Russia seems to have lost contact with its first lunar probe in half a century

"The management team is currently analyzing the situation."

See full article...

 

[Oldmanalex]

The soviets had tracking ships to provide coverage. Contact referenced them. Guess they were sold off for mega yachts and hookers.

It is nice to know that they served a useful purpose, albeit not the original design purpose.

 

[The Dark]

Do they? I know the Soviets had several such ships. But I thought they most capable one (Nedelin class, I think) were retired long ago and not replaced. What sort of ship-based, deep space communications assets do the Russians currently have?

The last remaining ship might be useful for circumlunar work, but probably not anything further than that. Its antenna seems too small for anything outside our local system - while the Russian DSN system has a 64-meter antenna at Moscow and a pair of 70-meter antennas at Yevpatoria, Crimea, Ukraine and Ussuriisk, Primorsky Krai, Russia, the Marshal Krylov has no more than a ~20-meter antenna, based on its beam being 28 meters and the dome being around 2/3 the width of the ship. That's right on the bottom edge of the size of antennas designed to listen to things in lunar space. They were primarily intended for range observations during missile tests and extending the portion of their orbit where communication with LEO spacecraft was possible.

 

[Knockthedoor]

"Future Luna missions will be delayed more, if they fly at all."
How true, ICBMs will be flying long before Luna 26 does.

 

[Snarky Robot]

I turned 60 last week.

Well, I guess Ars actually does exist in the cloud. The incoherent yelling at it makes more sense now.

 

[Smashing Young Man]

Ignore politics. Really, it's hard to do because everything is rubbing politics into your brain, but ignore it. In the end you will realize anyway that it has been the least important thing in your life. You're just being used. Engineering is much more rewarding. Numbers don't lie. What you've learned this way will never be wrong. You'll be able to work with everyone who has worked with the same stuff. Facts are facts. Lies are lies.

Russia is engaging in crimes against humanity on a scale not seen since WWII, and according to you we're just supposed to ignore it. That ain't happening on my end, and thankfully not for the great many others who support Ukraine.

Russia has spent decades trying to make enemies of the West through their actions, and guess what? They succeeded at something for once, because the West finally sees Russia as an unambiguous enemy. Russians didn't believe that would ever happen because the West has been all to willing to look the other way, but no longer. From now on every Russian failure will be met with glee, because bad news for Russia is good news for everyone else.

 

[Nilt]

Engineering is much more rewarding. Numbers don't lie. What you've learned this way will never be wrong. You'll be able to work with everyone who has worked with the same stuff. Facts are facts. Lies are lies.

Keep telling yourself that. It's a bunch of crap but, hey, since you seem to need a binkie to cling to that'll do as well as anything else. In the meantime, let the adults in the conversation alone will ya?

 

[AusPeter]

The loss of Luna 25 is a major setback for Russia's lunar exploration aspirations, and it highlights the challenges and risks inherent in space missions. It also underscores the need for a robust and reliable infrastructure for deep space communication, which is crucial for the success of future lunar missions. The Russian space program will likely face increased scrutiny and pressure to address these issues as it moves forward with its lunar exploration plans. Comment courtesy: blah blah.com

Serious question. What is the point of using an AI generator to craft a comment? Do you not actually have anything to say, but still want to be a part of the conversation? Or are you trying to plug that website (which I have redacted)?

 

[Hopefully Smarter]

Russia has dec died dit wants to be an enemy to the west. It was Putin’s choice.

Fuck the Russians

 

[Papewaio]

Ignore politics. Really, it's hard to do because everything is rubbing politics into your brain, but ignore it. In the end you will realize anyway that it has been the least important thing in your life. You're just being used. Engineering is much more rewarding. Numbers don't lie. What you've learned this way will never be wrong. You'll be able to work with everyone who has worked with the same stuff. Facts are facts. Lies are lies.

You cannot outrun a bad diet.
You cannot out build a bad political environment.

Soviet Union had some of the best engineers, launched the most tonnage to orbit, had some of the most robust hardware in the world. Soviet Union still failed due to its politics.

Roman Engineering was legendary. Rome still fell due to its politics.

Nazi German Engineering was ahead of the Allies. Nazi Germany still fell due to its politics.

China has a rising amount of science and engineering graduates, they also have the unusual situation of having a body politic stuffed with engineering and science trained politicians.

The modern world understands climate change, that includes the fossil fuel companies understanding climate change too. However it isn't getting fixed because of the politics, that includes lobbying by the fossil fuel companies to not do anything.

We are in the messes we are, precisely because we don't have enough engineering and science trained people in politics. So staying in 'our lane' and pretending we shouldn't get involved is part of the problem that got us here and it is not how we get out of the issues we are facing.

 

[brendanc]

I don't even understand what you're meaning to say with this, but I'm Ok with this because I think you all don't understand the stakes we're at anyway. And I don't care anymore. Throw your fucking shit and believe in it making a difference.

We're fucking up this planet and our civilization and most us of seem to think this is the right way to deal with the problem we're being dealt. No. We need to understand how we are failing, not to continue to do so.

And yes, if you don't understand what I am saying, you're a part of the problem. And you will realize this only when you fail to stop the problem rolling over you. And it is rolling over you, isn't it?

* hug *

 

[fcrary]

Not turned to plasma. That would be the case from TLI entry I suspect. In LLO, you're only getting the other outcomes.

2 km/s is 2 MJ/kg kinetic energy. The heat of fusion of aluminum is only 321 J/kg and the latent heat of vaporization is 0.7 MJ/kg. Some of the kinetic energy will go into accelerating the regolith. So some of the aluminum won't turn to gas. But essentially all of it will turn to liquid - and hot liquid at that (never mind the propellant). So yeah, hot liquid with a high pressure stagnation point will lead to an expanding pressure wave that will atomize the aluminum.

Life would be so much easier if that were true. Or rather life would be much harder. I've seen lots of presentations on planetary protection and outer solar system missions. You aren't allowed to assume even a 5 km/s impact velocity would melt (and therefore sterilize) everything. Some parts are going to be blown off and land nearby, solid and sort of intact.

 

[missin']

Yevgeny Prigozhin had something to do with it.

 

[hotdealdave]

Kaputnik

 

[nzod]

I don't even understand what you're meaning to say with this, but I'm Ok with this because I think you all don't understand the stakes we're at anyway. And I don't care anymore. Throw your fucking shit and believe in it making a difference.

We're fucking up this planet and our civilization and most us of seem to think this is the right way to deal with the problem we're being dealt. No. We need to understand how we are failing, not to continue to do so.

And yes, if you don't understand what I am saying, you're a part of the problem. And you will realize this only when you fail to stop the problem rolling over you. And it is rolling over you, isn't it?

I get that the world is spiralling into chaos and pain, and the answer is not hate, but I don't think talking about the science and engineering of a propaganda probe would help the world one iota. It would take large doses of willfully ignoring reality, if even there was anything to talk about beyond a golden blanket with a flag on it. (Not that I could talk about it beyond this level, just my observation.)

 

[fcrary]

After their victory, I am dreaming about a future Ukrainian Moon‑landing mission. Preferably to the very same spot Luna‑25 crashed into, raising a nice flag there. Heck, they might get to even name the recent impact crater...

I checked. The IAU convention is to name lunar craters after explorers, scientists and engineers who were involved in planetary science or spaceflight. The homework assignment is now to find a Russian who fits that description and came to a very bad end. Maybe someone killed in the purges and not rehabilitated.

 

[Nilt]

I think I'm about 10 times more adult than you and the proof of this is that I don't care.

LO-fucking-L! You care so little you have to respond to every little post whining like a ry-adult. So mature. Such grown up!

You will have to punch yourself through as many decades and changes as I did. Good luck, boy. Good luck. You'll need it.

Yeah, I'm less than a decade behind ya, pal, and I've actually put my life on the line to put a stop to shit like Putin is now engaging in before. What the fuck have you ever done?

 

[Maury Markowitz]

(I'll go get my coat and make a hasty French British exit)

Nothing wrong with British cheese, especially when you chase it down a hill.

 

[MMW1957]

Sorry for not having read through all the comments before asking a question, but the article I read this morning said that a micrometer strike had been detected shortly before the malfunction. Has this been confirmed by any reputable sources?
My cynical side that it was just Russia giving itself an excuse for the failure rather than admitting to a shortcoming in their program.

 

[Nilt]

I've staked all my fucking live against it, not just a job.

Have you? You literally laid your life on the line in defense of this sort of thing? for all 60-ish of your years alive?! That's shocking considering how much you claim to be purely reasoning with numbers in an engineering role.

 

[fcrary]

Not really. I mean, yes sort of, but with the right atmospheric conditions, you can bounce VHF off the moon to communicate with the other side of the Earth using HAM legal equipment and power levels. You don't need the DSN to talk to the moon, even with relatively low fain antennas on whatever is on or around the moon. Of course the lower the gain on the lunar end, the higher the gain needed on Earth.

But if you are running a frequency where the ionosphere is transparent, the gain and power levels aren't necessary mind boggling for low modularity communications. Mars is something like 200-1,000x further than the Moon necessitating around 15-20dB higher gain for the same radio power. The moon is about the same 1000x further than low earth orbit. And a handheld 5w radio with a modest antenna can talk to stuff in orbit okay. So you are talking ~20dB higher gain if still using a piddly 5w radio power. Not that hard to do.

I'm sure you could close the link that way. But the data rate would be painfully low. And, since we were talking about sending bogus commands to a spacecraft, you'd need to match the data rate it was expecting to receive and demodulate.

 

[Ax6502]

That seems to meet the definition of landing on the moon. They successfully won the race against Chandrayaan-3.

Au contraire - the definition of a landing is a crash you can walk away from

 

[Stern]

Russia is engaging in crimes against humanity on a scale not seen since WWII

You really need to read up on your post-WW2 history. It's makes for extremely depressing reading, but the current war in Ukraine isn't even top 10 material.

 

[Kiwi_Andy]

Shame they didn’t get a chance to try out their polar exploration suit. Here’s the press photo, in case you missed it

 

[Maury Markowitz]

Plus we don’t have those weird regional naming restrictions. Mostly.

Processed cheese is a regional name enforced by law.

 

[Veritas super omens]

I checked. The IAU convention is to name lunar craters after explorers, scientists and engineers who were involved in planetary science or spaceflight. The homework assignment is now to find a Russian who fits that description and came to a very bad end. Maybe someone killed in the purges and not rehabilitated.

Bonus points if said Russian was defenestrated.

 

[fcrary]

Out of curiosity, are there any sensors on the moon that would have detected the impact in general? Or would it be noise compared to what else is going on in the moon (assuming said sensors actually exist)

The Apollo ALSP seismometer might have been able to do it, but they haven't been operational for a very long time. In theory, the impact site can be imaged from orbit, but we don't have any idea where the impact site is. This wasn't a failed landing. They botched and orbital maneuver in preparation for landing and put the thing on some random orbit which hit the surface at some random place.

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

I think I'm about 10 times more adult than you and the proof of this is that I don't care.

Apathy doesn't signal maturity.

 

[effgee]

OK, everything has its time and Ars had its time and I have to pull myself out of it before it is wasting more of my time than I can afford to waste these days.

Ars for a long time was a sober place to discuss even complex and very difficult things. Then it became popular and basically became what Slashdot was before and now is turning into what Slashdot has become.

I turned 60 last week. I was six years old when mankind made it to the Moon, I saw this live on TV and I remember it and I only realized in the last one or two decades how much this was a thing that really set the limit of what we can do if we really try.

And now I have to see how we still fail at the simplest things, like fucking animals. Fuck all you fucking fuckers.

You think providing your age here validates your point, or rather lack thereof? If anything, that only makes it worse.

If you really were born in the early 1960s you should have a damn good idea of the tail end of 'the-world-at-large' [rightfully] despising Germany's 'old-in-the-1970s' generation for the atrocities the German government committed in their name between 1933 and 1945.

Numerically, most of those Germans left behind in what was left of their country to pick up the literal pieces post-WWII had never actively supported Hitler's NSDAP, let alone having been members thereof. Most of them didn't even fucking vote for Hitler when Germany had its last free'ish election in 1932 [*], and the NSDAP won a whopping 33% of the vote. And yet they too got lumped in with those who actively participated in Germany's monstrous actions. And rightfully so, IMO. At the numerical scale of 'state' or 'country' there absolutely is such a thing as collective guilt.

What the remaining Germans didn't understand in 1945, and what those passive 'But-I-wasn't-involved-Tovarish' Russians will most certainly fail to understand in 'n years' post Ukraine-invasion, is that they're not being held responsible for what they did or did not do in or after 2022 [**], when it was already too late to put up a meaningful resistance to Putin, but that their failure/crime occurred way before in the 1990s/early 2000s, when they had a chance to stand against totalitarianism but chose to not give a fuck instead.

And yes, standing by idly and allowing a crime to be committed right in front of you, when you could have helped/prevented it but chose not to, is a crime in any societal form worth living in.


[* - IMO, those took place on Nov. 6, 1932, since the Reichtagswahl on March 5, 1933 took place a month and a half after the Nazis took power.]
[** - or rather: 2014, if we're being precise here]

 

[Ax6502]

Moscow reports mission is complete success. Because it is not moon landing, it is Special Moon Operation.

Exactly. Специальная Внеземная Операция (СВО) (special outer-Terran operation)

 

[ScreamingFist]

When you give half your country's GDP to like a dozen oligarchs it might make it difficult to function as a nation? Who'd have thought.

It would be nice if other countries could learn the lesson that orienting a country to prop up billionaires doesn’t end well, but alas. The billionaires own the presses.

 

[fcrary]

Oh don’t give me that nonsense. First off, processed cheese is still cheese. I’ve seen it made.

Second, I can get better “European” cheeses in America than I can import from across the pond.

Well, I can because there is a deli a couple blocks from my apartment and the owner is Norman French. He imports the cheeses for me. Seriously, there are some very good American cheeses. But there are also some very, very bad American cheese. And I think we have to pasteurize everything, which limits the variety. (And I don't think I've ever seen fromage blanc in the US.)

 

[markgo]

Is it because of Russia's terrible leadership? If so, may I remind folks that, right now, idiotic Trump, and crooked Joe Biden, are the two leading contestants for the White House! That's not exactly inspiring.

In what way is Joe (not Hunter) Biden crooked?

And how does “idiotic” cover a thrice married, thrice philandering, thrice bankrupt, convicted sex offender on trial for multiple felonies including attempting to illegally keep power?

And if it is because of Russian adventurism in Ukraine, may I remind folks that the US Government isnt much better in that respect. Even as we speak, the US & the French are, for example, quietly orchestrating a potentially devastating conflict in the Sahel, and notably in the Republic of Niger.

Is the US or France bombing hospitals, schools and residences every night? Have they committed documented war crimes? Have they started a conflict that has half a million casualties?

Your false equivalence fu is strong