I'm familiar with Vought's statements. He seemed to be talking about remaking the government to suit their agenda, not the massacre of civilians. His statements are despicable either way, of course.
ICE
- Thread starter poochyena
- Start date
Yes. There a reason that the phrase is, "a single bad apple spoils the barrel". It spoils the entire barrel. Even when individual cops aren't bastards on their own, they are still working with and helping others bastards be bastards.
Really it's a bit like safety culture in a nuclear reactor: the only way to be safe is to be obsessed with it. The same logic applies to policing just with policing by consent rather than safety. It needs to be the focus of the organization.
And have you reevaluated that statement given how they’re remaking the government and what they’re doing with it in front of your face?
I wouldn't be asking the question if I had considered it and deemed it to be clear.
Edit: I'm not missing the fact that they want to foment and escalate a fight. That's perfectly obvious. I'm interested in discussing what the specific goals of that fight are, and what that might look like in practice. Something more than vague statements about "eliminating the left" or "a fully authoritarian regime".
Last edited:
Vought is a worshiper at the church of American-first capitalism. Massacres are bad for business. There are plenty of ghouls in the administration that have a hard on for the ol’ ultra violence. Nothing I’ve read about Vought makes me think he’s one of them.
Since when is the overthrow of a stable democracy good for business? That’s what revolution means in this context. That’s his literal phrasing.
Also, in case it wasn’t obvious, he’s completely and entirely in bed with them. Engineering the project for them, makes you them.
They want an “illiberal democracy” where oligarchs, functionally, are the whole of the law. They want to buoy this system on ultranationalist, racist, and traditionalist rhetoric to cement support from the dominant socio-economic demographic. I gesture my arms at Russia and Hungary.
In short, they’re textually Fascists and that’s their project.
It's great business if you plan to be one of the ones contracted at Great Expense to help rebuild after.
Oh, absolutely, but that doesn’t seem to be the argument wrylachlan is making.
I mean, it obviously is. That video we saw of people coming out of their homes to blow a whistle when ICE showed up doesn't happen unless a sufficient portion of the population isn't indifferent. The reality is that what we are seeing in Minneapolis is street level organization where neighbors have pre-existing lines of communication and can be called to action within seconds should any of them notice ICE showing up.
And then there is the food drive. Where meals are being delivered to the houses of people who might be attacked by ICE. Members of the local watch keeping an eye on the walk to school can enjoy cups of coffee provided by neighbors. It's truly inspiring and we should all work to replicate it*.
* Link to testimony from Leeja Miller about what they are doing.
No, this is again an example of what happens when Trump realizes he is reaching beyond the limits of his actual power. If this string of government murders continues, he is certain to be impeached. So, because this isn't working for him, he is trying to change the narrative.
I mean, yes, it's true enough that public perception of their own people overreacting can be a problem for them. But, at the same time, fascist ideology demands violence. From that lens, this is what will to power looks like, and the real fascists among the Republican base are salivating for more. Meanwhile, the conservatives are staring, slack jawed with horror. I think that the conservatives still have enough power that it doesn't work. But, we will see.
Massacres are only bad for business in the short term. Illiberal democracy is valuable in the long term. They are quite happy to suffer a little pain on the way to their supposed promised land.
Oh, and, if you can arrange to be the company getting the contracts to rebuild what your revolution destroyed, well, that's pure profit. Since it's a single bidder contract, you can charge whatever you want which means you will be getting nice fat margins.
Edit: also, we should consider the likely role of state sponsored monopolies. After all, once you run the government, it's pretty easy to make sure bad things happen to your competition. And monopolies are where the old money comes from. And we all know the old money isn't green, but red.
Last edited:
I think I saw someone post something similar in one of the MANY threads going on but one of the reasons that I think you are seeing such a well organized response from the people of Minneapolis is that this isn't their first rodeo and a lot of the organizing lessons learned from the murder of George Floyd are being applied here.
I mean that’s the fascist gamble right there. Try to get enough power fast enough before public sentiment turns against your methods. On that front it does feel as though people are turning against their methods faster than they can add power. ICE recruitment isn’t fast enough and they don’t seem to be adding other bases of fascist power right now. Who knows what faction of brown shirts they’re stirring up in the shadows, but right now it looks like all the focus is on ICE/CBP and public opinion is turning.
And it seems likely that we are going to leave Trump in charge to try again. The Democrats are coming to "don't step on our throat too hard, daddy".
I mean the GOP has been playing footsies with the Devil for 70 years. 100% Vought is comfortable hanging with Miller if it gets his agenda through.
Sure. I’m not going to cry if Vought goes to the gallows in Nuremberg 2.0, but the initial question was whether we think he’s one who actively wants the massacres. My read is “no, that would be Miller”. I could be wrong.
He recognizes that, to get the kind of power he wants, people are going to have to die. Does he want this, no, not really, but he's totally OK with it as a cost. And, so long as he believes it to be the cost, he will pursue their deaths.
At a certain point, it starts to feel like splitting hairs to differentiate between (1) those chiefly motivated by power and greed, but perfectly willing to embrace cruelty, bigotry, and abuse of power to get there, vs. (2) those chiefly motivated by the opportunity to be cruel, vindictive, and/or bigoted, and canny enough to funnel any resulting profit to profiteers who will keep enabling them.
Or maybe that's not true, and it's a useful distinction after all... but they're definitely two sides of the same horrible symbiotic cycle that's going on.
Or maybe that's not true, and it's a useful distinction after all... but they're definitely two sides of the same horrible symbiotic cycle that's going on.
Evil symbolism in that it is basically half of a swastika. Not See's bringing Nazi back mid process.
I don't think there is much difference between Vought and Miller in substance. Both want to exerise power, and while Vought may not express it in the same way as Miller does, his moves are just as objectively dangerous. For instance, how many women will die due to his support of banning abortion?
ICE approval is at net -16
edit; forgot to link the source https://echeloninsights.com/in-the-news/january-2026-verified-voter-omnibus/
edit; forgot to link the source https://echeloninsights.com/in-the-news/january-2026-verified-voter-omnibus/
^
And after looking through the crosstabs, the demographics leaned heavier towards old conservatives living in the south. So this poll is a best case scenario for ICE.
And after looking through the crosstabs, the demographics leaned heavier towards old conservatives living in the south. So this poll is a best case scenario for ICE.
Reports are coming in that Bovino and "some" ice agents will be leaving "Minneapolis". I've seen a picture of a CNN broadcast saying they're all leaving, but nobody else reporting that. There's concern in outstate that leaving Minneapolis is distinct from leaving Minnesota (though this source calls out Minnesota), or that this is just a change in tactics. But there are signs of cracks in the resolve.
https://www.kare11.com/article/news...esday/89-d356558c-2a72-406a-ac12-733ba805e27d
https://www.kare11.com/article/news...esday/89-d356558c-2a72-406a-ac12-733ba805e27d
Nothing confirmed yet, but
https://apnews.com/article/shooting...tion-lawsuit-5bd12d70d3c76bfe5eacd802ce7480a7
https://apnews.com/article/shooting...tion-lawsuit-5bd12d70d3c76bfe5eacd802ce7480a7
Also, has anyone noticed those ICE ads with religious overtones quoting the Bible? God what a perversion. After all, it was Jesus himself who said "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angles [...] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me [...] truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me". That word, "stranger", in the Greek it's "xenos". That's the same "xenos" in "xenophobe". And, yet, here a bunch of 'Christians' are signing up to go and unwelcome immigrants. It's like they want to burn in hell.
I'm pretty sure that this is the wrong read. This isn't a sign of cracks in resolve, it's a sign of cracks in power. Most likely, they are going to relocate to some other city and hope things go better there.
Haven't looked at it in detail, but it looks like people are dramatically opposed to what ICE is doing, but just as opposed to anyone doing anything about it.
After Saturday, it doesn't look like this is ICE's purpose.
I always consider the "End Time" is hard to predict and we are told to not try to time/predict it (and Christian are not supposed to try). However, some of the recent events are really on the nose.
Last edited:
From TFA:
So Trump doesn't give the smallest shit that people are being murdered in the streets, he's just unhappy that it makes his administration look bad. Yeah, that totally tracks.
Big difference. Neither Lincoln nor FDR were interested in subverting democracy. Trump and his allies assuredly are. This has been evident for some time, and anyone supporting him after 1/6 is complicit.
Trump has little to no control over elections. There isn't much he can actually do to stop elections. States run elections, not the federal government.
Election can be disrupted with ICE or other groups. We have heard stories of harassment long before Trump was in office (2016). If the federal government chooses to stand behind such disruption, there can be a lot of damage to the elections.
Last edited:
Which is something the GOP has been attempting to do an end run on for some time under spurious claims of voter fraud. Not to mention weakening the VRA and attempting to invalidate mail-in voting. It’s been a long game they have been playing.
This is what I saw from Newsom online:
Source: NY Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/26/us/politics/democrats-shutdown-ice-shooting.html
Source: NY Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/26/us/politics/democrats-shutdown-ice-shooting.html
That might be a good thing. Easier to outrun and more timid than the thugs they've been putting on the street.
For 2000 years generation after generation has gone to their graves believing "this generation will not pass away before" all the things happen.
It's always been the end time, but the end of what? It's never the time immediately before the Jesus comes on clouds of glory. It's always the time right before What Comes Next. Those who profess to know What Comes Next have almost always been spectacularly wrong.
States need to act proactively and make it a capital crime to interfere with another person's right to vote. Then enforce it by all means in their power.
That and push for impeachment of Bovino, Noem, and everybody up and down the chain of command between Trump and the assholes that are terrorizing the people.
I'm starting to think that having a malignant narcissist as CIC might be the greatest obstacle to the fascist project. His underlings have to continually thread the needle of advancing their agenda while satisfying Trump's need for constant aggrandizement, and that's looking increasingly impossible, at least for the clown car of incompetents he's surrounded himself with.
He tried, or did you forget his 2020 calls to Georgia's election officials to find him a few hundred votes in key districts?
Why stop elections, that's too overt and obvious and clearcut. The person in charge of state elections has a lot of leeway on how to influence an election. They control which precincts are closed & opened, which means they can ensure lines are too long for people to wait in in blue areas, and only 15 minutes in red areas when it can make a material difference in an election. It's already been done, we've seen it on the news in the last I dunno-how-many Presidential elections.
We saw it in Texas where state Republicans changed the voting law so that counties can now only place a SINGLE legal ballot box to drop off mail in ballots. Imagine that, a single place to drop off your vote that could potentially be a three hour drive, and has to serve a county with a population size anywhere from 2 up to 5 million people. It's a great way to quash blue voters in mostly blue cities to influence red state elections. The Texas supreme court upheld it, too. Yet states on the west coast seem to have ballot dropoff boxes that outnumber even the blue USPS mailboxes. Texas did this in the name of elections integrity just before the 2024 election, you see.
State election officials in dozens of states have been replaced with pro-MAGA individuals. They can easily adopt other methods to influence elections, such as throwing out voter registration rolls, changing staffing levels (and # of voting machines) allocated to individual precincts, or sneakily changing the rules to unregister people that haven't voted in the previous X number of elections. Texas has done all this before, such as they changed the rules to purge 'inactive' voters and subsequently dropped more than a million names off the rolls just before the 2024 election. Texas also adjusted voting laws so that when doing vote by mail, signatures have to be applied in multiple places including externally on the mailing envelope. Since many people didn't sign the mailing envelope itself their mail-in ballots were rejected.
How about an easier scenario. The Justice Department has asked states for their voter rolls with an eye toward purging ineligible voters Texas already handed them over and begun purging yet more people off the state voter rolls. If your state purges you off the voter registration, are you guaranteed to be notified? In most cases you are not, and when you find out by showing up to vote it's already too late to reregister. You can cast a provisional ballot which are handed out to placate people, but those are not usually counted without good cause, and failing to be registered is not one of them. The Trump administration has already proven all the people running it are liars, it wouldn't be a stretch for someone to intentionally or otherwise pass on misleading information to a state, and the state itself then incorrectly purges legitimate voters off the state's rolls. What seems like an insignificant number of voters at the state level would still be enough to swing a single county's results.
MAGA has taken unprecedented power over state voting systems in this country. But even before that votes have been influenced, remember the whole hanging chads affair? Votes were being tossed out because of how many corners the chad was hanging from. More votes were being tossed out because signatures didn't match... people used print in one, but cursive in another. Used initials in one, yet spelled their name out in another. Used a middle initial in one place, but not another. They came up with all kinds of justifications for tossing out votes, and if SCOTUS hadn't intervened things would've continued to degenerate.
Hell, if you look at the street sign on both ends of my block, the name ends in Drive. But if you try to mail me something then USPS, Fedex, Google maps, and the entire world will correct the street name to Road. In a digital world of information there's plenty of ways to adjust rulesets to disqualify someone when something doesn't perfectly align or match up, and with the feds now perusing voting registration rolls and comparing the data across all existing government databases, you can expect mismatches to occur. So even when there are no nefarious intentions at all people are going to be at risk of being erroneously purged from state voting rolls if their state agrees to hand over voting registrars to the Trump admin.
One might scoff at having to register to vote as being an inconvenience, but in Texas there's no way for us to register to vote online. That option was removed decades ago. And since there are existing deadline dates you must register before to even vote in elections, there are a lot of hurdles for anyone stuck trying to register last minute to vote here. And again, in Texas if you are de-registered you're not guaranteed to be informed about it either.