Is Firefox OK?

Mozilla’s privacy-heavy browser is flatlining but still crucial to future of the web.

Read the whole story

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

I understand the steady decline until this point, but I'm surprised there wasn't a bigger dip at this point. FF hit a reset point essentially became a different browser. It was a natural point to reevaluate if you wanted an alternative.

Sync, bookmarks, distrust of Google, and just plain cussedness. A combination of inertia, suspicion, and some people really do support what Mozilla is trying to do for the Web in all aspects except dumbing down their own browser.

 

[malor]

Right... they keep chasing imaginary customers, instead of the ones they actually have.

 

[ScifiGeek]

I understand the steady decline until this point, but I'm surprised there wasn't a bigger dip at this point. FF hit a reset point essentially became a different browser. It was a natural point to reevaluate if you wanted an alternative.

Sync, bookmarks, distrust of Google, and just plain cussedness. A combination of inertia, suspicion, and some people really do support what Mozilla is trying to do for the Web in all aspects except dumbing down their own browser.

But they also kept steadily losing after that point as well. So those things are keeping users either. Again the only surprise is that there was a blip around the big change.

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

I understand the steady decline until this point, but I'm surprised there wasn't a bigger dip at this point. FF hit a reset point essentially became a different browser. It was a natural point to reevaluate if you wanted an alternative.

Sync, bookmarks, distrust of Google, and just plain cussedness. A combination of inertia, suspicion, and some people really do support what Mozilla is trying to do for the Web in all aspects except dumbing down their own browser.

But they also kept steadily losing after that point as well. So those things are keeping users either. Again the only surprise is that there was a blip around the big change.

I'd argue those are the ONLY things keeping users. It's not enough to stop the erosion, but without the riverbank would be gone already.

 

[Oak]

He's now at Brave, the subscription-based Chromium-based browser. I see that lately he's been creating crypto currencies (at least one specifically for Brave)...

I guess that's why Vivaldi's home page has a blurb about why cryptocurrency is bad and calling them "opportunities" is bad and therefore they won't be part of the browser. I wondered about that. It seemed an oddly specific criticism to have on a browser web page.

Now I know.

Vivaldi's head was pretty upfront about why he was addressing it. It's a browser that from the start set out to bake in a lot of extra capabilities, following the tradition of old pre-Chromium (Presto) Opera (which the head and many of the team came from, not liking the direction Opera was heading in). So it's a feature that I'm sure many have asked for, given that not only Brave but also Opera sport crypto-wallets.

Yet, despite all the negatives, there will still be those who opt to participate. And for those who end up owning some crypto tokens that they’ll need to manage, the browser might seem a logical place to keep track of it all. Indeed, some of our competitors have done just that and now provide crypto-wallets in the browser.

Since Vivaldi is all about offering choices and customizability, you might expect us to include this functionality, as well. But in good conscience, we cannot.

https://vivaldi.com/blog/why-vivaldi-wi ... thinkcoin/

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

I would like to point out that SeaMonkey is still being updated. It's the old "Internet Suite" that split from Mozilla but kept things like the IRC chat and email client integration. It's based on Firefox and Thunderbird code with some officially adopted extensions. I believe it's based on Firefox ESR versions.

The major downside is no official uBlock Origin support. I believe there's a "for legacy Firefox" version here: https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock-for-firefox-legacy/releases

 

[WhiskersWithClaws]

Last week, I downloaded Brave for a test run (again). I tried using it last year, but felt it needed further updates to be a replacement.

Aside from a few issues, so far, it's looking good I'll be switching.

When Mitchell Baker stepped back into the CEO role, things started to change. For the worse, in my opinion.

On the front, it seems like Firefox is still trying to be that "safe" browser. On the rear, she's making deals with companies I find shady, the latest being Facebook.

Her salary has exploded, and it's troubling for someone who is supposed to chair for a better and more open internet.

You cannot proclaim a safe browser while partnering with companies set out to destroy it.

I'm also disappointed each new update seems to ruin a UI or implements another piece of bloatware.

The final straw is seeing more of the about:config settings being buried into the executable, leaving no ability to customize the browser for specific features.

The latter is the most troubling for me, given it's my first task in updating the about:config when a new major release installs and wipes clean the previous due to incompatibility.

Now, it seems I'm bugged hourly with a notice of a new update.

It also doesn't hurt many of the original Firefox team now works behind Brave.

Unfortunately, it has no about:config to modify at this time, but given how much better I feel about the browser, I'm willing to compromise.

If Baker reads the comments in this site, hopefully she'll respond to the question: "WTF you doing, girl?"

It shouldn't be any surprise people are leaving the one-great browser, if I'm to be frank.

 

[VividVerism]

Right... they keep chasing imaginary customers, instead of the ones they actually have.

Yes, because never gaining another customer ever again, never appealing to people who don't already use the browser, is an EXCELLENT way to grow browser share.

People AREN'T SWITCHING TO FIREFOX right now. They weren't back in 2015, 2016, or 2017 when the XUL decision would have been relevant. If Mozilla keeps doing the same thing and changes nothing, then AT BEST they may stop losing more users and continue to slowly lose browser share as more people come online and older users die off or leave despite the browser not breaking anything.

 

[gosand]

I use Firefox on all of my devices. No issues at all with performance or usability.

Firefox has to continue, it's an open source staple! As a linux user, I've tried pretty much everything out there with very limited success. Aside from a few years using palemoon (an offshoot of FF) after the ui and performance of ff became abysmal, I've been using FF since the beginning. They change the internet! Anyone else remember using mosaic and Netscape? I can only hope ff can continue despite the challenges they are facing. :|

 

[malor]

Right... they keep chasing imaginary customers, instead of the ones they actually have.

Yes, because never gaining another customer ever again, never appealing to people who don't already use the browser, is an EXCELLENT way to grow browser share.

People AREN'T SWITCHING TO FIREFOX right now. They weren't back in 2015, 2016, or 2017 when the XUL decision would have been relevant. If Mozilla keeps doing the same thing and changes nothing, then AT BEST they may stop losing more users and continue to slowly lose browser share as more people come online and older users die off or leave despite the browser not breaking anything.

Pissing off your existing customers while chasing imaginary ones is how you go from 20% market share to 2%.

Mozilla has been doing exactly what you prescribe, and look how well that's working for them.

 

[Deleted member 180124]

I use Firefox mobile (not Focus). My big complaint is the same complaint I have about Windows, Android, iOS, and most other software actually. Too many UI changes, too often. I'm not against change: I loved Win 8 right away. I'm against making and undoing changes willy-nilly, and never giving us a choice in what works best for us. How much bloat would that really be, letting us like make Start bigger (full screen) in 11?

It took ages for the new extension catalog to grow, but it's mostly there now.

I've been trying to switch to Firefox for Android for years, but it's broken on all Pixel phones. There is a bug in the font scaling code that only seems to affect Pixels. It got half fixed last year but is still bad enough that it makes Firefox unusable on those devices.

I have submitted bug reports and even tried to debug the issue myself. It's taken years to get this half fix and I've basically given up.

I use Firefox almost exclusively on my Pixel 5, and I have since I bought it over a year ago, and I have no idea what you're talking about.

Try setting the font size under accessibility. A lot of websites will break.

 

[jasonekratz]

Last week, I downloaded Brave for a test run (again). I tried using it last year, but felt it needed further updates to be a replacement.

Aside from a few issues, so far, it's looking good I'll be switching.

When Mitchell Baker stepped back into the CEO role, things started to change. For the worse, in my opinion.

On the front, it seems like Firefox is still trying to be that "safe" browser. On the rear, she's making deals with companies I find shady, the latest being Facebook.

What deal is that exactly? Surely you're not talking about this https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/pri ... vertising/

Thats not a "deal". Its a proposal to anonymize ads while still making them useful to the platform. Thats how things should have been from day one. The shortsightedness of people on this really is amazing.

You cannot proclaim a safe browser while partnering with companies set out to destroy it.

When you don't look at things in a childish manner, and look at Mozilla's recent history re: privacy, tracking, and Facebook sure you can. Its the whole fucking point.

I'm also disappointed each new update seems to ruin a UI or implements another piece of bloatware.

Care to share a piece of bloatware in each of the last 5 releases of Firefox? Should be easy right because they're in "each new update"?

Now, it seems I'm bugged hourly with a notice of a new update.

No you're not. Nobody is. They don't release "hourly".

Unfortunately, it has no about:config to modify at this time, but given how much better I feel about the browser, I'm willing to compromise.

So wait...the guy just complaining about this same problem supposedly in Firefox now doesn't have a problem with no about:config at all in Brave. Hmmm....

 

[mausium]

Last week, I downloaded Brave for a test run (again). I tried using it last year, but felt it needed further updates to be a replacement.

Aside from a few issues, so far, it's looking good I'll be switching.

When Mitchell Baker stepped back into the CEO role, things started to change. For the worse, in my opinion.

On the front, it seems like Firefox is still trying to be that "safe" browser. On the rear, she's making deals with companies I find shady, the latest being Facebook.

Her salary has exploded, and it's troubling for someone who is supposed to chair for a better and more open internet.

You cannot proclaim a safe browser while partnering with companies set out to destroy it.

I'm also disappointed each new update seems to ruin a UI or implements another piece of bloatware.

The final straw is seeing more of the about:config settings being buried into the executable, leaving no ability to customize the browser for specific features.

The latter is the most troubling for me, given it's my first task in updating the about:config when a new major release installs and wipes clean the previous due to incompatibility.

Now, it seems I'm bugged hourly with a notice of a new update.

It also doesn't hurt many of the original Firefox team now works behind Brave.

Unfortunately, it has no about:config to modify at this time, but given how much better I feel about the browser, I'm willing to compromise.

If Baker reads the comments in this site, hopefully she'll respond to the question: "WTF you doing, girl?"

It shouldn't be any surprise people are leaving the one-great browser, if I'm to be frank.

There's still no reason to *trust* Brave after their previous affiliate link adding schemes, "collecting donations" for open source developers without their consent or awareness and their greater crypto token plans.

They have rightly earned some ill will in the process.

 

[DonsAcsher]

I use Firefox and want to keep using it but the UI changes increasingly make it hard to love. Last year the tab bar was redesigned in a way that actually makes it hard (certainly on Linux) to identify where each tab begins and ends, especially when there are a lot of tabs. It's certainly not a good move from an accessibility perspective. Random UI changes don't suddenly make your browser more "modern".

Here, hopefully that helps.

https://www.userchrome.org/firefox-89-s ... on-ui.html

 

[tjukken]

I use Firefox and want to keep using it but the UI changes increasingly make it hard to love. Last year the tab bar was redesigned in a way that actually makes it hard (certainly on Linux) to identify where each tab begins and ends, especially when there are a lot of tabs. It's certainly not a good move from an accessibility perspective. Random UI changes don't suddenly make your browser more "modern".

Here, hopefully that helps.

https://www.userchrome.org/firefox-89-s ... on-ui.html

If this is what it takes to make a browser agreeable, I think there's a deeper problem with it..

 

[ScifiGeek]

I use Firefox and want to keep using it but the UI changes increasingly make it hard to love. Last year the tab bar was redesigned in a way that actually makes it hard (certainly on Linux) to identify where each tab begins and ends, especially when there are a lot of tabs. It's certainly not a good move from an accessibility perspective. Random UI changes don't suddenly make your browser more "modern".

Here, hopefully that helps.

https://www.userchrome.org/firefox-89-s ... on-ui.html

I don't think it does. It mentions using themes, but themes are meaningless now. They only change colors, not tab shapes or anything else.

 

[bahromvk]

To be precise:

* XUL abandoned and with it thousands of powerful extensions (a ton of them have never been reimplemented)
* UI has been changed great many times with the last iteration probably the most horrible one (considering all the white space, huge fonts, gray nondescript icons) - on Reddit people were really unhappy
* Features removed
* Full themes support removed
* Browser customization shrunk
* Only a couple of years ago Firefox stopped leaking RAM like crazy
* Over the past decade most significant changes have been made behind closed doors or in bugzilla where only Mozilla employees are allowed to opine.

And here's their last feat:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30375640

Yeah, it's all "because of" Google Chrome. Really. Except Mozilla has actively been shooting themselves in the foot for the past decade.

Edit: have fun.

Long time and still current Firefox user here (on a Mac). I agree with a lot of your points. I hated when FF abandoned XUL and a lot of great extensions became impossible. Extensions were and still are a big part why i use FF. I also admit that I hated the recent UI changes to such an extent that I spent a long time learning how to customize the UI to my liking using userChrome.css. This was rather painful as I am not a programmer. I imagine vast majority of users would not bother.

All that said I am still on FF. Primarily because of extensions some of which don't exist in Chrome and Safari. I also don't trust Google on privacy.

 

[ScifiGeek]

All that said I am still on FF. Primarily because of extensions some of which don't exist in Chrome and Safari. I also don't trust Google on privacy.

You don't have to get a chrome based browser from Google though. Vivaldi is a very nice privacy focused browser from a I team that has never given reason to distrust them.

 

[1FX]

All that said I am still on FF. Primarily because of extensions some of which don't exist in Chrome and Safari. I also don't trust Google on privacy.

You don't have to get a chrome based browser from Google though. Vivaldi is a very nice privacy focused browser from a I team that has never given reason to distrust them.

That doesn't help web standards stay open and accessible.

 

[tjukken]

All that said I am still on FF. Primarily because of extensions some of which don't exist in Chrome and Safari. I also don't trust Google on privacy.

You don't have to get a chrome based browser from Google though. Vivaldi is a very nice privacy focused browser from a I team that has never given reason to distrust them.

That doesn't help web standards stay open and accessible.

Firefox dying doesn't help either, but Mozilla seems hellbent on making it happen.

 

[ScifiGeek]

All that said I am still on FF. Primarily because of extensions some of which don't exist in Chrome and Safari. I also don't trust Google on privacy.

You don't have to get a chrome based browser from Google though. Vivaldi is a very nice privacy focused browser from a I team that has never given reason to distrust them.

That doesn't help web standards stay open and accessible.

So users should keep using Firefox, even if they don't like it, so that firefox keeps getting support??

If a products survival depends on logic like that, then it's clearly doomed.

 

[1FX]

All that said I am still on FF. Primarily because of extensions some of which don't exist in Chrome and Safari. I also don't trust Google on privacy.

You don't have to get a chrome based browser from Google though. Vivaldi is a very nice privacy focused browser from a I team that has never given reason to distrust them.

That doesn't help web standards stay open and accessible.

So users should keep using Firefox, even if they don't like it, so that firefox keeps getting support??

If a products survival depends on logic like that, then it's clearly doomed.

Because clearly everyone who uses Firefox dislikes it.

 

[ScifiGeek]

All that said I am still on FF. Primarily because of extensions some of which don't exist in Chrome and Safari. I also don't trust Google on privacy.

You don't have to get a chrome based browser from Google though. Vivaldi is a very nice privacy focused browser from a I team that has never given reason to distrust them.

That doesn't help web standards stay open and accessible.

So users should keep using Firefox, even if they don't like it, so that firefox keeps getting support??

If a products survival depends on logic like that, then it's clearly doomed.

Because clearly everyone who uses Firefox dislikes it.

No because you suggest staying just to prop up support.

Continuing to bleed users, suggest even many remaining are not that happy.

 

[1FX]

All that said I am still on FF. Primarily because of extensions some of which don't exist in Chrome and Safari. I also don't trust Google on privacy.

You don't have to get a chrome based browser from Google though. Vivaldi is a very nice privacy focused browser from a I team that has never given reason to distrust them.

That doesn't help web standards stay open and accessible.

So users should keep using Firefox, even if they don't like it, so that firefox keeps getting support??

If a products survival depends on logic like that, then it's clearly doomed.

Because clearly everyone who uses Firefox dislikes it.

No because you suggest staying just to prop up support.

Continuing to bleed users, suggest even many remaining are not that happy.

You can suggest that I suppose. I am personally happy with Firefox.

 

[Dougal666]

I use Firefox and want to keep using it but the UI changes increasingly make it hard to love. Last year the tab bar was redesigned in a way that actually makes it hard (certainly on Linux) to identify where each tab begins and ends, especially when there are a lot of tabs. It's certainly not a good move from an accessibility perspective. Random UI changes don't suddenly make your browser more "modern".

Every time they do that I go to google and search for instructions how to revert to the old look/behavior...
https://www.userchrome.org/firefox-89-s ... #tabstyler