Mutant crayfish got rid of males, and its clones are taking over the world

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Vnend

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Does the cloning actually provide any competitive advantage over non-clone crayfish, or did it just make it easier for them to escape?

Would they actually out-compete native US crayfish?

The primary advantage is that 100% of your population is producing offspring.
This allows you to recover faster from population drops. Others have pointed out the primary disadvantage.
 
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0bliv!on

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Does the cloning actually provide any competitive advantage over non-clone crayfish, or did it just make it easier for them to escape?

Would they actually out-compete native US crayfish?

The primary advantage is that 100% of your population is producing offspring.
This allows you to recover faster from population drops. Others have pointed out the primary disadvantage.
Also (potentially) less energy wasted on mating rituals. I've no idea if crayfish have any.
 
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A female is still needed to carry the embryo to term..

You are apparently nowhere near as well read on the topic as you seem to think. Try going back, oh, about 20 years, for the studies. We don't do it because it is difficult, pointless, and ethics committees are a bitch, but the tech. to implant and carry a fetus in the abdominal cavity of a male has been available for ages.
 
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17 (18 / -1)
Once science becomes sufficiently advanced, males will become obsolete. There is hope for humanity if this is the trajectory. Most of our attempts to eliminate ourselves have been testosterone-fueled destructive instincts. An eventual all female society may result in some common sense, an end to the glorification of violence and greed, and best of all -- a chance.


Speedr hasn't had much interaction with post-pubescent female humans, I get the feeling. :-/
 
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I, for one, welcome our new pinchy overlords....

Amazing range, although how mich of a threat does this pose, simply by being able to breed endlessly? Also, I'm really curious why we don't see more large animals like this. Sure, there's likely long term downsides, but is it just that thry can spread with globalisation and not wind up in a tiny area and essentially overcompete to death?
I assume they all die off the first time a disease they are all vulnerable shows up. That is the problem with clones. We have the same problem with fruit trees, it just takes one bad disease to wipe all of them out.

I don't think that this applies to these crayfish(certainly better if it doesn't); but you can combine the benefits of clonal reproduction with the benefits of frequent genetic reshuffling.

It's one of the big tricks to being a bacterium: asexual cell division allows you to reproduce absurdly fast as long as resources are available; while horizontal gene transfer via plasmids allows for something sort of like 'inheritance' without the inconvenience of having to have the right parents, or parents at all.

I'm not sure how much, if any, horizontal gene transfer is exploited by any larger organisms. There is some, typically undesired and unintended, sloshing around courtesy of viruses; but if that has turned into a plasmid-level strategy anywhere I've never heard about it(but if you have, do tell).

Edit: they don't use it for gene transfer within their own species; but there are some parasitoid wasps that have a pretty damn badass relationship with what straddles the line between 'symbiotic virus' and 'external cell organelle': they have one of a fair number of polydnavirus strains permanently incorporated into their DNA; not active as a virus but reproduced along with the rest of the DNA with every cell division.

In the oviducts of egg-laying females; the polydnavirus is copied out of the more or less inert storage in the genome and packaged up as a functional virus; which is then injected, along with eggs and specialized venom, into the still-living caterpillars that will serve as food and housing for the ravenous larvae when they hatch. The venom, among other things, suppresses host immune response to protect the eggs shortly after they have been injected. The polydnavirus, an effective pathogen of the caterpillar, suppresses its immune system in the longer term and modifies its cellular metabolism a bit to increase the nutritional value of its hemolymph to the wasp larvae. The live viruses are doomed to die with their host; but their actions contribute to the success of the larvae; which all have the virus contained in the DNA of every one of their cells, so the virus effectively gets reproduced as part of wasp reproduction.

Luckily we don't know of any species with a taste for mammals.
 
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flunk

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it's "Ukraine", without "the", when will automatic spellcheck catch up?..
Fwiw, anyone who may think (as I did at one time) this is an obsessive detail that can only irritate Ukrainians, they should try applying it to another country such as:


  • • The country we're in is the Canada or the Mexico or the America.
    • The country we're in is Canada or Mexico or America.

Honestly I think Canada, Mexico, and all the other countries in north and south America should be a little put out that the United States of America is constantly referred to as just America. America is 2 continents, and the USA does not own the whole thing.

They are. But the US doesn't care.

I was once annoyed at being called "American" in France, when I was *Canadian*. They pointed out America is a continent, and kept calling me American.

That works both ways, you can call them Eurasian. I'm sure they'd hate that.
 
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numerobis

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So you all can insult and snark pretty well, but not one actual answer as to why, if the reproduction question is answered, there needs to be anything but females in human society.

Why do we need males going forward?

Provide a reason, maybe, not just a wise-ass comment. If two females can reproduce and produce female offspring - why do we need men?

"I am one so that's why" doesn't count.

We wouldn't, at which point lesbian couples could have children together without involving some third party. But the same holds for men: gays could have biological children as well. Why would heterosexual couples jump at using these techniques?

A female is still needed to carry the embryo to term. F-F fertilization of an egg we have figured out, "growing a baby in a vat", we have not. A uterus is still necessary, and likely will be for the foreseeable future.

Going rate in the US for a surrogate mother seems to be about $30k plus living expenses for nine months. With the donated egg and IVF and the hospitalization for the pregnancy, it gets to about $200k for a gay couple to have a child.

None of the technology you are talking about exists right now. In the lab we can fertilize mouse eggs with other mouse cells. In the lab we can also clone sheep and so on. But we aren't doing it with humans. Even IVF, which we've been doing for decades, has a very high rate of failures and complications.

I still really want to hear one, just one reason, a valid one not a joke or sarcasm or an insult, as to what would be an inherent problem with, or disadvantage to, an all-female human society; and I challenge you to do so without being outright sexist (i.e., 'men are needed because women can't lift heavy things') - A real, sensible reason. I have yet to hear a single one.

You're advocating *for* using technology to get to an all-female society, so I think the standard of proof is on you to deliver. Why is this such an advantage?

For disadvantages: Women tend to be sexually attracted to men. Having something like 80-90% of the population unable to find a suitable sexual partner might be a slight bummer. That's about the worst thing I can think of off hand.
 
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jdale

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So you all can insult and snark pretty well, but not one actual answer as to why, if the reproduction question is answered, there needs to be anything but females in human society.

Why do we need males going forward?

Provide a reason, maybe, not just a wise-ass comment. If two females can reproduce and produce female offspring - why do we need men?

"I am one so that's why" doesn't count.

We wouldn't, at which point lesbian couples could have children together without involving some third party. But the same holds for men: gays could have biological children as well. Why would heterosexual couples jump at using these techniques?

A female is still needed to carry the embryo to term. F-F fertilization of an egg we have figured out, "growing a baby in a vat", we have not. A uterus is still necessary, and likely will be for the foreseeable future.

I'm talking about female-female fertilization, not these ridiculous jumps of "cloning" or "vat-grown humans" or "androids with AI." These are things possible now, and today; not 200 years into the future.

So yes, lesbian couples could have children together without a third party; Gay male couples would require the services of a woman to carry the birth, and only one of the two could be the biological father. We cannot replicate eggs or the uterus. We can however replicate sperm (spermatids). Men are simple to emulate biologically - Women not anywhere near so.

Heterosexual couples would likely not. But there would be a slow increase in F-F female offspring and in general males would see their roles in furthering the species becoming a luxury versus a necessity. (Some heterosexual couples may actually decide to go this route as most sex-linked diseases are carried on the male side.)

This is about a slow, gradual trend to a female society, which we are already beginning to move towards socially (you're seeing the beginnings of it right now).

Humans have not 'followed the book" evolutionarily compared to a lot of other species, so looking at the past is likely not a predictor of where we're going.

I still really want to hear one, just one reason, a valid one not a joke or sarcasm or an insult, as to what would be an inherent problem with, or disadvantage to, an all-female human society; and I challenge you to do so without being outright sexist (i.e., 'men are needed because women can't lift heavy things') - A real, sensible reason. I have yet to hear a single one.

I think it would be a dangerous move to make society 100% dependent on medical interventions for reproduction. Two human women cannot produce a child on their own without medical help. F-F fertilization is possible, and that's fine if you want to do it, but it's not unassisted. I suspect that if child-bearing could occur only with medical assistance, reproductive rates would drop significantly.

Beyond that, I think it's fair to say that diversity is beneficial for a functioning society. Take any non-trivial trait and remove all the variance, and I think you will come out behind.

I also disagree with the claim that we are moving towards "a female society." I would like to think we are moving towards an egalitarian society, and that involves giving more attention to female perspectives than we have historically, but I don't think it would be accurate to say we have reached that egalitarian midpoint, much less swung the pendulum in women's favor.
 
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Wheels Of Confusion

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This rapid spread may be a problem for ecologists that are trying to preserve native species, but it's fascinating for biology

So tired of scientists/journalists saying shit is good when it destroys natives in the process. By that logic all the crap that has been introduced into the Great Lakes from shipping is marvelous and everything trying to migrate from the Mississippi to the Great Lakes is spectacular as well.
Didn't say it was good.
Said it was fascinating.
 
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So you all can insult and snark pretty well, but not one actual answer as to why, if the reproduction question is answered, there needs to be anything but females in human society.

Why do we need males going forward?

Provide a reason, maybe, not just a wise-ass comment. If two females can reproduce and produce female offspring - why do we need men?

"I am one so that's why" doesn't count.

We wouldn't, at which point lesbian couples could have children together without involving some third party. But the same holds for men: gays could have biological children as well. Why would heterosexual couples jump at using these techniques?

A female is still needed to carry the embryo to term. F-F fertilization of an egg we have figured out, "growing a baby in a vat", we have not. A uterus is still necessary, and likely will be for the foreseeable future.

Going rate in the US for a surrogate mother seems to be about $30k plus living expenses for nine months. With the donated egg and IVF and the hospitalization for the pregnancy, it gets to about $200k for a gay couple to have a child.

None of the technology you are talking about exists right now. In the lab we can fertilize mouse eggs with other mouse cells. In the lab we can also clone sheep and so on. But we aren't doing it with humans. Even IVF, which we've been doing for decades, has a very high rate of failures and complications.

I still really want to hear one, just one reason, a valid one not a joke or sarcasm or an insult, as to what would be an inherent problem with, or disadvantage to, an all-female human society; and I challenge you to do so without being outright sexist (i.e., 'men are needed because women can't lift heavy things') - A real, sensible reason. I have yet to hear a single one.

You're advocating *for* using technology to get to an all-female society, so I think the standard of proof is on you to deliver. Why is this such an advantage?

For disadvantages: Women tend to be sexually attracted to men. Having something like 80-90% of the population unable to find a suitable sexual partner might be a slight bummer. That's about the worst thing I can think of off hand.


they'd not be able to reproduce, the'd fight themselves to death unless they starved first?

do you even understand how female led cultures work? extreme hierarchy and hen pecking?
 
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-16 (3 / -19)
A female is still needed to carry the embryo to term..

You are apparently nowhere near as well read on the topic as you seem to think. Try going back, oh, about 20 years, for the studies. We don't do it because it is difficult, pointless, and ethics committees are a bitch, but the tech. to implant and carry a fetus in the abdominal cavity of a male has been available for ages.


logically you'd just create tanks to act as external wombs, and all females would simply go 'extinct' as they'd only exist as these specialized tanks used to create new life/things

+ saw some stupid comments earlier, this one is obviously a take on popular sci fi, but its literally the most logical extension of humanity if we decided to eliminate a gender

its also the only way society wouldnt destroy itself, or die due to lack of advancement
 
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Siegzon

Seniorius Lurkius
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This will be a handy response for all of the "we've never observed evolution in human lifetimes" trolls.

It won't matter. They've got the goal posts mounted on wheels.

It's a virgin birth. They might end up worshiping the things.

It is not necessary to be disrespectful of religion in order to support science. I fail to see how insulting people and their beliefs will help the cause of science. In fact, it leads readers to an easy logical fallacy that studying science makes one a mean, bitter, nasty secularist.

Or to be more succinct, you catch more with honey than vinegar.
 
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-9 (10 / -19)
I, for one, welcome our new pinchy overlords....

Amazing range, although how mich of a threat does this pose, simply by being able to breed endlessly? Also, I'm really curious why we don't see more large animals like this. Sure, there's likely long term downsides, but is it just that thry can spread with globalisation and not wind up in a tiny area and essentially overcompete to death?
What the species gains in the ability to reproduce sexually, it loses in its inability to diversify genetically through sexual reproduction.

The biggest thing that kills dominant species is disease. When a population of any dominant species becomes concentrated, disease can spread quickly through that population to become a legitimate threat to the species as a whole. Think black plague in Europe during the dark ages, or smallpox in America that literally killed off nearly 90% of the native American population after being brought over from Europe.

The only reason humans survived either of those epidemics is because certain portions of those populations had genes that made them more resistant and allowed them to survive the disease by developing the correct antibodies in time to save the host.

These critters have no such genetic diversity. Because they are all essentially clones, when (not if, when) they run across a disease that the species can't handle, it's going to kill the entire population, not 90 or 99%. 100%, because they are all identical.

It's basically the whole reason sexual reproduction is so dominant across our biosphere, and asexual reproduction only occurs in single celled organisms. Sexual reproduction produces the genetic diversity a population needs to survive disease and adapt to changing environments. Single celled organisms only get by without it because they divide and reproduce so quickly that natural mutations fill the need for diversity and adaptability.
 
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0bliv!on

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
6,695
This will be a handy response for all of the "we've never observed evolution in human lifetimes" trolls.

It won't matter. They've got the goal posts mounted on wheels.

It's a virgin birth. They might end up worshiping the things.

It is not necessary to be disrespectful of religion in order to support science. I fail to see how insulting people and their beliefs will help the cause of science. In fact, it leads readers to an easy logical fallacy that studying science makes one a mean, bitter, nasty secularist.

Or to be more succinct, you catch more with honey than vinegar.
Ars is not as civilized or enlightened as you think. People will be people, whether they believe in religion or in science. One might be objectively more correct, but neither will make people any *better*.
 
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0bliv!on

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
6,695
It is not necessary to be disrespectful of religion in order to support science. I fail to see how insulting people and their beliefs will help the cause of science.

Religions are mind viruses, that need to be eradicated.
Sigh no. Religions are belief-systems, which started out as tools for social cohesion, and remain (much less important) tools for social cohesion. As with most things, they're not good or bad, they just are. And people need belief systems because that's part of (most) people's psyche, because the concept that we're slightly better organized lumps of protein that are here for a blink of an eye and don't really mean much, is generally not conducive to mental health.

Plus, look at ones like Buddhism or Hinduism or Zoroastrianism. Perfectly (mostly) harmless.
 
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-8 (5 / -13)

Chimel31

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,415
it's "Ukraine", without "the", when will automatic spellcheck catch up?..
Fwiw, anyone who may think (as I did at one time) this is an obsessive detail that can only irritate Ukrainians, they should try applying it to another country such as:


  • • The country we're in is the Canada or the Mexico or the America.
    • The country we're in is Canada or Mexico or America.

Honestly I think Canada, Mexico, and all the other countries in north and south America should be a little put out that the United States of America is constantly referred to as just America. America is 2 continents, and the USA does not own the whole thing.

Uh–oh. Sadly, it looks like I may have unintentionally started something dragging myself into a misunderstanding with a comment that may have been a little too brief.

I did know about "The" existing for some countries but was pointing out how Ukrainians felt with analogies to other countries not having the article "the" in the use of their names.

When I used the unofficial name America, being aware of its status as unofficial, I considered qualifying it but decided against it—for better or worse—as it's not germain to the point of the post.

However, I should point out that the western hemisphere, referred to as the Americas in other parts of the world, has two continents named: "North America" and "South America"; not America. Also, "The United States of America" originally referred to by outsiders as a plural and using the shorthand term for both continents, "The United States of the Americas" is (I think) the only country in the western hemisphere with "America" in its name.

If there aren't any unexpected flaws in that explanation, using the shorthand name "America" should be reasonably acceptable without other countries finding it to be an offense; or, to avoid this problem, "The U.S.", is another shorthand that can be used, as previously mentioned in another comment.
I don't think it needed a comparison with other countries or how Ukrainians feel about it, it's just that the standard English language usage for this country is Ukraine, not the Ukraine. The only time you would use "the" is to refer to a specific context, like in the Ukraine of Leonid Brezhnev, or the Ukraine of 1800.

By the way, about the USA and America, a recent trend developed in French: Instead of calling their inhabitants Americans ("Américains"), which is too vague in some context but mostly usurps the right of other American countries, they're called USians ("États-Uniens"), a word first used in Quebec in the 1930s. The first time I heard it was on French national radio about 30 years ago, and everybody immediately understood why it was used and so much more appropriate and PC for other American countries. A small innocent jab at American pride and hegemony, or a willful stab for the more revengeful and bitter anti-Americans...
 
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-4 (3 / -7)
The only time you would use "the" is to refer to a specific context, like in the Ukraine of Leonid Brezhnev, or the Ukraine of 1800.

By the way, about the USA and America, a recent trend developed in French: Instead of calling their inhabitants Americans ("Américains"), which is too vague in some context but mostly usurps the right of other American countries, they're called USians ("États-Uniens"), a word first used in Quebec in the 1930s. The first time I heard it was on French national radio about 30 years ago, and everybody immediately understood why it was used and so much more appropriate and PC for other American countries. A small innocent jab at American pride and hegemony, or a willful stab for the more revengeful and bitter anti-Americans...

For your first point: if you read any older geography books, printed in English, they will always refer to "the Ukraine", just like you today refer to "the Netherlands". It is a bit weird to use it today but it's not any more wrong than referring to Cote d'Ivoire as Ivory Coast, which people also still do.

For your second point: I am a French speaking American citizen who has lived most of my life in French-speaking European countries and no one ever normally refers to US citizens as "Etats-Uniens" although it is a word that people would recognize. I have filled out umpteen forms of my nationality as "American" and never, ever, had anyone mention it as "hey u need 2 be more specific about wat cuntry ur from". It's only for pedantic pricks that it matters, like "where are you from" >> "EARTH Lolllllll u dumb or wat".
 
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Carewolf

Ars Legatus Legionis
10,449
it's "Ukraine", without "the", when will automatic spellcheck catch up?..
Fwiw, anyone who may think (as I did at one time) this is an obsessive detail that can only irritate Ukrainians, they should try applying it to another country such as:


  • • The country we're in is the Canada or the Mexico or the America.
    • The country we're in is Canada or Mexico or America.
That ignores etymology.

Good write-up from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

Edit: Example of countries still with "the":

- The Philippines
- The Bahamas
- The Netherlands

Etc.

Note all of those are plural. Ukraine is the only non-plural country I can think of that still has the article in English. Note however that this is different in other languages. In German for instance Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine and several other countries are both singular and have a definite article (fun fact: Switzerland is apparently a feminine country)
 
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Carewolf

Ars Legatus Legionis
10,449
I, for one, welcome our new pinchy overlords....

Amazing range, although how mich of a threat does this pose, simply by being able to breed endlessly? Also, I'm really curious why we don't see more large animals like this. Sure, there's likely long term downsides, but is it just that thry can spread with globalisation and not wind up in a tiny area and essentially overcompete to death?
I assume they all die off the first time a disease they are all vulnerable shows up. That is the problem with clones. We have the same problem with fruit trees, it just takes one bad disease to wipe all of them out.

I don't think that this applies to these crayfish(certainly better if it doesn't); but you can combine the benefits of clonal reproduction with the benefits of frequent genetic reshuffling.

It's one of the big tricks to being a bacterium: asexual cell division allows you to reproduce absurdly fast as long as resources are available; while horizontal gene transfer via plasmids allows for something sort of like 'inheritance' without the inconvenience of having to have the right parents, or parents at all.

I'm not sure how much, if any, horizontal gene transfer is exploited by any larger organisms. There is some, typically undesired and unintended, sloshing around courtesy of viruses; but if that has turned into a plasmid-level strategy anywhere I've never heard about it(but if you have, do tell).

Placental Mammals are part Herpes, that is how we can have a placenta. At some point a common ancestor of platapuses and placental mammals had a nasty herpes infection and gave birth to an animal that was part herpes and could give live birth. It also why we can not become immune to herpes.
 
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JPan

Well-known member
8,335
it's "Ukraine", without "the", when will automatic spellcheck catch up?..
Fwiw, anyone who may think (as I did at one time) this is an obsessive detail that can only irritate Ukrainians, they should try applying it to another country such as:


  • • The country we're in is the Canada or the Mexico or the America.
    • The country we're in is Canada or Mexico or America.
That ignores etymology.

Good write-up from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

Edit: Example of countries still with "the":

- The Philippines
- The Bahamas
- The Netherlands

Etc.

Note all of those are plural. Ukraine is the only non-plural country I can think of that still has the article in English. Note however that this is different in other languages. In German for instance Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine and several other countries are both singular and have a definite article (fun fact: Switzerland is apparently a feminine country)

All of them are. Die Schweiz die Ukraine die Türkei And last but not least die USA. Interesting actually never thought of it. We also have male countries "der Kongo"

We seem to have removed "Das" from the countries with normal endings. Land( Country) Or reich( area?) both of them neutral. I.e. Frankreich England ( Land of the angels) etc.

Although not even that is true since Polen doesn't have an article. So what can I say. German language is weird.
 
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erendorn

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,018
Does the cloning actually provide any competitive advantage over non-clone crayfish, or did it just make it easier for them to escape?

Would they actually out-compete native US crayfish?

You need a couple of individual to start a local community through sexual reproduction, whereas you only need a single individual for the cloned version, so it definitely has a competitive advantage with respect to accidental introduction.

That said, once the population has reached a certain size, there is no particular advantage (poluation growth becomes limited by resource availability, not just ability to reproduce willy nilly). And, as other posters have noted, clone based populations are particularly suceptible to be wiped out by deseases, predators, change of environmental conditions, etc., since they won't be able to adapt to new threats (which, in the case of desease and pretators, can on the contrary adapt to them).
 
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1 (1 / 0)
it's "Ukraine", without "the", when will automatic spellcheck catch up?..
Fwiw, anyone who may think (as I did at one time) this is an obsessive detail that can only irritate Ukrainians, they should try applying it to another country such as:


  • • The country we're in is the Canada or the Mexico or the America.
    • The country we're in is Canada or Mexico or America.

Honestly I think Canada, Mexico, and all the other countries in north and south America should be a little put out that the United States of America is constantly referred to as just America. America is 2 continents, and the USA does not own the whole thing.

As an American who has done a lot of traveling in South America I find it is rather arrogant to call myself an American there as well. The problem being that there isn’t really a better term that makes sense. In Spanish it is estadounidense. (Literally United Statesean but that doesn’t make sense in English.)
 
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Wheels Of Confusion

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What I really don't understand after reading this article: who the f*** keeps a crayfish as a pet? I have seen lots of aquariums in people's home and if I ever saw a crayfish in one I would get out ASAP and call the police to avoid being trapped in that person's dungeon.
But they're so cute!

1151992_stock-photo-crayfish-head.jpg
 
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