Trans everything

[demultiplexer]

Note: This thread is to talk about anything transgender. No specific topic or contention, just general questions and answers and discussions wherever they lead. Be nice and please keep the workload manageable for our most valued moderation staff!

Like Horatio said, I'm not continuing this in the original thread but continuing here.

As a parent of 2 trans daughters, it's my perception that gender is not all constructed. The roles and third party expectations are substantially socially constructed. The belief about what gender one is supposed to be isn't. There's an element that's inborn, and it's powerful enough to make a small percentage people identify as other than what social forces tried to make them.

I didn't know that about you and this makes the discussion so much more interesting. I'd love for you to talk more about what you observe in regards to gender and gender expression of your daughters. And in which way you're convinced gender itself isn't fully constructed, rather than pulling the concepts apart in the classical [sex - gender - gender expression] triad.

Happysin responded the way I'd have. But afaik both of us aren't trans and don't have trans family.

Obligatory: if you don't want to give any specific examples that's fine, you have no obligation to respond.

 

[Shavano]

It's straightforward reasoning about issues I'm very close to and observations I made up close. As their parents, their mother and I raised them under the assumption they were boys, would like boy things, and would want to become men. As much as we as parents didn't think there "should" be a big difference in what was expected of them because of their sex, there definitely was. Society pushed them really hard to conform to masculine roles, to dress, behave and relate to others as males are supposed to.

So when I see that two people whose circumstances I know very well bucked all that and were able to decide it all didn't fit, and they would be happier as women, I know that must have come from inside them. Nobody was telling them they were supposed to be girls. They just knew.

But the gender roles, the stereotypes, the toxic masculinity they dealt with? Those things are socially constructed. We don't even know what human beings would be like if we didn't start dividing them by sex and treating them differently as soon as they're clear of the birth canal. We shouldn't expect boys to act one way and girls to act another.

 

[Fortuna Wolf]

I feel like I'm lucky that at the age of 4 one of mine communicated clearly that they were trans. Our community and everyone we interact with has (mostly) smoothly gone along with it. There's still some lingering mistakes here and there but it doesn't seem to bother them because they know we are all trying. No one made a stink.

Having a community that simply accepts it and continues on without making a big deal about it has been very important and I wish it was more universal.

 

[demultiplexer]

It's straightforward reasoning about issues I'm very close to and observations I made up close. As their parents, their mother and I raised them under the assumption they were boys, would like boy things, and would want to become men. As much as we as parents didn't think there "should" be a big difference in what was expected of them because of their sex, there definitely was. Society pushed them really hard to conform to masculine roles, to dress, behave and relate to others as males are supposed to.

Just for my own parenthood decisions: would you have done things differently in hindsight? Have they said they're in any way unhappy with parts of their upbringing? Like, are there things that in hindsight aren't necessary for a boy's upbringing and really grating on a trans girl?

 

[U-99]

I feel like I'm lucky that at the age of 4 one of mine communicated clearly that they were trans.

That's interesting. How is a four year old able to conceptualize and execute that decision to a level that is actionable by responsible adults? (Not challenging; just curious. My age-four nieces and nephews don't express a strong idea of gender roles and tend to latch onto ideas rapidly before discarding them rapidly.)

 

[Shavano]

Just for my own parenthood decisions: would you have done things differently in hindsight? Have they said they're in any way unhappy with parts of their upbringing? Like, are there things that in hindsight aren't necessary for a boy's upbringing and really grating on a trans girl?

yes, but I'm not going into details on that.

I would just say let them choose their own activities, friends, etc. Let them tell what toys they would like. Avoid making generalizations in their hearing about men or women and correct them on those ideas when they bring them to you, because they're bound to pick them up from the culture. Avoid toxic organizations like evangelical or conservative churches and single sex organizations.

 

[9600man]

That's interesting. How is a four year old able to conceptualize and execute that decision to a level that is actionable by responsible adults? (Not challenging; just curious. My age-four nieces and nephews don't express a strong idea of gender roles and tend to latch onto ideas rapidly before discarding them rapidly.)

I don't speak for the parents or the little girl I'm going to write about in this post. I want that to be made clear. That being said:

My daughter has a friend who has very clear ideas of her gender identity at the moment. Her parents without getting to much into the details are your typical parents from the west, liberal, but both you could from a distance say fill their generalised gender roles, i.e. the father is more 'masculine: very active in sports and likes his beers; and the mother is more 'feminine' likes to do girly stuff, go shopping and drinks wine.
Taking some broad strokes for sake of simplicity.

My daughter's friend prefers dressing up as a boy. And when my daughter and her friend discuss books from the latest series of books they've shared, her friend will always relate to the male protagonists. The friction between my daughter and her friend often comes down to my daughter wanting to do 'girl' stuff, and her friend wanting to do 'boy' stuff.

The parents have expressed I wouldn't say concerns for their daughter, but concerns on how to be properly supportive of their daughter.

I'm talking about a girl who when all this was happening was 5 years old! She's a little older and still feels much the same way about herself. I haven't used gender pronouns here because she hasn't expressed what gender pronouns she prefers. Her parents and the community (including ourselves) have been mindful and respectful and supportive to whatever this lovely joyful little girl needs.

I think what impresses me is this girl's confidence in knowing a part of who she is already. This isn't a flight of fancy or role playing. My daughter (including her friend) flits from role playing their favorite characters from whatever series of books they're reading at the moment.

"I'm a dragon master and have these powers!!"
Oh yeah, that's cool, what's your dragon's name.....
"No daddy, that's so 5 minutes ago, I love unicorns and my unicorn has twilight moon powers!!!" (I forget which series of books that's from but it is from a book, iirc)
Oh yeah, okay unicorns, cool, cool cool cool.. what...
"Unicorns? What I don't like unicorns, I'm at Upside-Down Magic school and I'm a 'fluxxer!!!'"
Wait, what's Upside down magic, and did you say "fluXXer"?

And through all these changes and books series and fantasy role playing the one thing remains constant, my daughter's friend still prefers to do 'boy' stuff and relates to the 'boys' and role plays the 'boys' in these stories.

Totally random off-topic minor rant: I thought playdates were to keep kids busy. Yet whenever my daughter's friends come over for playdate, other than the usual snack breaks when I get up and get the tables and snacks sorted, you'd think I could sit back and focus on my stuff.
But nooooo!!! Every 10-15 minutes these kids come out, hover around me while I'm on my computer and wacom tablet, and then ask me what i'm doing. I answer politely and then encourage the kids to go back and play in my daughter's room. Inevitably another kid comes out, or they all come outside and hover around me while i'm either doing CG or illustrator work and end up asking me a million questions. Which I answer politely and then encourage the kids to go play.
This happens enough I stop working and tidy my laptop and wacom tablet away.
I then pick up a guitar I have sitting around the living room - and strum as quietly as I fucking can - and sure enough a little head pops out the door then a foot and then a shy quiet walk with very curious eyes with questions I can see floating in front of them that I'm soon to hear. Before I know it all the kids are out asking me questions, my daughter shouting above them all "my daddy is a guitar player he has so many guitars even more in other rooms, but you can't touch them, even I'm not allowed to touch them!!"
Aren't playdates supposed to be for kids to play with each other instead of asking a parent a million questions of what they're doing every few minutes.

While that is off-topic it serves a purpose in that I've had the annoying pleasure to see these kids interact, kids of wildly different personalities, self esteem, confidence, and cultural backgrounds.
So when this little girl who identify's as a boy I can tell you it is sincere and it isn't a fantasy role play. Because some kids you can see they're remarkably self aware of who they are and what they want to be. Wether that all changes in adolescence, early adulthood, late adulthood, that's not a path anyone can predict a future trajectory.

So while it's not necessary kids in general know their gender identity so self assuredly at a young age, that self discovery is bound to happen regardless. We as adults can't be the arbiters of when this happens especially when as adults we become corrupted by a mishmash of social/cultural messages growing up along with vague memories of what it was like being a child at such a young age - which to many grownups idealise as having the better more resilient generation than the next generation ahead of them.

I hope my experience adds to the topic at hand.

 

[Deleted member 43669]

I will not comment on the complex topics that this thread will probably go into, and this might be a simplistic analysis but...

Aren't many of those "boy-girl" things really advisable to let kids enjoy no matter what? Wouldn't it be healthier if ALL kids got to try all games to see if they enjoy them? Are we really sure that it won't be something like a huge majority of kids ending up enjoying things "traditionally" associated to the other gender? (I will also not comment on the subtexts of stuff such as "war games", etc.) Dress is also a mostly completely idiotic made up construct.

Gender identity seems to me such a complex topic that... as I don't intend on participating in raising children any time soon, I don't feel educated enough to have an opinion. But honestly, I feel sad that little girls don't have more "Frozen-style" movies , where there's a girl superhero (and also, where the main love story is "sisterly love", which I expect is much more relatable to them). I was thrilled one Christmas when my GF's nephews got lightsabers and they (and well, everyone) had a huge blast duelling each other. Of course I'm biased because "boy games" where what gave me the most fun when I was a boy, but I feel esp. sad because I think we're letting kids enjoy a small subset of the fun they could have (particularly girls- just another thing on top of being born into a society that is so hostile to them). I think all kids should get chances to try everything- even if they don't like "other gender" clothes, they should get to try everything without any pressure. Frozen came nearly ten years ago, and at that time, I thought things could get better quickly, but I see things are not advancing?

 

[Raptor]

Aren't many of those "boy-girl" things really advisable to let kids enjoy no matter what? Wouldn't it be healthier if ALL kids got to try all games to see if they enjoy them? Are we really sure that it won't be something like a huge majority of kids ending up enjoying things "traditionally" associated to the other gender?

I think so. Honestly it seems to me we'd turn out much more well adjusted and rounded people across the board if we just let people be themselves.

But I'm also fairly strongly of the opinion that gender roles (not the innate, internal sense of gender itself) are bullshit anyway, and should have been abandoned long ago.

 

[Fortuna Wolf]

That's interesting. How is a four year old able to conceptualize and execute that decision to a level that is actionable by responsible adults? (Not challenging; just curious. My age-four nieces and nephews don't express a strong idea of gender roles and tend to latch onto ideas rapidly before discarding them rapidly.)

I noticed that while my oldest has never strongly expressed his gender identity as a boy he's had also never needed to. My two year old very early on expressed that they loved purple and pink and sparkles and unicorns and kitties and everything stereotypical, and she chimes in with my middle that she's a girl too. My middle never expressed a gender identity until around 4. She said she wanted to wear a daisy costume for Halloween, so we did and after that that's all she wanted to wear after she realized that that was ok. After that it was a few months for her to assert her gender identity and pick a new name.

Someone else has addressed the difference between sincerely held beliefs in kids and short term interests and play already. But even if it was just a temporary thing we would still go along with it because exploration is part of growing up and it harms nothing.

 

[Pocky Is God]

I don't speak for the parents or the little girl I'm going to write about in this post. I want that to be made clear. That being said:

My daughter has a friend who has very clear ideas of her gender identity at the moment. Her parents without getting to much into the details are your typical parents from the west, liberal, but both you could from a distance say fill their generalised gender roles, i.e. the father is more 'masculine: very active in sports and likes his beers; and the mother is more 'feminine' likes to do girly stuff, go shopping and drinks wine.
Taking some broad strokes for sake of simplicity.

My daughter's friend prefers dressing up as a boy. And when my daughter and her friend discuss books from the latest series of books they've shared, her friend will always relate to the male protagonists. The friction between my daughter and her friend often comes down to my daughter wanting to do 'girl' stuff, and her friend wanting to do 'boy' stuff.

The parents have expressed I wouldn't say concerns for their daughter, but concerns on how to be properly supportive of their daughter.

I'm talking about a girl who when all this was happening was 5 years old! She's a little older and still feels much the same way about herself. I haven't used gender pronouns here because she hasn't expressed what gender pronouns she prefers. Her parents and the community (including ourselves) have been mindful and respectful and supportive to whatever this lovely joyful little girl needs.

I think what impresses me is this girl's confidence in knowing a part of who she is already. This isn't a flight of fancy or role playing. My daughter (including her friend) flits from role playing their favorite characters from whatever series of books they're reading at the moment.

"I'm a dragon master and have these powers!!"
Oh yeah, that's cool, what's your dragon's name.....
"No daddy, that's so 5 minutes ago, I love unicorns and my unicorn has twilight moon powers!!!" (I forget which series of books that's from but it is from a book, iirc)
Oh yeah, okay unicorns, cool, cool cool cool.. what...
"Unicorns? What I don't like unicorns, I'm at Upside-Down Magic school and I'm a 'fluxxer!!!'"
Wait, what's Upside down magic, and did you say "fluXXer"?

And through all these changes and books series and fantasy role playing the one thing remains constant, my daughter's friend still prefers to do 'boy' stuff and relates to the 'boys' and role plays the 'boys' in these stories.

Totally random off-topic minor rant: I thought playdates were to keep kids busy. Yet whenever my daughter's friends come over for playdate, other than the usual snack breaks when I get up and get the tables and snacks sorted, you'd think I could sit back and focus on my stuff.
But nooooo!!! Every 10-15 minutes these kids come out, hover around me while I'm on my computer and wacom tablet, and then ask me what i'm doing. I answer politely and then encourage the kids to go back and play in my daughter's room. Inevitably another kid comes out, or they all come outside and hover around me while i'm either doing CG or illustrator work and end up asking me a million questions. Which I answer politely and then encourage the kids to go play.
This happens enough I stop working and tidy my laptop and wacom tablet away.
I then pick up a guitar I have sitting around the living room - and strum as quietly as I fucking can - and sure enough a little head pops out the door then a foot and then a shy quiet walk with very curious eyes with questions I can see floating in front of them that I'm soon to hear. Before I know it all the kids are out asking me questions, my daughter shouting above them all "my daddy is a guitar player he has so many guitars even more in other rooms, but you can't touch them, even I'm not allowed to touch them!!"
Aren't playdates supposed to be for kids to play with each other instead of asking a parent a million questions of what they're doing every few minutes.

While that is off-topic it serves a purpose in that I've had the annoying pleasure to see these kids interact, kids of wildly different personalities, self esteem, confidence, and cultural backgrounds.
So when this little girl who identify's as a boy I can tell you it is sincere and it isn't a fantasy role play. Because some kids you can see they're remarkably self aware of who they are and what they want to be. Wether that all changes in adolescence, early adulthood, late adulthood, that's not a path anyone can predict a future trajectory.

So while it's not necessary kids in general know their gender identity so self assuredly at a young age, that self discovery is bound to happen regardless. We as adults can't be the arbiters of when this happens especially when as adults we become corrupted by a mishmash of social/cultural messages growing up along with vague memories of what it was like being a child at such a young age - which to many grownups idealise as having the better more resilient generation than the next generation ahead of them.

I hope my experience adds to the topic at hand.

This is where logically I trip over myself trying to understand. I don't think anything you listed here is something that would innately make this little girl a boy, and in a weird roundabout backwards way, I see this as reinforcing gender stereotypes that supposedly we are all trying to get rid of. Liking boy things and doing boy things/identifying with boy characters doesn't make one a boy, it makes you interested in things that are masculine. That doesn't make you any more of a boy than it makes me a girl if I dig movies like Love Actually, or like the color pink (stereotype/cliche on purpose). Its just shit I like.

What makes this behavior truly trans issues as opposed to a little girl who probably likes Conan the Barbarian. And not the momoa one, the one and only that freed the slaves from Thulsa Doom.

 

[Delor]

It is reinforcing gender stereotypes, but we live in a gendered society and the burden of deciding gender doesn't matter- should we decide we want to live in a genderless society- shouldn't rest entirely on the shoulders of trans people. You can try not to teach your kids any gendered stereotypes, and even actively teach them that these things needn't be gender essentialist, but at the end of the day they live in a world that still cares about these things and will act accordingly.

As for "what makes this truly a trans issue", what makes it truly a trans person is the child self-identifying as trans. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, you should treat it exactly like you say- that's a girl who likes Conan the Barbarian. As for "how do you know?", you don't truly know and they don't either. Self discovery is a lifelong journey and playing with identities is part of childhood.

That's interesting. How is a four year old able to conceptualize and execute that decision to a level that is actionable by responsible adults? (Not challenging; just curious. My age-four nieces and nephews don't express a strong idea of gender roles and tend to latch onto ideas rapidly before discarding them rapidly.)

To my mind, at least: The conceptualization is easy. A two-year-old can make generalizations about gender, ie. my daughter saying "I like pink because I'm a girl." If you can conceptualize that distinct things exist and you can conceptualize yourself, you can conceptualize yourself as this thing. And if the action is just "call me this instead" where doing so is something you'd do for anyone, it seems like the threshold for actionability should be is pretty low too. There's also a decent chunk of trans people who said they knew it from a fairly young age, so I give that some weight as well.

This doesn't mean they have a deep understanding of what they're claiming or that they're right (but they might be) or that they'll never change. Everyone changes- I've got a friend in her 40s who just decided she didn't want to be a man anymore. It's just... if your kid is wrong and you play along you're modelling for your child the sort of supportive, empathic behavior you'd like them to grow up with and you can always switch back when they decide otherwise. It's not like it's free or non-stressful for you- and certainly if my kids came to me with something like that I'd be asking them if they're sure, reminding them that this is going to create a lot of awkwardness and extra work in their life, etc, because they might not understand how society will react if they do this- but the alternative is doing something that's potentially harmful to them.

So, on the whole I can understand why a kid might tell you they're trans and it seems to me like they should probably be supported if they say so. Or, at least, that's the conclusion I come to when I worry my kids are going to say something like that. Heavens knows that's a hat they might just try to try on even if they aren't, as they're exposed to transgender people in their life and have been explained what that means several times and trying on hats is just what kids do.

 

[GohanIYIan]

This is where logically I trip over myself trying to understand. I don't think anything you listed here is something that would innately make this little girl a boy, and in a weird roundabout backwards way, I see this as reinforcing gender stereotypes that supposedly we are all trying to get rid of. Liking boy things and doing boy things/identifying with boy characters doesn't make one a boy, it makes you interested in things that are masculine. That doesn't make you any more of a boy than it makes me a girl if I dig movies like Love Actually, or like the color pink (stereotype/cliche on purpose). Its just shit I like.

What makes this behavior truly trans issues as opposed to a little girl who probably likes Conan the Barbarian. And not the momoa one, the one and only that freed the slaves from Thulsa Doom.

I think there's idealism vs pragmatism. At an individual level, you can't really do anything about the fact that gender stereotypes exist. The desire to fit in seems pretty understandable, even if the society people are trying to fit into is currently suboptimal.

 

[Shavano]

I think there's idealism vs pragmatism. At an individual level, you can't really do anything about the fact that gender stereotypes exist. The desire to fit in seems pretty understandable, even if the society people are trying to fit into is currently suboptimal.

I agree, and that makes sense from the perspective of a child. But from the perspective of a parent, it is your job to protect your children from as many of the harmful effects of gender stereotypes and busybodies as possible.

 

[Megalodon]

As for "what makes this truly a trans issue", what makes it truly a trans person is the child self-identifying as trans. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, you should treat it exactly like you say- that's a girl who likes Conan the Barbarian. As for "how do you know?", you don't truly know and they don't either. Self discovery is a lifelong journey and playing with identities is part of childhood.

Also worth noting that self-diagnosis is quite reliable, and of the small minority that regret seeking gender-affirming care, it's usually because of societal barriers and discrimination. AFAICT there's no approach here consistent with medical ethics or any other defensible view other than just letting people decide for themselves.

 

[GohanIYIan]

I agree, and that makes sense from the perspective of a child. But from the perspective of a parent, it is your job to protect your children from as many of the harmful effects of gender stereotypes and busybodies as possible.

I would term that idealistic too though. Eventually you do have to send them out in the world, such as it is. I wouldn't judge anyone harshly for prioritizing supporting their own child over trying to change social norms, even if those things wind up pointing in somewhat different directions.

 

[Megalodon]

This is where logically I trip over myself trying to understand. I don't think anything you listed here is something that would innately make this little girl a boy, and in a weird roundabout backwards way, I see this as reinforcing gender stereotypes that supposedly we are all trying to get rid of.

Stereotypes perhaps, but not expression. I see nothing to suggest you have anything other than the best intentions by saying this, but the reality is I don't think cis people really understand gender and to the extent they might be starting to learn, and I include myself with this, it's by way of trans people exploring it and reporting back. And that goes double for cis dudes, again including me. We have the privilege of the defaults that we enjoy without thought or effort. I don't think it's possible for us, starting where we are now, to blithely say we're trying to get rid of stereotypes without that also being a demand for supremacy of the defaults that we enjoy and others do not. I don't think it's possible for us to imagine a society without gender stereotypes. But if that's the aspiration I think the only way to even head in that direction is to just let kids and anyone else be trans if that's what they decide.

There's a kind of condescension, and again I don't think this is intentional, to stymieing someone's expression just because there's a perception, and not necessarily and accurate one, that they're trying to express themselves in opposition to something we don't agree with. Who are we to say it's a negative that's opposed to something, rather than an affirmation of something new? Or maybe it's a complex combination of those things and others.

 

[9600man]

This is where logically I trip over myself trying to understand. I don't think anything you listed here is something that would innately make this little girl a boy, and in a weird roundabout backwards way, I see this as reinforcing gender stereotypes that supposedly we are all trying to get rid of. Liking boy things and doing boy things/identifying with boy characters doesn't make one a boy, it makes you interested in things that are masculine. That doesn't make you any more of a boy than it makes me a girl if I dig movies like Love Actually, or like the color pink (stereotype/cliche on purpose). Its just shit I like.

What makes this behavior truly trans issues as opposed to a little girl who probably likes Conan the Barbarian. And not the momoa one, the one and only that freed the slaves from Thulsa Doom.

I’m skipping a lot of personal details here which I don’t feel comfortable talking about. I didn’t say this girl is identifying with “boy traits” as these children stories don’t have classical gender roles anyway. She’s identifying with being a boy and what the boys do, which in these fantasy books for kids aren’t any different from what the girls are doing.
That’s about as far as I’ll go, but the key is she’s identifies with the boys in the books.

I’m realising now I’ve dug a hole for myself because I get to the point I’m dropping so many hints I might as well be more specific which I don’t want to do.

So I’ll leave this as it is.

 

[Shavano]

I would term that idealistic too though. Eventually you do have to send them out in the world, such as it is. I wouldn't judge anyone harshly for prioritizing supporting their own child over trying to change social norms, even if those things wind up pointing in somewhat different directions.

I don't understand this comment at all. My best effort at interpreting it is you imagine parents are pushing their kids to explore socially gender-specific options that are not what the kids seek for themselves. There might be a tiny, tiny minority of people like that. It's dwarfed by the number of parents that try to let their kids figure it out for themselves and that is in turn dwarfed by a vast majority of parents that consciously or unconsciously reinforce a fixed gender concept and push their kids really hard to be little boys or little girls according to their own ideas of what is appropriate for those groups respectively.

 

[redleader]

I’m skipping a lot of personal details here which I don’t feel comfortable talking about. I didn’t say this girl is identifying with “boy traits” as these children stories don’t have classical gender roles anyway. She’s identifying with being a boy and what the boys do, which in these fantasy books for kids aren’t any different from what the girls are doing.
That’s about as far as I’ll go, but the key is she’s identifies with the boys in the books.

I’m realising now I’ve dug a hole for myself because I get to the point I’m dropping so many hints I might as well be more specific which I don’t want to do.

So I’ll leave this as it is.

I don't know the details but honestly that sounds pretty normal for a 5 year old, especially if the parents aren't really coercive about introducing gender roles. I'd be hesitant to think that reflects how they're going to feel as an adult rather than just how arbitrary gender expectations are for kids.

 

[Jehos]

I don't know the details but honestly that sounds pretty normal for a 5 year old, especially if the parents aren't really coercive about introducing gender roles. I'd be hesitant to think that reflects how they're going to feel as an adult rather than just how arbitrary gender expectations are for kids.

Indeed. My little sister looked in the toy box for her penis when she was small--she thought she had lost it. That didn't make her trans, it made her two.

That said, I'm willing to take 9600man at face value if he says it's different.

 

[Raptor]

what makes it truly a trans person is the child self-identifying as trans.

This is really the one and only answer, no matter the person or age.

There's no actual test for it (even a 'professional diagnosis' is one of probabilities), and there's no sign next to the entryway saying, "You must be at least this trans to ride". Ultimately the only person who can answer the question is the individual themselves - and taking them at their word is simply extending the same basic courtesy any cis person gets when they confirm their gender.

Beyond how you feel internally, can you actually prove your gender? Scientifically we know chromosomes (and as a result, physical presentation of primary/secondary sexual characteristics ) aren't entirely reliable - so as a practical matter, what's left beyond taking someone at their word when they tell you?

Just because most people's physical characteristics happen to align with the body they know they should have, doesn't invalidate the same innate knowledge of people born in bodies that don't.

 

[wireframed]

As for "what makes this truly a trans issue", what makes it truly a trans person is the child self-identifying as trans. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, you should treat it exactly like you say- that's a girl who likes Conan the Barbarian. As for "how do you know?", you don't truly know and they don't either. Self discovery is a lifelong journey and playing with identities is part of childhood.

I think my “issue”*) with it is, does a child have any idea what being “trans” means? My wife wanted to be a boy at one point, because in her culture, boys had it easier and she didn’t think that was fair. She also had two brothers, and likes a lot of the stuff they did.

Had she heard about the concept of “trans” as a 6-year old, I’m pretty sure she would have concluded she was trans. But she isn’t, she just has some traditionally masculine traits and enjoys some of the stuff guys do.

I think once people get older, there are definitely people who turn out to be either trans, or not fit our traditional gender roles. But I just struggle to imagine a 5-7 year old who has the kind of introspection required to really know that.

It doesn’t matter, I guess. If a kid born as a girl wants to be treated as a boy while we figure everything out, no sweat. Mostly gender shouldn’t even matter for kids until puberty anyway. Girl wants to play soldier or boy play house? Go ahead.

*) Issue in quotes because I don’t have an actual issue with it, it’s not my fight, but couldn’t find a synonym that meant “curious wondering about the subject”

 

[Delor]

I mean, I kind of tried to touch that above: Does it matter? If the kid says they want to be treated as if they were, I'll do that- after a talk about the baggage that this will come with- because that's the way you treat people, and how I want them to model for them how they should treat people. You respect people's ability to decide for themselves who they are and how they feel, and you call people by the name, honorific, and gender they want within reason and I'm defining this as within reason. If the hypothetical child decides they aren't later, so what? We'll switch back. It's not like there's an actual, verifiable truth or anyone scoring me against that truth.

 

[Paladin]

I mean, I kind of tried to touch that above: Does it matter? If the kid says they want to be treated as if they were, I'll do that- after a talk about the baggage that this will come with- because that's the way you treat people, and how I want them to model for them how they should treat people. You respect people's ability to decide for themselves who they are and how they feel, and you call people by the name, honorific, and gender they want within reason and I'm defining this as within reason. If the hypothetical child decides they aren't later, so what? We'll switch back. It's not like there's an actual, verifiable truth or anyone scoring me against that truth.

That's true up to the point where things have been 'set in stone' by medical actions etc. Gender identity and expressing interest in things that are traditionally 'gendered' one way or the other (the stereotypical trucks/g.i. joe vs. unicorns/barbies thing, etc.) is a pretty fluid thing in almost all kids as they begin to express their independence from what their parents assign to them. Most parents tend to imprint on their children via their own interests. Parents who like LotR will tend to enjoy that in the presence of their children and the children adopt that interest in order to socialize with the parent to some degree, for example. Substitute Star Wars, MLP, Classical or Jazz music, cars, fashion, whatever. Same difference, children reach an age where they realize that parents have interests outside of their children and they adopt that interest to some degree to maintain the interest of their parents. It's natural. It can also be short lived as the child develops their own ego and personality and they desire the parents to reciprocate interest in the child's hobbies or whatever.

In any case, all of that is very separate from taking what one might consider an 'alternative' interest in traditionally opposite gendered hobbies and subjects and proclaiming that it means the child is trans and must now complete their transition process in a satisfying manner to be, again, socially acceptable. Deciding that a child who was born with primarily female physical characteristics who prefers to often play sports, enjoys books or movies with male protagonists, or likes playing with 'boys toys' over dolls or whatever, and deciding that the child is trans and should be offered or given medical treatment to further the transition is decidedly hasty and I would consider it a form of abuse since it is obviously something the parent is deciding before the child can even comprehend the choice at hand.

Not that anyone has mentioned that kind of scenario up to this point but it definitely has been suggested in certain circles where trans-positivism has boiled to a point where I think some steps are taken prematurely. The person in question really needs to understand both their own gender identity and sexuality and the details of transitioning and all the social and medical implications before anything like that can even start.

Of course there are medical situations where a parent has to make a decision at roughly the time of birth, but those are relatively rare and have always been a personal conundrum between parents and doctors. Sometimes they turn out ok, sometimes not but I think they are generally made in the best effort to address the needs of the child rather than the preferences of the parents. Hopefully at least.

Anyway, yeah, moderation in all things and honesty and transparency are key in this kind of thing. I think so much of these kind of previously taboo issues have become so complicated because people didn't like to talk about them. It's good to make sure that when children need information, they can be helped to understand in an appropriate manner that is helpful for their age. Some parents don't seem to want to do that, even though they need to, and some parents seem to think it is their job to dump all their issues onto their kids prematurely. Both situations create a lot of confusion for children.

 

[Delor]

That's true up to the point where things have been 'set in stone' by medical actions etc.

I'm not talking about medical intervention at all, and we're talking about a hypothetical four-year-old here. If my four year old wanted gender confirmation surgery, then the two of us are discussing that but delaying taking any actions until they get closer to puberty and both are older and have had more time to think about it- with the caveat that if this is what they ultimately decide they want, I will support them and I will make it clear to them that I will.

Most trans people don't receive surgery. Among adults I know it's about 20% and among children it's literally zero. If my kid asked for that, that's a special case I'm dealing with differently than I would talk about if I'm talking about trans people in general.

In any case, all of that is very separate from taking what one might consider an 'alternative' interest in traditionally opposite gendered hobbies and subjects and proclaiming that it means the child is trans and must now complete their transition process in a satisfying manner to be, again, socially acceptable.

... yeah? Telling people what gender they are and forcing them to go through some process to get approval for it is awful. Don't do that.

 

[Paladin]

Yup, that is what I said. I know it's not a controversial stance but to some people... it is. And yeah, I mentioned it was not something being discussed but it was sort of the end state implication when some overly motivated people take the next and next and next step without a pause for introspection. I'm not even close to saying it is frequent but if it happens at all, that is too much. Heck, forget medical intervention, if parents even use their children as a bully pulpit for their own social agenda, that is too much, regardless of the message. Kids are not billboards.

 

[Louis XVI]

Yup, that is what I said. I know it's not a controversial stance but to some people... it is. And yeah, I mentioned it was not something being discussed but it was sort of the end state implication when some overly motivated people take the next and next and next step without a pause for introspection. I'm not even close to saying it is frequent but if it happens at all, that is too much. Heck, forget medical intervention, if parents even use their children as a bully pulpit for their own social agenda, that is too much, regardless of the message. Kids are not billboards.

(Emphasis added.)

Holy slippery slope, Batman!

 

[Paladin]

(Emphasis added.)

Holy slippery slope, Batman!

I don't disagree, hence the 'next and next and next' stuff. As I said, no one here seems to be so inclined but I have definitely seen people talking about going that way and seen people who are on the path. My wife is a 4th grade teacher and a small few of her students over the last few years have occasionally had some very unusual behavioral issues related to gender identity stuff and sex and sexual orientation concepts that when brought up with their parents in meetings, it quickly became clear that the parents had basically been either allowing the kids to overhear some very confusing and age inappropriate concepts or they had intentionally told them things in a way that left the kids confused, and sometimes aggressive toward other kids about the concepts in question.

4th grade is usually 9 and 10 years old so kids are just on the edge of puberty, some already just starting it and they are vulnerable and at a point where they need some clear information and help to navigate the coming torrents of change but it seems some parents err on the side of letting youtube/instagram/tiktok do all that, and some focus so much on their own personal issues or journey that it leaves the kids very confused. It's pretty scary sometimes how much of a mess they can make. It's complicated stuff, to be sure, but I think a good number of parents are skipping some of the basics and the clear info in favor of their own platform and ideologies, or just doing nothing. Of course, you have the traditional denialist approach of the religious zealots too, that does its own special damage. :/

 

[Pocky Is God]

I don't know the details but honestly that sounds pretty normal for a 5 year old, especially if the parents aren't really coercive about introducing gender roles. I'd be hesitant to think that reflects how they're going to feel as an adult rather than just how arbitrary gender expectations are for kids.

Yeah, the additional details/clarification make it sound somehow worse to me. To immediately jump to "Oh, little billy is trans" as opposed to recognizing that my son may wear a dress, or likes princesses, or any other stereotypically gender based thing that might not be traditionally in his wheel house sounds like parents looking at this behavior through an adult, in the socially conscious world.

And the fact that you guys are stating that there is no test to determine if they are truly Trans or not, how are dare we jump to that conclusion when it may be just that Sally likes He-Man instead of She-Ra. Now this isn't to say I don't truly believe that there are people out there that truly feel like they are in the wrong body, but I feel like that needs years of therapy and talking and medical professional help to determine. Parents just noticing non-gender conforming behavior should just be that, oh, they like so and so. Big deal.

Having a raised a daughter, I can safely (and completely in a non bigot way) say that if she came to me at 4 and said she was a boy, I'd question her: I'd ask her why, and if her only impetus was that she liked Captain America and not Captain Marvel, I'd simply respond that she was still a girl, and girls can like those things too. That doesn't make her a boy.

Am I now Hitler/Pol Pot/Stalin/Rowling?

 

[Scandinavian Film]

Yeah, the additional details/clarification make it sound somehow worse to me. To immediately jump to "Oh, little billy is trans" as opposed to recognizing that my son may wear a dress, or likes princesses, or any other stereotypically gender based thing that might not be traditionally in his wheel house sounds like parents looking at this behavior through an adult, in the socially conscious world.

And the fact that you guys are stating that there is no test to determine if they are truly Trans or not, how are dare we jump to that conclusion when it may be just that Sally likes He-Man instead of She-Ra. Now this isn't to say I don't truly believe that there are people out there that truly feel like they are in the wrong body, but I feel like that needs years of therapy and talking and medical professional help to determine. Parents just noticing non-gender conforming behavior should just be that, oh, they like so and so. Big deal.

Having a raised a daughter, I can safely (and completely in a non bigot way) say that if she came to me at 4 and said she was a boy, I'd question her: I'd ask her why, and if her only impetus was that she liked Captain America and not Captain Marvel, I'd simply respond that she was still a girl, and girls can like those things too. That doesn't make her a boy.

Am I now Hitler/Pol Pot/Stalin/Rowling?

No, but you are getting preemptively defensive. Relax, no one here is going to call you Hitler.

I think a lot of people are putting too much weight behind a need to determine if a child is “really trans” or not, when the actual question you and the child should be asking is what to do about it. Things like HRT or surgery are treatment options. They aren’t the things that make you trans, or even something that every trans person does. A six year old won’t be doing any of that, at any rate. The only thing you’d do at that point would be switching what pronouns you use with them, and maybe calling them by a different name or getting them some different clothes. All easily-reversed stuff if you’re worried they’ll change their mind later.

The earliest medical intervention I’m aware of is puberty blockers, so not something done until age ten or so, and those are also quite reversible, IIRC.

 

[9600man]

What if a daughter loves all things “girly” loves dressing, loves listening to true crime podcasts (interesting stat, about 70-80% of listeners of true crime podcasts are women. This was a surprising and unexpected discovery). And what if she says deep down she’s always felt like a boy.

What if a kid comes out and says they’re gay, or bi-sexual, or asexual. We’ve circled back to accept homosexuality. Yet can’t accept transgender?

Why is sexual identity being treated differently from gender identity? Maybe the two are an adjacent physiological makeup of an individual.

 

[wireframed]

What if a daughter loves all things “girly” loves dressing, loves listening to true crime podcasts (interesting stat, about 70-80% of listeners of true crime podcasts are women. This was a surprising and unexpected discovery). And what if she says deep down she’s always felt like a boy.

What if a kid comes out and says they’re gay, or bi-sexual, or asexual. We’ve circled back to accept homosexuality. Yet can’t accept transgender?

Why is sexual identity being treated differently from gender identity? Maybe the two are an adjacent physiological makeup of an individual.

It’s not about being unable to accept transgenderism. If my daughter said she was a lesbian because she thinks boys are icky as a 4-year old, I’d also just shrug and say “Sure you are honey”.

Maybe the child is transgender, maybe they’re just trying stuff out. Kids do that a lot and it isn’t always a big deal. Of course you should support whatever gender identity they figure out, but we shouldn’t make them think they need to label something because they happen to like action men as a girl or Barbie as a boy.

 

[Raptor]

Maybe the child is transgender, maybe they’re just trying stuff out. Kids do that a lot and it isn’t always a big deal. Of course you should support whatever gender identity they figure out, but we shouldn’t make them think they need to label something because they happen to like action men as a girl or Barbie as a boy.

IMO, that's reasonable and the main thrust of my argument when it comes to children.

Kids are kids, they try stuff out. Some of it they keep, some of it they don't. That's entirely normal and to be expected.

But they should be free to do that, and not preemptively walled off from certain activities simply because "that's for boys/girls, not you".

One of my nephews often tends toward "traditionally non gender conforming" interests and self expression.
Does that mean at age 8 he's gay or trans or anything other than a run of the mill eight year old boy?

No idea, it's too early to tell, and he's not made any declarations either way. Nor does he need to.

But he's given the freedom to explore those things and be himself, which includes figuring out who he is, without outside interference of adults trying to herd him into a particular box of gender roles and interests.

 

[wireframed]

IMO, that's reasonable and the main thrust of my argument when it comes to children.

Kids are kids, they try stuff out. Some of it they keep, some of it they don't. That's entirely normal and to be expected.

But they should be free to do that, and not preemptively walled off from certain activities simply because "that's for boys/girls, not you".

One of my nephews often tends toward "traditionally non gender conforming" interests and self expression.
Does that mean at age 8 he's gay or trans or anything other than a run of the mill eight year old boy?

No idea, it's too early to tell, and he's not made any declarations either way. Nor does he need to.

But he's given the freedom to explore those things and be himself, which includes figuring out who he is, without outside interference of adults trying to herd him into a particular box of gender roles and interests.

Sounds reasonable. We would be a lot better off if we didn’t try to label toys, colors, jobs and recreational activities as masculine or feminine. Let kids figure out what they want without painting stuff as “not for you”.

 

[Shavano]

Not that anyone has mentioned that kind of scenario up to this point but it definitely has been suggested in certain circles where trans-positivism has boiled to a point where I think some steps are taken prematurely. The person in question really needs to understand both their own gender identity and sexuality and the details of transitioning and all the social and medical implications before anything like that can even start.

"it has been suggested in certain circles" doesn't mean it happens in real life. In real life, children get counseling by professionals before any medical steps are taken and the child's maturity level, understanding, and ability to make a decision about whether they are trans or not is found out.

 

[papadage]

"It has been suggested in certain circles" that some schools have litter boxes for kids who identify as furries, a slur used to attack schools, furries, and people who support trans kids, all in one ridiculous statement.

Let's not use the "some say" argument of unsourced BS put out by terrible astroturf campaigns.

 

[Raptor]

Now this isn't to say I don't truly believe that there are people out there that truly feel like they are in the wrong body, but I feel like that needs years of therapy and talking and medical professional help to determine.

(Emphasis added to highlight the particularly relevant bit.)

Broadening to beyond just "children", but it really depends on the individual. Some people need that, some don't. And while it sounds like a good and reasonable idea, as is the case with many things, it can also be effectively weaponized to horrific effect, whether intentionally or simply institutionally.

Fair warning: The linked video is in depth, and at times a difficult watch, but well worth anyone's time. While it highlights the UK experience and is trans focused - it also applies to the UK's approach to healthcare in general, and more broadly - large institutions/organizations everywhere.

 

[demultiplexer]

OK, so, I'm going to talk out of place here and chime in on the 'but is that kid really trans?'-question and say:

You'll know if you're trans. Being trans is so fundamentally different from normal play and other aspects of identity. Literally every trans content creator you're going to find will say this. I've never heard trans-ness being a wishy-washy vague feeling inside that requires deep philosophical talks with 10-year university degree professionals for years on end to determine if they're trans.

Of course, if the kid is 4 years old, hell even at 7, it's going to be harder to determine for sure that those feelings are 'the being trans' or something else. I'm not disputing this takes counseling and effort.

Just to push back on some people here who seem to be aligning themselves with a common anti-trans talking point. I'm not accusing you of doing anything nefarious, just... know that this is a talking point that is often weaponized to deny trans people healthcare.

 

[Megalodon]

Just to push back on some people here who seem to be aligning themselves with a common anti-trans talking point. I'm not accusing you of doing anything nefarious, just... know that this is a talking point that is often weaponized to deny trans people healthcare.

Yup. One of the big anti-trans strategies advancing at a state level is to dump the informed consent standard of care, to force a bunch of additional steps that have no evidence-based support. It's designed with the specific goal of seeming superficially reasonable to people that aren't actively malicious but still systematically denying care.