Why free speech advocates oppose a law to battle sex trafficking

The 1996 law Section 230 is widely seen as a foundation of the Internet economy.

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[Entkoffeiniert]

Happysin[/url]":35xcwh5f]

While estimates have a broad range, roughly 1m people a year are victims of sex slavery and human trafficking.

"a broad range", and combining sex slavery and human trafficking (both ill-defined). I don't think that's sufficient data to build a law on.

 

[JPan]

Entkoffeiniert[/url]":35upi4n1]

Happysin[/url]":35upi4n1]

While estimates have a broad range, roughly 1m people a year are victims of sex slavery and human trafficking.

"a broad range", and combining sex slavery and human trafficking (both ill-defined). I don't think that's sufficient data to build a law on.

And how many of them are in Europe and the US? Don't get me wrong we need to do something against the widespread sexual exploitation of women for example in Africa as well but by and large that means getting these states stable.

 

[notnotknot]

Legal prostitution is just like legal drugs. Dramatically preferable to the alternative. You will never stop drug use or prostitution, but you can manage their risk through regulation.

I agree that prostitution between 2 willing and consenting adults should be legal, but there
is a huge sex/human trafficking industry that is exploiting women, children and even men, and
in those cases where the poster does not get sloppy and give out hints of the illegal and life
destroying nature of their activities, you don't know if the prostitute you are getting is being
forced into it or not.

Law enforcement really needs to scan these ads and be aggressive in pursuing the people
behind these ads. One of these trafficking ring victims could be your son or daughter someday.

If you go to a major tansportation hub, such as an airport or a rail station, you will usually see
a sign talking about human trafficking and what to look out for in a potential victim.

No it is not a huge industry yes pedophiles & people who force women into sex work is disgusting and evil but it's way more rampant in the higher echelons of society. Sophisticated networks aren't using Backpage. Stupid crack & meth heads do.

More Prostitutes use Instagram, snap chat, Facebook, Gmail.

Google an empirical study on prostitution by the University of Chicago for a fun fact.

A prostitute is more likely to be RAPED by a cop the arrested by one. It's not like a consenual choice at that point.

Ever hear of a male prostitution sting? Wonder why that's not a priority plenty of abused boy and posts going in in those sections. I guess you don't get the benefits of getting to extort & fuck the people you arrest huh?

See stings at the Ritz or 4 star hotels? Hmmmmm bet more kids getting exploited at 4-5 star hotels than the 40$ notels

It's all fear mongering and hypocrisy at the highest level. Low hanging fruit let's post an ad, all 3 holes $30 and watch all the idiots show up to the motel 6 almost all strung out so back at it as soon as released no kids helped whatsoever

If Uber can literally pay an adult $2 in 2017 to drive 1-5 miles pick up 100-400# of cargo & deliver it 1-5 miles & be considered legal but a woman can't even give a man a handshake without having to be extorted by public servants there's a serious problem.

You can sell your body to some evil fucking mother earth raping corporation for 60+ years and get rewarded by getting your pension retirement stolen or raised by the government ruin your back, legs, hips, wrists or go suck dick for 3-5 years & retire with propery assets & investments you own & you're a fucking criminal

Give me a fuckin break.

Every single "model" on Instagram twitter Facebook or snap chat will let you paint her face for the right Amazon wish list gift they going after Amazon? Ok not every 90%

10 years ago you could buy Molly's plant food in amazon 1-100 at a time not for human consumption it was basically exctasy. You don't think that still goes on? Buy the code products get cocaine. Amazon, credit card companies, square, PayPal, post office all moving people & Coco yo

 

[Lagrange]

Ah yes America.

Want a gun? Under no circumstances do we prevent gun ownership or the waving around of your gun in public. Want to kill? Just claim you were standing your ground.

Want to fuck? Fuck you, its arrest time, public shaming, and maybe a permanent sex offender registry.

Does this make sense? No, this does not make sense. If Chewbaka, an 8 foot tall Wookie, lives with 3 foot tall Ewoks, then you must acquit.

It is time legal prostitution spread out from Nevada. Cops would be forced to stop oppressing women and a lot of wasted resources from the war on women would be freed up for a legitimate war on child molesters. Hell maybe they would start to notice catholic priests fucking little children and do something about it instead of needing newspapers to force them to do it.

Paid rape is a vast human rights violation, perpetrated by entitled, predatory men.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/ ... usa.gender

http://prostitutionresearch.com/

How is it rape when two people agree upon a transaction for the supply of sex? There's consent from the outset so it can't be rape. Don't try and pretend that anyone who is a sex worker must by definition be coerced. That's just projecting your own anti-sex views onto others.

The reality is that sex work can offer the otherwise unskilled an incredibly lucrative source of income. If your choice is cleaning toilets for minimum wage or sleeping with people for $300/hr then it's hardly a bad choice to opt for the latter. You're earning more than a corporate lawyer without the enormous cost of the latter's training and education, and without needing 20 years experience in the job. How is a well-paid prostitute a victim when someone cleaning up piss, shit, and vomit in nightclub toilets is not?

Also, what do you think about women who pay for sex or men who buy sex from other men? Where do sugar daddies and rich middle aged women with 'boyfriends' half their age fit into this? Sex work is a spectrum and a lot of the time it looks more like the client who is getting exploited.

 

[rm0659]

good grief, backpage sounds like the ideal enforcement tool!

1) trafficker advertises underage subject
2) cops answer ad, set up meeting
3) trafficker meets cop to consummate deal
4) cop arrests trafficker with neat chain of evidence in hand
5) underage subject is liberated

could there be a better way to fight this sort of crime?

instead we have cops impersonating traffickers and the dubious entrapment cases they generate. seriously, has nobody figured out that they should *answer* the ads instead of *placing* the ads?

 

[Woolfe]

Haven't read all 4 pages, so someone may have already suggested this.

But create a task force, and smash every single ad suggestive of an offer for sex on Backpage.
Massive sting operation.
If a cop turned up to every single ad. I can guarantee you that Backpage would very quickly stop being a source for this sort of thing.

 

[Andara]

But create a task force, and smash every single ad suggestive of an offer for sex on Backpage.

Law enforcement already use the site to catch traffickers and they fear that if it gets taken down, their jobs will become that much more difficult.

 

[thatanonymouscoward]

But create a task force, and smash every single ad suggestive of an offer for sex on Backpage.

Law enforcement already use the site to catch traffickers and they fear that if it gets taken down, their jobs will become that much more difficult.

While the police hand runs stings the political hand wants soundbites & to look like they are doing something to save the world.
Getting the headlines matters more than actually fixing the problem.

There are questions about how bad the sex trafficking really is, much of it is based on extrapolations rather than complete facts. Victims are often pressured to respond in the right way or else when speaking about what happened. We're here to rescue you, but if you don't like how we did it because you aren't the victim we claim you are, we'll destroy your life with jail time.

It's far to easy to say BackPage is at fault for everything. They have money & aren't giving into the pressure being applied by politicians & those who want publicity to boost their career. They've been under attack for a while, and the public is lead to be outraged at the company daring to protect itself from attack.

We need to admit there is a thriving sex trade in America. That if 2 consenting adults wish to do business, we shouldn't be wasting time & resources hassling them. Politicians denounce it while the hookers around the conventions reported big jumps in business.

The government is still trying to say that weed will end the world if people use it, treating it like one of the most dangerous things ever... and none of the doom prophecies happened in the states where it has been legalized. Perhaps its time to admit to the lessons of prohibition, that it doesn't actually work & makes things worse. Sex work by consenting adults isn't a horrible scourge we need to waste any time or resources on. If you disagree, don't use the services.

 

[Deleted member 14629]

Happysin[/url]":1mbnwr39]

While estimates have a broad range, roughly 1m people a year are victims of sex slavery and human trafficking.

"a broad range", and combining sex slavery and human trafficking (both ill-defined). I don't think that's sufficient data to build a law on.

Even taking the absolute most conservative estimates of sex slavery alone, it's worse than all the problems I was comparing it to.

 

[rm0659]

But create a task force, and smash every single ad suggestive of an offer for sex on Backpage.

Law enforcement already use the site to catch traffickers and they fear that if it gets taken down, their jobs will become that much more difficult.

sorry, but that's an absurd stance to take. do the police not investigate some bank robberies because then it'd be harder to catch bank robbers?

(ok, i admit they do this with speed traps, but those are more a case of the cops acting as tax collectors than safety officers. really, when was the last time you saw a speed trap in a place where speed 10mph over the posted limit was actually dangerous?)

 

[slymenstra hymen]

good grief, backpage sounds like the ideal enforcement tool!

1) trafficker advertises underage subject
2) cops answer ad, set up meeting
3) trafficker meets cop to consummate deal
4) cop arrests trafficker with neat chain of evidence in hand
5) underage subject is liberated

could there be a better way to fight this sort of crime?

instead we have cops impersonating traffickers and the dubious entrapment cases they generate. seriously, has nobody figured out that they should *answer* the ads instead of *placing* the ads?

The issues with 1 is the ads use code words so it's hard to decipher, Backpage edits ads to remove banned code words like "lolita" but still posts the ad and they have a group of under trained moderators.


2-5 does happen. I Am Jane Doe is a recent doco which showed some LEO's are using BP to find trafficked girls, some families may never have seen their children again if not for images posted to BP. BP could always work closer with LEO's but since their revenue is in part from people selling illegal sexual services they really don't want them too close.

It's a tough situation, BP generates most of its money from adult ads and a lot of those ads are for illegal services. Some here have posited that legalised prostitution would solve the problem but it didn't here in Australia where there's still trafficking and illegal prostitution is still big. With how the legalisation of weed is going down in the US I don't see prostitution fairing much better, sure it might move the needle a bit but it wont solve the underlying problems.

 

[Da Truff]

"think of the children" is rarely about the children. It is usually just a good excuse to take away someone else's freedom. In this case, it is neoconservatives and the religious right wanting to further criminalize are marginalize sex workers and the supporting industries.

I don't belive that child sex traffficking is such a massive problem in the United States that I am willing to give up Freedom of Speech for something that may or may not have any impact on child sex trafficking anway.

The best way to minimize child sex trafficking is national legalization of sex work.

Many more children in the U.S. are injured and killed by guns than are victimized by child sex trafficking. Are these same people demanding legislation to protect children from gun violence?

 

[blacke]

But create a task force, and smash every single ad suggestive of an offer for sex on Backpage.

Law enforcement already use the site to catch traffickers and they fear that if it gets taken down, their jobs will become that much more difficult.

sorry, but that's an absurd stance to take. do the police not investigate some bank robberies because then it'd be harder to catch bank robbers?

(ok, i admit they do this with speed traps, but those are more a case of the cops acting as tax collectors than safety officers. really, when was the last time you saw a speed trap in a place where speed 10mph over the posted limit was actually dangerous?)

Bad analogy.

This wouldn't be so much about the robberies but rather the banks themselves, and forcefully shutting down those banks that have too many robberies.

 

[O/Siris]

Free speech is a human issue.

Right now companies are given blanket protection against prosecution due to people making illegal use of their site. The only effect that has on free speech is that it prevents people from using their free speech to sue those companies. If the only goal is really freer speech then we should get rid of Section 230.

I fail to see how free speech is protected by removing this protection. The actual speakers are open to action, including warrants to get their identifying information from these forum operators.

 

[thatanonymouscoward]

@Name withheld - Stop, take a breath. (and please turn off the caps lock)

Numerous people here in the replies have supported the idea that sex work by consenting people isn't a problem.
You are busy screaming at people who think this law is stupid, and directing anger at people who support you is a good way to lose support.

We think people who pimp out children are evil & need to be stopped, but rather than use a 1 size magically fixes the whole problem solution (that won't come close to doing what they want it to) we need real solutions.

@slymenstra hymen - "BP could always work closer with LEO's but since their revenue is in part from people selling illegal sexual services they really don't want them too close."

Are you willing to accept that several grandstanding LEO's have gone out of their way to harm BP's business to get headlines? If you had a "friend" who wants you to help them but is telling everyone else in town you're a horrible person... would you keep helping?
BP is an advertising platform, they are not selling illegal sexual services themselves.
This law is trying to make BP responsible for the actions of 3rd parties because they were called bad guys with money. They want to open the door to BP paying out on these claims, because BP has money. Funny how there is actually a law that keeps parents of children murdered in gun violence from suing gun makers... the gun makers make the weapons, shouldn't they be responsible?? No? So why is BP responsible for the actions of some pimps but gun makers protected from the actions of some of their users?

Sex trafficking is the latest moral panic that we have to solve, now now now.
We need to pass stupid pointless laws so everyone can feel we fixed the problem.
We told kids to just say no to drugs... we have a huge drug epidemic.
We told people that booze was the devils juice... we banned it and killed people with poison to make the point... that didn't work out.
We still have "blue laws" on the books in some places...because some moral people screamed we HAD TO STOP X... they are pointless impositions to appease some peoples moral requirements being inflicted upon others.
We need to stop trying to pretend that some peoples morals are the only line that everyone should have to live up to. If you think booze is the devils juice, don't drink. If you think sex work is wrong, don't hire hookers.

Consenting adults engaging in sex work should be legal. Regulate it, tax it, test it. Remove them from the haystack of "bad people" we have to weed through to find actual criminals.

 

[Andara]

But create a task force, and smash every single ad suggestive of an offer for sex on Backpage.

Law enforcement already use the site to catch traffickers and they fear that if it gets taken down, their jobs will become that much more difficult.

sorry, but that's an absurd stance to take. do the police not investigate some bank robberies because then it'd be harder to catch bank robbers?

(ok, i admit they do this with speed traps, but those are more a case of the cops acting as tax collectors than safety officers. really, when was the last time you saw a speed trap in a place where speed 10mph over the posted limit was actually dangerous?)

1) Your analogy is the absurd thing. As it stands, Backpage is only possibly doing something illegal (they've yet to be proven to be doing so, at the very least) and the police use it as either a honeypot or for performing stings, both of which are of more use than shutting down the site.

2) I see speed traps at the local school zones pretty much regularly.

Some here have posited that legalised prostitution would solve the problem but it didn't here in Australia where there's still trafficking and illegal prostitution is still big. With how the legalisation of weed is going down in the US I don't see prostitution fairing much better, sure it might move the needle a bit but it wont solve the underlying problems.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the better.

Moving the needle at all in regards to human trafficking is to be desired.

Plus, having the sex trade be illegal is just stupid puritan uptight bullshit. You can literally kill yourself working a physical job that also causes great harm, but trade a little bit of physical pleasure for some cash, and suddenly it's the worst thing ever.

Also, soliciting and advertising is still illegal in Australia, so, really, they've kind of half-assed it. A bit like what some states have done with regards to marijuana; a very apt comparison, tho at least dispensaries get to advertise. Honestly, how is a brothel supposed to operate if nobody knows that it's a brothel? While it has been decriminalized, they've basically made it as difficult as possible for sex workers to actually, you know, get any work, so it's still driven underground, allowing crime around it to continue to flourish. And, yet, the needle has still been moved and society hasn't collapsed, so while it's not a very good solution, at least it's a step in the right direction.

 

[slymenstra hymen]

Some here have posited that legalised prostitution would solve the problem but it didn't here in Australia where there's still trafficking and illegal prostitution is still big. With how the legalisation of weed is going down in the US I don't see prostitution fairing much better, sure it might move the needle a bit but it wont solve the underlying problems.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the better.

Moving the needle at all in regards to human trafficking is to be desired.

Plus, having the sex trade be illegal is just stupid puritan uptight bullshit. You can literally kill yourself working a physical job that also causes great harm, but trade a little bit of physical pleasure for some cash, and suddenly it's the worst thing ever.

Also, soliciting and advertising is still illegal in Australia, so, really, they've kind of half-assed it. A bit like what some states have done with regards to marijuana; a very apt comparison, tho at least dispensaries get to advertise. Honestly, how is a brothel supposed to operate if nobody knows that it's a brothel? While it has been decriminalized, they've basically made it as difficult as possible for sex workers to actually, you know, get any work, so it's still driven underground, allowing crime around it to continue to flourish. And, yet, the needle has still been moved and society hasn't collapsed, so while it's not a very good solution, at least it's a step in the right direction.

I'm all for a legalised sex trade and it should happen regardless of human trafficking. When 90% of the prostitution is of the illegal/unregulated variety though, which it is in some Au states, it's doubtful it has any effect on trafficking.

 

[rm0659]

But create a task force, and smash every single ad suggestive of an offer for sex on Backpage.

Law enforcement already use the site to catch traffickers and they fear that if it gets taken down, their jobs will become that much more difficult.

sorry, but that's an absurd stance to take. do the police not investigate some bank robberies because then it'd be harder to catch bank robbers?

(ok, i admit they do this with speed traps, but those are more a case of the cops acting as tax collectors than safety officers. really, when was the last time you saw a speed trap in a place where speed 10mph over the posted limit was actually dangerous?)

Bad analogy.

This wouldn't be so much about the robberies but rather the banks themselves, and forcefully shutting down those banks that have too many robberies.

and that is exactly what i'm saying and that they're trying to do: shut down the web sites/banks to stop solicitation/robberies

web sites = banks
traffickers = bank robbers
solicitation = robberies

but robbers gonna rob and solicitors gonna solicit, shutting down the sites/banks won't change that a bit.

 

[blacke]

But create a task force, and smash every single ad suggestive of an offer for sex on Backpage.

Law enforcement already use the site to catch traffickers and they fear that if it gets taken down, their jobs will become that much more difficult.

sorry, but that's an absurd stance to take. do the police not investigate some bank robberies because then it'd be harder to catch bank robbers?

(ok, i admit they do this with speed traps, but those are more a case of the cops acting as tax collectors than safety officers. really, when was the last time you saw a speed trap in a place where speed 10mph over the posted limit was actually dangerous?)

Bad analogy.

This wouldn't be so much about the robberies but rather the banks themselves, and forcefully shutting down those banks that have too many robberies.

and that is exactly what i'm saying and that they're trying to do: shut down the web sites/banks to stop solicitation/robberies

web sites = banks
traffickers = bank robbers
solicitation = robberies

but robbers gonna rob and solicitors gonna solicit, shutting down the sites/banks won't change that a bit.

Your previous comment made it sound like you equated the sites with the robberies, not the bank itself. Either that or you expressed yourself badly.

The problem with shutting down the more open sites is that it gets harder to actually find all the solicitations in the first place, and thus harder to investigate and act on them. It also ads to the problem of "out of sight, out of mind" in that since it's now not done "out in the open" politicians can claim that they have solved the problem while actually having done jack shit about it.

The one you responded to said nothing about not investigating every robbery, just that if all cash trading moved under ground then it would most likely become much harder to police. That is a legit concern for law enforcement.

 

[Rookie_MIB]

Of course, the obvious answer is to simply legalize and regulate prostitution in general. If a woman has a service she wants to offer, she can get licensed, tested regularly for STDs, verified for her age, and of course since she's putting herself in the 'market', she's generally going to be considered a willing participant and not a sex slave.

Agencies who provide services could likewise be regulated, licensed, subject to regulations and inspections, hold records for testing, signed contracts for the girls who work for them, verified documents proving age etc.

Men would be happier. Women would be happier. State and federal agencies would get more money from taxing since income can then be 'over the table', and licensing fees. Crime would go down as these acts wouldn't be illegal anymore. Police and law enforcement could then go after real criminals.

Sounds like win/win. Of course, it'll never happen because the religious right would scream bloody murder.