety comes back if you can't charge conveniently overnight and start the day full reliably.

 

[icwhatudidthere]

So what are the residents at "Marina Palms Yacht Club" paying for this? HOA hike? This is a nice feel good piece but this is rich folk stuff. Regular folk apartments will not see this implemented unless someone else pays for all of it and it's ongoing support.

Yeah what's the cost of the install and what's the cost per kWh? My place actually has valet parking so probably what you'd consider rich folk stuff, but I shudder at the co-op fee increase.

 

[rbirling]

It would still seem both cheaper and more convenient to install a consumer L2 charger at reserved parking spots and/or garages for each unit. Personally I've given up on my condo but fortunately get free charging at work and around town.

Edit: or L1 or outlet....

 

[Tremelune]

Bit of a meh...I'd much rather have my own 120V outlet than a shared fast charger...and it seems like the costs would be comparable, depending on the number of dedicated spots.

 

[bbf]

Battery backed DC fast chargers only work as planned if there's low utilization of the charger, so it works when there are only a few vehicles that use it unless the battery is HUGE, but when plug in EV use increases even more in the next few years the complex will have a lot of frustrated users that will take several hours to charge after the battery power is depleted after the first user does a 10 to 80% charge.

It may be better for the property owners to put in a system of battery backed, load balanced, lower powered DC or L2 chargers with multiple outlets to limit peak power usage on their power limited distribution system so charge times are slower, but more consistent.

Plus efficient use of shared chargers depend on users being responsible and moving their vehicle when they're done and creating a practical queuing system, which in real life isn't something that people do well.

 

[TheFerenc]

For the same reason enterprise hardware costs more than the stuff they advertise to mom and pop. Service contracts, and with shared chargers, you’re also paying for the backend to allow multiple users and billing etc.

Not to mention duty cycle. Shared chargers can be running quite nearly all the time in high-current mode (if no one passes the 80% mark). The charger I have at home isn't designed to run full-bore all the time. It would destroy it.

Duty cycle is often non-linear in terms of marginal costs. Getting to a realistic 80-90% duty cycle on a charger passing large amounts of power can be very expensive. Just think about the heat produced — it has to be dealt with.

 

[Pooga]

I’m genuinely curious what this means in the context of a condo development. Do they mean a lift like for high-density street parking in Manhattan, a lift like at a garage, or some sort of elevator?

I imagine they mean the kind of car lift you can use to perform service that's easier to do with easy access under the car - such as oil changes, brake pad replacement, etc. I'm pretty sure there's a percentage of condo dwellers who would prefer to do their own maintenance when possible but lack the space.

 

[dmsilev]

I'm running a project to enable L2 chargers in my condo building. Early 80s building, about 70 amps of service per apartment, 2 reserved parking spots per apartment. We looked at upgrading service, but it's expensive; there's a dedicated transformer owned by the utility and then the feeds into the building, and we'd have to pay the utility to upgrade both. Then replace the meters and so on and so forth. It's a lot.

So, instead what we are doing (after consulting with the utility) is to allow 30 amp chargers, with time-of-use restrictions (overnight, basically). The headroom comes from the improvements in efficiency of just about everything over the last 40 years. Lights are now LED. Appliances draw much less power. That 70 A includes a central HVAC unit, and modern ones draw a lot less power. This allows using the existing infrastructure, and residents who want to install chargers in their spots just have to run a circuit from their meter (in the garage) to their designated spots. 30 A is plenty for overnight charging, and in the future we could revisit if more capacity is needed. It's marginal for owners that have two EVs and drive them a lot, so at some point we'll probably have to upgrade the infrastructure, but this gets us most of the way there.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

So what are the residents at "Marina Palms Yacht Club" paying for this? HOA hike? This is a nice feel good piece but this is rich folk stuff. Regular folk apartments will not see this implemented unless someone else pays for all of it and it's ongoing support.

Did you even read the article? It literally explains how this is cost effective versus installing ~10 level 2 chargers. Or are you also saying that "regular folk apartments" will only ever have one or two shared chargers to use even if they have hundreds of residents?

Frankly, this kind of comment is utterly ignorant. I live in a co-op of 518 units, the bulk of which are studios, 1 or 2 bed units in two high rises. We have a lot of elderly residents and it's far from a high-end development. And yet we're in the middle of a 10 year, 51 million capital improvement project. Does that make us rich folk stuff? Compared to that, $100k on an EV charger would be a rounding error.

You need to start adding two zeros to the price if you're trying to extrapolate costs from your single family home to a development with hundreds of units. If a board decides to spend $100,000 of that year's budget on adding EV charging infrastructure, you'd think that would be a good thing. But nah, start a class war instead.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

I imagine they mean the kind of car lift you can use to perform service that's easier to do with easy access under the car - such as oil changes, brake pad replacement, etc. I'm pretty sure there's a percentage of condo dwellers who would prefer to do their own maintenance when possible but lack the space.

Exactly.

 

[DabloonJockey]

Yeah what's the cost of the install and what's the cost per kWh? My place actually has valet parking so probably what you'd consider rich folk stuff, but I shudder at the co-op fee increase.

Rich folk as I call them will pay for the convenience so they will eat those coop fees without much complaint. How do you deal with those coop fees in a regular folk complex that has a small percentage of EVs? Where I live the HOA was trying to get a home owner to pay for the repairs to the hill behind them that started to move. The HOA says you own that property but you are not allowed to do anything to it. Didn't take long for a lawyer to see the fault in that rule and now the HOA is on the hook for those repairs. HOAs and complexes who try to add fees for this on residents that don't have EV's are going have a bad time.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

I'm running a project to enable L2 chargers in my condo building. Early 80s building, about 70 amps of service per apartment, 2 reserved parking spots per apartment. We looked at upgrading service, but it's expensive; there's a dedicated transformer owned by the utility and then the feeds into the building, and we'd have to pay the utility to upgrade both. Then replace the meters and so on and so forth. It's a lot.

So, instead what we are doing (after consulting with the utility) is to allow 30 amp chargers, with time-of-use restrictions (overnight, basically). The headroom comes from the improvements in efficiency of just about everything over the last 40 years. Lights are now LED. Appliances draw much less power. That 70 A includes a central HVAC unit, and modern ones draw a lot less power. This allows using the existing infrastructure, and residents who want to install chargers in their spots just have to run a circuit from their meter (in the garage) to their designated spots. 30 A is plenty for overnight charging, and in the future we could revisit if more capacity is needed. It's marginal for owners that have two EVs and drive them a lot, so at some point we'll probably have to upgrade the infrastructure, but this gets us most of the way there.

We got told by Pepco they wouldn't countenance even a pair of L2s until our electrical panels were replaced with something made in the 21st century.

That should be done in the next few weeks finally, so perhaps by next year the chargers the board OK'd will finally happen.

 

[ip_what]

Did you even read the article? It literally explains how this is cost effective versus installing ~10 level 2 chargers. Or are you also saying that "regular folk apartments" will only ever have one or two shared chargers to use even if they have hundreds of residents?

Frankly, this kind of comment is utterly ignorant. I live in a co-op of 518 units, the bulk of which are studios, 1 or 2 bed units in two high rises. We have a lot of elderly residents and it's far from a high-end development. And yet we're in the middle of a 10 year, 51 million capital improvement project. Does that make us rich folk stuff? Compared to that, $100k on an EV charger would be a rounding error.

You need to start adding two zeros to the price if you're trying to extrapolate costs from your single family home to a development with hundreds of units. If a board decides to spend $100,000 of that year's budget on adding EV charging infrastructure, you'd think that would be a good thing. But nah, start a class war instead.

Ok, but what if instead of spending that $100k on car chargers, we used it for pickleball courts?

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Yeah what's the cost of the install and what's the cost per kWh? My place actually has valet parking so probably what you'd consider rich folk stuff, but I shudder at the co-op fee increase.

Barriere told me residents with an EV pay $50 a month to access the six L2s, and I believe that extends to the L3 as well. And if the budget already had money allocated for 2024 to expand EV charging, then no shuddering necessary.

 

[Deleted member 764661]

So it's preferable to have to find the charging spot open, scramble your car into it, do something else for half an hour, then skedaddle out of there before the tyrant notices...

...versus just plugging in and walking away and it's charged by morning?

L1 outlets at the regular parking spaces would, as mentioned, solve 90% of needs for 90% of residents, greatly alleviating the traffic at the small number of L3 spot(s). And they're way cheaper even than L2's.

The spot is going to be right outside your house, so the solution for "do something else for half an hour" is basically "go back home and do whatever you want".

Many condos already have shared resources that need to be managed and/or scheduled (laundry rooms, meeting areas, gyms, etc.). It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch that condos (both management and residents) could work something out for these.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Ok, but what if instead of spending that $100k on car chargers, we used it for pickleball courts?

Here, we got asked if we could turn the rarely used south common room into a pickleball court. It's got floor to ceiling glass windows on 3 sides and it's single-pane glass from the 1960s so I think there may be carnage.

 

[ip_what]

Here, we got asked if we could turn the rarely used south common room into a pickleball court. It's got floor to ceiling glass windows on 3 sides and it's single-pane glass from the 1960s so I think there may be carnage.

Sounds like you do it and the problem works itself out.

 

[MobiusPizza]

Wait, why does a home level 2 charger cost a few hundred dollars, but a shared level 2 charger cost $7,500-$15,000?

The cost of labor + wiring in my house excluding the cost of the Lv 2 charger was $1500. Depending on the wiring requirement and burying the wires in a parking lot that range may be reasonable.

 

[Rauth85]

Yeah make it required, for current buildings as well, or you lose the property.

Otherwise, just noise.

 

[NomadUK]

Here, we got asked if we could turn the rarely used south common room into a pickleball court. It's got floor to ceiling glass windows on 3 sides and it's single-pane glass from the 1960s so I think there may be carnage.

But for one, brief, shining afternoon it would be phenomenal entertainment.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

But for one, brief, shining afternoon it would be phenomenal entertainment.

Especially if someone spilled olive oil on the floor ahead of time...