Elon Musk and Tesla ignored Autopilot’s fatal flaws, judge says evidence shows

Tesla may owe punitive damages to victim as key trial over Autopilot proceeds.

See full article...

 

[Deleted member 807857]

No, "more powerful" is not the (only) point. In the US, it kind of is, but that's not universal. Adding "shots of espresso" to increase the strength of the coffee is a North American thing, more or less. Espresso is added to other coffee-based drinks around the world, but usually for flavour, not as a caffeine additive.

Espresso is made fundementally differently than percolated or press coffee, so has a very different flavour profile. The roasting process results in more oils being released, the use of high pressure (9-10 bars) to rapidly extract within seconds the coffee from the beans works differently than soaking and percolating ground beans over several minutes. The oils are what give espresso crema, which is something that the normal roasting process for coffee beans doesn't produce, so you don't get crema with percolated coffee, or whatever.

You use a different type of roasting process for espresso beans, you use a different type of brewing process for the final product. This all leads to a dramatically different outcome. Not just in caffeine content, but also flavour. If you want the flavour of espresso but in the portion size of a percolated or pressed coffee, you make yourself an Americano. Americanos are sipped for a while like filter coffee, espressos are drunk more quickly typically, within a few swigs.

Interesting, and thanks for sharing that. I read the wiki that was linked, but it really didn't get into that much detail.

 

[Longmile149]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ries-strikes-as-swedish-workers-take-on-tesla
Welp

 

[Celery Man]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ries-strikes-as-swedish-workers-take-on-tesla
Welp

This is the first strike Tesla employees have ever done. Turns out Musk’s power over them is waning…

 

[numerobis]

This is the first strike Tesla employees have ever done. Turns out Musk’s power over them is waning…

It's more that Tesla is spreading into places that have labour laws. His workers in China and the US aren't likely to strike anytime soon. UAW is trying to get into the US plants.

 

[truth serum]

I don't know why they can't just let AutoPilot go. Everyone I know that chooses a Tesla car is because of its charging network, not AutoPilot.

Edit: Aw Nevermind I think I am confusing AP with FSD. Sorry, carry on

Don't apologize for the nomenclature mistake, that is a big part of the problem. It should never have been called "autopilot" in the first place. Because the word has had a very specific and long standing meaning for decades now. As in the last 65 to 70 years.

 

[Deleted member 807857]

Sooo... Getting sued by multiple groups for multiple reasons generally related to his products being cheap junk and a direct danger to society;

Getting investigated by multiple governments for the exact same reason;

And his workers are in open revolt against him...

I love how Libertarians always end up in the exact same place.

 

[hestermofet]

Sooo... Getting sued by multiple groups for multiple reasons generally related to his products being cheap junk and a direct danger to society;

Getting investigated by multiple governments for the exact same reason;

And his workers are in open revolt against him...

I love how Libertarians always end up in the exact same place.

My favourite piece of random trivia is that Ayn Rand enjoyed the twilight years of her life as "welfare queen".
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/

 

[didhestealtheraisins]

Didn't we already run this scenario with car seat belts?

It’s in the best interest of car manufacturers to keep their customers alive and seatbelts are a small price to pay to help with that.

 

[hestermofet]

It’s in the best interest of car manufacturers to keep their customers alive and seatbelts are a small price to pay to help with that.

Not sure if there is a missing sarcasm tag, but leave it the Internet to come up with an argument in favour of seat belts that relies on profit motive rather than something like, oh, I don't know, empathy, a basic sense of human decency, and saving lives.

Why is it so fucking hard for some people to do the right thing unless there is money in it for them?

 

[Deleted member 807857]

Not sure if there is a missing sarcasm tag, but leave it the Internet to come up with an argument in favour of seat belts that relies on profit motive rather than something like, oh, I don't know, empathy, a basic sense of human decency, and saving lives.

Why is it so fucking hard for some people to do the right thing unless there is money in it for them?

Because "money in it for them" is "the right thing" to them.

These are the same people that tend to think taking as much from society as possible is somehow "contributing to society".

 

[sjl]

The intellectual quality of the Cult certainly has taken a tragic dive over the last few years.

Well, in fairness, the behaviour of the Cult Leader means that those who have a tendency to think for themselves have been looking at it and saying, "Nope, I'm out."

It's been self-selecting for wilful ignorance for some time now, and that's never going to end well for the general intelligence level of the group.

 

[Pooga]

I cannot seriously believe we are still talking about “USian”.

Are there large swaths of folks outside of the US who refer to themselves as “Americans“ when people ask about their heritage? I have traveled relatively extensively, and everyone referred to me as “an American”. If the average person knows who you’re talking about, then “American” works. It communicates the thing intended. If you want to use US-ian, go for it. Anyone who gets offended over that is ridiculous as well. It’s cutesy and pretty obviously communicates what you’re talking about.

Agreed. I doubt most of us even thought of the use of USian as anything other than forum shorthand - let alone anything offensive - until one very tired (and apparently grumpy) old geek made a fuss.

Protip that I learned the hard way (probably on these forums) years ago: do not try to abbreviate it as USAsian unless you are an American of Asian decent. In my head it was just clever wordplay, but apparently it's a term actually used in some circles and can lead to confusion.

 

[Deleted member 807857]

My favourite piece of random trivia is that Ayn Rand enjoyed the twilight years of her life as "welfare queen".
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/

That was a pretty interesting read, thanks!

And it reminded me of one of the things I forgot in my previous list.

And owes a bunch of money to banks, investors, and assorted people that don't tend to settle things politely in court.

 

[gnasher729]

I will remember this the next time someone ignores my request to use my correct pronouns. You sound a lot like that type of person.

Free speech and all that. Elon Musk fully supports free speech and Merkins being called USAians.

My favourite piece of random trivia is that Ayn Rand enjoyed the twilight years of her life as "welfare queen".
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/

A Quick Look: According to her, it is acceptable to take welfare cheques if you have objected to taxation. When the less deluded ones would say either it’s ok if you are willing to pay taxes when you can, or if you need it. A true sociopath.

 

[Xyler]

If that's what they want, it's cool by me. Folks have a right to claim what ever label they want, and it's only the assholes who will tell you otherwise.

A couple of points, and I'll step away from this if that's the consensus of the group:

1) I'd be curious to know - if there's really any way to know - just how many folks living in Canada, Mexico, Cuba (etc.) would actually ever want to be called American? I could be wrong, but from what I can tell most folks that aren't US citizens wouldn't particularly want to be associated with being labeled "an American". Bad connotations, I'm guessing.

2) I might be speaking out of line for the poster making the original request, but I think they were simply asking for citizens of the US to be called "American". Maybe not in a way that would engender the best result, but It didn't seem like they were going beyond that and saying that folks from other countries couldn't claim the same label.

I appreciate your measured reply, and if you celebrate it, have a good Thanksgiving.

As a Canadian, I can chime in for you on the first spot.

I would never call myself "American". I would call myself "North American", that signifies the continent of North America, but "American" is for the people of the US. If people say "USian" or calling Canadians "American" unironically, they deserve to be ridiculed.

Hell, I can throw that back to England, or Great Britain, or whatnot. Is it the British or the English? Because saying "the English" would be weird, because England isn't the only place that is English. Australia, Canada, US, and a few others have their official languages as English...

 

[kmmatney]

As a Tesla Model Y owner (and I love it), I don't know why anyone would pay $12000 to be a beta tester, and possibly kill themselves. I put people who use Autopilot in the same category as BASE jumpers - it is sad when someone dies, but they knew it was dangerous.

 

[kmmatney]

There are good ways to test (using trained safety drivers, etc.) and bad ways to test (let the entire customer base be the beta testers). Proper testing takes a little longer, but kills fewer people.

It's not the entire customer base - it is only those willing to spend $12000 for the feature. I can only imagine how bad things would be if all owners had access to self-driving.

 

[Longmile149]

As a Tesla Model Y owner (and I love it), I don't know why anyone would pay $12000 to be a beta tester, and possibly kill themselves. I put people who use Autopilot in the same category as BASE jumpers - it is sad when someone dies, but they knew it was dangerous.

Sure, but base jumpers don’t jump onto other people.

Autopilot customers do.

 

[Bilateralrope]

But spiders are cute! And keep your house free of flies/clothes moths..

(We have a house spider living in our kitchen window recess - my wife calls it 'Charlotte'. There's been a spider there for about 10 years so, either it's had life extension treatment or it's a multi-generational habitat.. Sometimes there's a smaller one that lives at the other end of the recess but it never lasts long..)

Spiders can be cute.

But I'm talking about articles here. When spiders cross into tech news you get articles like:

https://meincmagazine.com/science/202...rpse-creates-robotic-claw-game-of-nightmares/

The Arsicle about the spiders showing they have intelligence by planning out their routes was really cool!

Ok, that one sounds like it isn't horrifying.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Regardless of any car manufacturer’s claims about self driving / assistance etc ultimately the onus is on the driver for liability. Not aware of any laws / regulations that state otherwise.

Eh hmm

https://meincmagazine.com/cars/2023/0...s-driving-system-takes-over-in-heavy-traffic/

 

[gsgrego]

Regardless of any car manufacturer’s claims about self driving / assistance etc ultimately the onus is on the driver for liability. Not aware of any laws / regulations that state otherwise.

Just, no.

If the purpose of something is to replace the human component then the manufacturer should be the one responsible. If it requires human oversight then it's a failure and shouldn't be in use.

The fact that politicians passed laws in favor of corporations or that laws haven't caught up to that doesn't make it not true.

 

[Paskis]

My revolutionary idea is on hold pending the outcome of this case. I want to market a self-aiming, self-firing hunting rifle. The owner will be required to look down the sight at all times and stop the rifle if what it thinks is a deer, isn't, and it's still the responsibility of the owner if the gun shoots a panda. So watch out for Full Self Hunting coming to a forest / outback / neighbourhood near you!

 

[nimelennar]

My revolutionary idea is on hold pending the outcome of this case. I want to market a self-aiming, self-firing hunting rifle. The owner will be required to look down the sight at all times and stop the rifle if what it thinks is a deer, isn't, and it's still the responsibility of the owner if the gun shoots a panda. So watch out for Full Self Hunting coming to a forest / outback / neighbourhood near you!

I don't think I'd want a Full Self Hunting rifle just based on the name. It sounds like it might decide to point itself towards its owner.

 

[kkeane]

Umm .. I think you mean Colombia.

Yes, the country did choose this spelling variant. Doesn't really change that the term was already occupied.

 

[SteveTheSixth]

Regardless of any car manufacturer’s claims about self driving / assistance etc ultimately the onus is on the driver for liability. Not aware of any laws / regulations that state otherwise.

You do realize this is an article about a judge saying that the lawsuit against Tesla can proceed, right?

 

[Longmile149]

I don't think I'd want a Full Self Hunting rifle just based on the name. It sounds like it might decide to point itself towards its owner.

Based on the number of self-inflicted gunshot wounds in the US, I’m pretty sure that’s to spec.

 

[kkeane]

My favourite piece of random trivia is that Ayn Rand enjoyed the twilight years of her life as "welfare queen".
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/

My favorite bit of trivia is that the "bible" that Libertarians tend to hold up is a novel, a work of fiction.

 

[Ozy]

Because there are many situations where you need to refer to a broader group of people without enumerating each one individually.

There's a reason we have a term for "Scandinavian" in addition to "Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish".

Same here: we are talking about people who have traditionally lived in northern latitudes of the North American continent. The language needs a collective term for that.


I get the point about it being offensive. But the answer isn't to eliminate that term, but to replace it with something that's non offensive.

The lasting power of this weird topic diversion is pretty amazing.

 

[SeanJW]

Resistance was futile, wasn't it.

Lots of people who work at Tesla do actually live in a bizarre bubble where they think their corporate culture isn't just pure evil and nasty. They take a certain masochistic pride in it. Go figure. But the people who do real work where it intersects physics and chemistry tend to be a bit more practical and try and make things work - but they're up against that culture.

 

[Uragan]

Because there are many situations where you need to refer to a broader group of people without enumerating each one individually.

There's a reason we have a term for "Scandinavian" in addition to "Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish".

Same here: we are talking about people who have traditionally lived in northern latitudes of the North American continent. The language needs a collective term for that.

Why? Why does the language need a collective term for those peoples? An exonym that doesn't properly describe the collective is just replacing one shit term for another. That also assumes that those groups want to be or should be grouped together.

I get the point about it being offensive. But the answer isn't to eliminate that term, but to replace it with something that's non offensive.

Isn't replacing the term getting rid of it, i.e., eliminating it?

 

[SeanJW]

But spiders are cute! And keep your house free of flies/clothes moths..

(We have a house spider living in our kitchen window recess - my wife calls it 'Charlotte'. There's been a spider there for about 10 years so, either it's had life extension treatment or it's a multi-generational habitat.. Sometimes there's a smaller one that lives at the other end of the recess but it never lasts long..)

I'm an Australian. Our "house spiders" aren't cute. They're as big as your hand, and don't build webs to trap prey, they run it down. They also occasionally fall on you. They're relatively harmless, but that doesn't make them cute.

 

[SeanJW]

It's not the entire customer base - it is only those willing to spend $12000 for the feature. I can only imagine how bad things would be if all owners had access to self-driving.

Except it's not just those people. It's also those people and the people who interact with them in traffic, which may be completely involuntary if, for example, they're being run down....

 

[dimathiel]

What level of punitive damages is likely in this case? Company destroying levels?

One can hope but unlikely.

 

[dimathiel]

Request from non-USAian: What part of of the trial is this? It reads like the judge is making a finding, for good or bad, but it's not the trial?

The bit where both sides hash out what can actually be presented to the jury as evidence aka discovery.

 

[dimathiel]

Whatever they want to be called, I'd guess.

But it seems reasonable for somebody living in a country with "America" in its name to want to be called an "American", don't you think?

My bank in the bit of the form for disclosing tax information has a section asking if you are a US person.

 

[dimathiel]

Specifically, the text immediately above the video on the page at the URL you reference (page title is also "Autopilot", BTW) reads:



It's not until over halfway down the page, after a section titled "Advanced Sensor Coverage" (which for some strange reason only mentions 8 cameras), one titled "Processing Power Increased 40x" detailing the onboard computer running a Tesla-developed neural net, and one titled "Tesla Vision" describing how "each Tesla car has a powerful set of vision processing tools" that you finally get a section named "Autopilot" that includes the lines "Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane." and "Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous." After that are sections on "Navigate on Autopilot", "Autosteer", "Smart Summon", and "Full Self-Driving Capability".

As Tesla famously has neither a public relations department nor conventional advertising, outside of the types of people who consume car and/or tech-focused media, what the average person will know about Autopilot will come from the famously reliable word-of-mouth or that webpage. Everything about that page is designed to blur the lines between "Autopilot" and "FSD" in the mind of the viewer.

Tesla has a defacto PR department in the form of Elon Musk.