Ukraine is game to you? Part deux.

[Case]

Somehow all of this is tied to Israel according to a close relative who stays with us, who answered my puzzled look by saying "it's true, my pastor is talking about it."

It all comes back to the chosen people, and probably to End Times but I don't care to dip into the crazy anymore. This is the Evangelical mind that is a horrifyingly-large chunk of this country.

I caught a bit of her church videos in passing (of course earbuds are too out there for a reasonable person to use!) and it was Trump this, Putin that, and "the Progressive and Liberal mind seizes up in a crisis like this".

 

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Who'd have thought we'd ever see a brazen attack by a superpower using blatantly false pretenses, bombing cities in a gaudy display of "shock and awe". Too bad the US and allies blew their collective wad on outrage over such a thing, considering it did the very same thing less than two decades ago.

 

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I had not realized he was still alive, but Pat Roberston specially came out of retirement (and one imagines halfway into the grave) to let us know that Putin Is Fulfilling Biblical Prophecy by claiming, "[Putin] is being compelled by God" to invade Ukraine in preparation for a massive End Times invasion of Israel"

World War Omega it is.

Hearing (despite my best efforts not to) similar garbage from whatever charlatans my mom (an Evangelical, albeit not as backwards as the rest of her family) listens to.

Everything always relates to Israel and/or End Times (tm). I had no idea that Evangelicals had such a massive hard-on for Isreal but boy they do. My mom had no interest her whole life in ever visiting any country outside the US--proudly proclaiming everything she needed to see was right here in the USA--but did so in her 70s as part of a trip to Israel.

 

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Breaking eggs to make omelettes.
I'm a Western European, speak a couple of other languages to my own well, others not so. I have experience of the political and business systems prevalent in the northern hemisphere(Japan excluded)
I don't care about Kiev and Ukraine. I'm not anticipating nuclear war, so I'm happy to see the hypocracy of western governments being outlined in full (though of course I wouldn't expect any media to point this out)
Image a picture here of an american airstrike on an Iraqi school, or likewise from the saudis on a Yemeni hospital.

While this is a truthful accusation, much to mine and others chagrin, you can still be outraged on the Ukrainian peoples' part and for the Russian conscripts who had no idea what their government was intending. As an American, (with no strong nationalistic bent) I hate that our populace has pursued war for false reasons many times and am ashamed that we can't seem to recognize and learn from our faults as country in that and other respects. Yet, to me, that is what makes this conflict even more horrendous to my psyche as an American.. In such as this is a conflict that has a clear, illegal aggression, and yet the West is doing too little, in my mind, to stand up for what is right. I say that recognizing the risk of nuclear confrontation, as I believe a clear, strong response now will help the future world avoid further conflicts of this sort.

Anyway, my two cents rubles.

Very well and politely said. As for me, I'm not a religious person but if I was I'd wish Putin to burn for eternity in the same Hell as Cheney, GWB and any of the rest of them that think it's A-OK to kill legions of dirty furriners for made-up bald-faced lie reasons (ok, some companies did make a shit-ton of money in Iraq, that's a pretty straightforward reason. Sacking and pillaging has always been a thing, even calling it "liberation".)

 

[Case]

Drones. Manned military aircraft are relics. Their flight characteristics are limited to what a human can endure. Their mission characteristics are limited to the ones humans are likely to survive. Their very expensive cockpit systems exist entirely to facilitate an on-board pilot.

The only thing a manned aircraft let's you do these days than a UAV doesn't is execute a mission even when you have lost field communications/command.

Drones.

That's honestly what I was wondering, though I have little knowledge in the area. It seems to me that drones are advancing very rapidly in capability, and I assume the "AI" that could be used in them is too.

 

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Russian Defense Ministry: "... the United States is training migratory birds to migrate from Ukraine to Russia and distribute bacteriological weapons"

https://twitter.com/haltman/status/1502 ... 72711?s=21

Are they putting vodka in the drinking water?

Is he talking about African or European swallows?

I can see why Trump got on with these whackos. That quote is dumb enough to be one of his.

 

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Re: bringing back the jerbs, er factories

That would take sacrifice and patience by the public because it would make goods WAY more expensive, and willingness to elect forward-thinking leaders to make it happen. Much as with climate change mitigation efforts. Hell "we" can't even endure the ball and chain of paper masks during a fucking pandemic without turning it into a Bataan death march for "Freedom".

Instead, "we" elect people like Trump and Green etc who just deny the issue even exists. Not that I really think Democrats would have the long-term patience to change their standard of living either to what would be required, but I reckon they'd do better than the rubes that follow Trump. In other words, asking the American public to give up its Dollar stores and "tighten belts", might as well ask pigs to fly.

 

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It is clear Biden was 100% onto Putin and when the history of this is dissected he should get the lionshare of credit for unifying the west against Putin.

Meanwhile, Trump now says he would have openly threatened Putin with nukes.

"Elections don't matter", indeed.

What a complete load (him saying he'd threaten Putin.) Trump would likely be threatening other Western countries for the sanctions against his big daddy. He'd be doing Putin's bidding, unwittingly or not. As far as Ukraine goes, he'd just say "I don't like loser countries".

You think Tucker Carlson is running Ukraine down now, if Trump had been in there Fox would have wall to wall coverage about how it's worse than kneeling football players, bathroom-lurking trannies and rapist illegal immigrants combined.

 

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He was one of a bunch of "martial artists" throughout the 80s who convinced American audiences he was a badass. That earned him a couple of high-profile movies and a string of C-or-D grade rental shelf fillers for a while. Mostly people just aren't going for his one-note schtick anymore, and he's old and out of shape. So there goes the star power. As for how he started shacking up with Putler? I neither know nor care, to be honest. I get the impression it's mostly that he's a kook and doesn't tolerate people around him telling him "no" to his kookiness.

Don't forget his stint (still ongoing? No idea) as a cop, or at least one in a reality show. I've seen one episode and it was...about as awful as one would expect.

YMMV, I find Tom Segura hilarious, this is his bit on Seagal being a cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isNRZJ6icwc

 

[Case]

An American fighting in Ukraine; he's having fun;

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1507086507697487885?s=20&t=u4YwRZ_vCfn-P3MRioqtOw

https://twitter.com/tn_tomek/status/1507087097907318785?s=20&t=u4YwRZ_vCfn-P3MRioqtOw

Can we maybe send all the Jan 6 militia "Freedom" types over there? I'm sure the Ukrainians don't want them, considering they are mostly fat suburban shit-talkers with toy collections, but maybe they can bring some "Freedom" to a place that *actually* lacks it. If they need trucks and/or dirvers, the Freedom Convoy seems to be out of North American dictatorships to whine about currently.

 

[Case]

Russians probably believe whatever crap is being sold them by their government-controlled media, just like Americans swallowed the "Iraq is evil and wants to blow us up, just like the 9/11 people, and if we try long enough we'll come up with a connection" propaganda before the Iraq invasion. Get the rubes convinced that they are under attack and have to defend themselves, a sure-fire way to win support for an illogical and immoral war.

 

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WTF...if Ukraine managed to launch an attack on the Kremlin itself, why would that be surprising, or wrong? Russia is butthurt over this fuel depot?

"It's offensive that our opponent dared to strike us, when the proper behavior is to take the pummeling we are offering!"

Russia fucking invaded. It's a war. They and their supporters can bleat that its not, but it's war. Cities are being leveled and civilians killed in (probably) large numbers, and there is outrage that Ukraine hits a fuel depot on Russian soil? What reality are people living in? I guess just like with Americans and Saddam, they've bought into "it's for our and the world's security that we do this thing" utter bullshit.

 

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I know the two events are supposed to be completely and utterly unrelated, but all of this sounds *exactly* like the justifications for the Iraq War (the one in which, or because of, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died.)

"We gotta bomb Sad-damn before he bombs us." At best, "we had to take such unfortunate steps to ensure our security, and that of the world."

Rubes are rubes the world over. Just convince them the inhuman barbarian rapists are at the gates and they'll go along with anything. Deny the death and suffering, then deny you did it--and if that isn't selling, well they aren't human anyway. I guess the big difference here is that I can't see how the money is being made by the perpetrator, unlike with Iraq.

 

[Case]

UK sending more armoured vehicles and NLAWS;
Thetimes;

The armoured vehicles would be stripped of sensitive equipment and British troops would be sent to a country neighbouring Ukraine to carry out training, a defence source said. Further support, including anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, would be announced within days, the source added.

When I read things like this, it really strikes me that it's a completely arbitrary thing to say "Nato isn't at war with Russia." Nato is sending weapons and people to teach Ukraine how to use them; it's certainly difficult to see how Russia *doesn't* consider that joining the war.

I mean, what's the real difference between stuff like this and just having Nato manning the weapons, when you get down to it. Both sides know Nato is involved, heavily, but they've chosen to semi-pretend it isn't happening; it reminds me of that Star Trek episode where both sides simulated the nuke strikes and the people would have to report to the death chambers if they got "hit".

 

[Case]

Well, that's the reason for all this "we are fighting for our security", to fool the home rubes into thinking they are in the fight for their lives. It worked for Nazi Germany (though I don't know much about the German publics acceptance and/or enthusiasm), it worked for GWB's "defensive" jihad of destruction in Iraq, and it may be working here. Just get people convinced that the other guy is about to kill you, no matter how nonsensical that actually is.

 

[Case]

One big exception, we need to change the laws that prevent us from providing evidence to the ICC. That would help.

Being in the ICC would help American credibility.

So would not having our own murderous invasion over absolute bullshit pretenses less than two decades ago. Whoops. I guess our happy thought there is that we were maybe less "war-crimey" than the Russians? We deserved universal condemnation and sanctions ourselves, but winners get to write the history books and don't get punished I guess.

 

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Again I don't see what a false flag operation is supposed to accomplish. "The country we are systematically destroying, and whose population we are raping, enslaving and grinding into the mud, has dared to set fire to something on our soil! How DARE they?! We are OUTRAGED! Now we are going to rape twice as hard!"

Yes, I know it's for the good Russian folks at home who need to be riled up at the heinous acts of those evil Ukrainians. And maybe the Russian leadership believes it's own information bubble bullshit and thinks the rest of the world doesn't hope for them to die in a ditch. At this point a ditch is too kind to them, a fire would do nicely.

 

[Case]

No shit, he's explained very well that it's not going to happen overnight (if it does) so what's the point in haranguing him over it?

Not to mention we aren't all in favor of things our countries do. I couldn't wave my magic wand and wish GWB and his puppet masters out of stomping a country over bogus "security concerns" for example. (Gee, sound familiar?)

Create a "Swiss neutrality" thread and be done with it.

 

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Gotta spend all that money on something? Something obvious and showy to indicate just how great of a man one is.

Can't use it on some "good cause" or just not take it in the first place, that's only for chumps.

Of course I see being ultra-rich in a world full of ultra-poor as being immoral and sign of a broken society in the first place, so ymmv.

 

[Case]

I got a first-hand example of the difference between how Chinese media and pretty much everyone else non-Russian is presenting the war. My wife has lived here for decades now but she mostly sees Chinese news...she's all about the "it's Ukraine's fault, Russia is protecting themselves." The discussion went downhill from there, so no more discussions about it...once it hit the "America does worse stuff" point, yeah, I think we are done here. Sadly, we fucking did something similar with the Iraq invasion, which still burns me thinking about it, but the blaming Ukraine I can't stomach. Any more than I can stomach fox-watch relatives gnashing their teeth over trannies and illegals, and I don't talk to them about politics either.

China may not be actively helping Russia win the war, but they definitely are helping with the hearts and minds dept with a quarter of the world's population. What can you expect though, they just censored the WHO for stating an opinion that the zero contact covid policy won't work. They'll present whatever reality they think will help them, again much like Fox for the GOP.

 

[Case]

Huh, maybe my plan to go to Finland as the US devolves into a white Christian theocracy is back on the table!

Russia of course continues with the wacky fiction about invading for their own defense. Raping Nazis for freedom program. Heck at least the Chinese believe it, and they can see what their own alternate reality efforts have done in the states via fake news, so why not try it.

 

[Case]

Would Russia actually attack Finland, in or out of NATO, especially any time in the near future when they are getting bogged down in Ukraine?

That seems nuts but admittedly because Finland seems much more a part of "old Europe" and "The West" than Ukraine. Even if Finland wasn't in NATO, would other countries stand for this (especially Sweden and Norway?)

I'll freely admit I know very little about the region politically (very interested in Finland as a dream retirement place but that's about it!)

 

[Case]

It’s official;

Finland's President Sauli Niinistö confirms that his country will apply for NATO membership, paving the way for what he described as a "new era."

My retirement dreams are back on! (Only half kidding, and that assumes Finland would actually want me.) My wife wants to retire to China, at that point it will be "let's visit once in a while" because I don't see myself ever moving there. As bad as the US scene is or might get, that's another level of no.

 

[Case]

Put me down in the camp of worrying about the huge nuclear "power" (quotes to indicate recent performance) raping, kidnapping and generally destroying the populace and infrastructure of the country before engaging in a purity test against the people fighting the invaders.

 

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Oops.


Former President George W. Bush: “The decision of one man to launch a wholly unjustified and brutal invasion of Iraq. I mean of Ukraine.”


https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1 ... 26114?s=21

Holy irony, Batman. Gaffe aside, it takes some balls to stand up there and complain about another world leader invading and bombing a country with whom you have longstanding conflicts because they are a "security concern." If you aren't going to be held accountable, because "Freedom" or something, fuck off George.

He may have been more polite and a bit more "political" than Trump, but he and his merry band of warlords have far more blood on their hands than Trump does. Trump acts the way he does because he's a spoiled bully, a spiteful addled child. Cheney and the rest of them knew exactly what they were doing and were willing to kill shitloads of people to "spread Democracy"...and oh, get a lot of money into certain hands.

 

[Case]

I've assumed all along that Ukrainian losses are high. What would anyone expect? The feared-for-decades Russian army coming into lowly Ukraine, and lobbing missiles and bombs into civilian centers. The surprise would be if Russian losses were within an order of magnitude of Ukrainian ones. And indeed Russia does seem pretty surprised.

Possibly even they didn't even know how shitty their army actually was.

Ukraine is going to say anything to keep their morale up, of course I wouldn't believe their numbers. It doesn't matter. They are fighting for their existence against a murderous invading force committed to their extermination, any propaganda that would help them survive would be expected. Of course it's absolutely awesome if most of it turns out to be true.

 

[Case]

To the foes list it goes.

I've got too much hootin' and hollerin' to do with all my liberal buddies to bother. Oh wait, I'm not celebrating thousands dead over a lying madman's invasion. Neither is anyone else I know. The whole thing is sad, and pathetic; to think the country who fended off Hitler is now doing their best impersonation.

 

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If we get a Russian poster on here that isn't a troll, then I have faith in this forum that they won't be labeled as one (at least not universally as our last under-bridge-dweller was.)

Troll is as troll does.

 

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The troll assignment for this forum is probably considered the equivalent of Melvin's basement (he of the red stapler.) Probably not getting the best and brightest in here.

 

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It would be a better world if nobody gave a shit what the head of Pedophile Inc. had to say about anything. Then again, all those people have to believe in *something*, right? They might become Evangelicals. (I went to Catholic school for a couple years and have a big family full of Evangelicals, so I have some ability to compare the two cults.)

 

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Imagine if we hadn't unilaterally shredded our end of the JPCOA. Perhaps we would have been well into détente mode with Tehran by now. Funny how all the "America First" neo-isolationists still seem to have total war lust when it comes to any kind of dealings with Iran.

If my relatives are any guide--and Evangelicals seems to have a big say in GOP mindset--it's all about Israel. Anyone remotely an enemy of Israel needs to be eradicated.

 

[Case]

The question to ask would be, why would Russia (or any instigating invader) feel compelled to relocate children affected by the weapons they are employing?

Whether or not it's "genocide" by a book definition, is the reason out of the goodness of their hearts? Or something else?

 

[Case]

My wife, who is from China and knows a lot of Chinese people here and following Chinese news, basically believes the same horseshit. We don't talk about the war because there's no common ground, no common reality to even have a discussion. Russia is defending itself, don't believe the western news blah blah. And of course we did shoot our credibility wad by doing the exact same thing in Iraq that Putin is doing--invading another country for our "security". It still gets my blood boiling thinking about it.

Already seeing right-wing zealots using money spent in Ukraine as a talking point. Putin has the sort of arrogant imperial authoritarianism that appeals to a lot of people, certain the right wing here in the US is all about that.

 

[Case]

Perhaps we can come up with a different term or phrase for what the Russians are engaged in then. Better that that getting hung up in semantics.

News from Russia and China is painting a far different picture than...well, just about all the news from everywhere else. I have people in my life that get their news from the former and it's...nuts.

Just like with the Iraq Invasion, if someone believes the invader is doing it for their "security" no matter what the actual facts say, there's nothing to discuss.

 

[Case]

Does anyone know what those flares are that are landing in the field? Are they to create a smoke screen, maybe? Are they coming from the other side?

Sorry, I'm looking at a slightly different video of what looks like the same engagement: https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/15 ... slLdeN_zSg

That gunner is doing everything.

Holy crap that was intense. My first thought was, some pretty bad shootin' Tex from those people at the houses, considering they are shooting at a large vehicle. Then again, my idea of accuracy in warfare comes from the movies, so

 

[Case]

I definitely will avoid watching those fucking Russian "news" talking heads. Reminded me too much of the American programs (and frankly most of the public) back before and during the Iraq Invasion. Now my blood is boiling. All of them talking about how Russia is oh so righteous, and how it's just not fair that the West is supplying arms. Not fair? Mighty Russia sweeping into a smaller country to murder rape and pillage and people are bleating about fairness?

This whole damn thing is so awful, and pitiful. It's not like the entire world doesn't have bigger problems. Plains apes gotta shit fling.

Edit: I hope that linked stuff is seen by the Russian troops, because one central point of discussion is that "we have to get tougher". Easy to say when you are safely far from the front and your biggest challenge each day is sitting still while they do up your hair. Basically they were shitting all over the army the whole time indirectly.

 

[Case]

If Russian forces keep collapsing, Putin may be pushed to desperation.

If not tactical nukes, chemical weapons?

I've had that same thought. He's already in a corner of his own making and because this has all been declared to be a war for Russia's survival and security (which is of course utter horseshit)

You wonder what the out is (to steal a bit from that Sun Tzu quote about escaping forced). Pressure will build even if a stalemate dragged on, let alone if Ukraine keeps this up.

 

[Case]

I definitely will avoid watching those fucking Russian "news" talking heads. Reminded me too much of the American programs (and frankly most of the public) back before and during the Iraq Invasion. Now my blood is boiling. All of them talking about how Russia is oh so righteous, and how it's just not fair that the West is supplying arms.

But there's a great example at about 3:40 or 3:50 in that video, talking about exactly that...and it's hilarious.

Right after he points out that NATO has a military-industrial complex with a budget on par with Russia's entire GDP, he says Russia should start fighting Ukraine with "weapons they've never seen, including the arms from North Korea."

I know, sorry about that, my statement was a little confusing. I watched a lot of that one and I really meant that it got me angry and sick enough that I'd avoid doing it again

My "favorite" was the middle-aged dumpy "badass" looking dramatically at the camera and asking if maybe they could toughen up (something like that), implying that so far they haven't been. I'm sure all the Russian conscripts would enjoy hearing that bit of pep talk from this puffed up toad while they continue to be shot off tanks and blown up.

 

[Case]

When you read about all the soldiers being sent with bad training, worse (and little) food, terrible equipment and lack of direction...then you read that a lot of them (most?) are poor ethnic minorities....well, that's one way to 'clean up' Russia, their own version of MAGA. Send their equivalent of darkies to the grinder, after all it was the mean ol nazi Ukrainians that killed them.

 

[Case]

I'd say someone who drums up a phony war in the name of "security", and then proceeds to engage his army in (what could be considered by many on this forum to be) genocide is indeed an arch-villain. See also GWB, who is directly responsible for up to a million dead humans all over an "oops, my bad". Or perhaps Putin hasn't reached "arch" status because his murder scorecard doesn't have a high enough number just yet (?)

Putin should answer for what he's doing now, preferably by a base-jumping accident.