Scotttheking

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Huh? Like how long are common people willing to suffer because they’re on strike?
If we look to history, a lot.
Looking towards the civil rights movement, can give you an idea of how much effort can be needed. Here’s some examples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_bus_boycott
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto_riots_(1964–1969)
https://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/montgomery-alabama-students-sit-us-civil-rights-1960
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Washington
 
I literally didn’t understand their post. The things they stated were a contest between two things.

I was trying to clarify if one side of that contest was the duration of the common people suffering, where that suffering was due to the fact that they were striking or something else that I couldn’t derive from the text.
 
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Thegn

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I literally didn’t understand their post. The things they stated were a contest between two things.

I was trying to clarify if one side of that contest was the duration of the common people suffering, where that suffering was due to the fact that they were striking or something else that I couldn’t derive from the text.
Clarifying: It's overall suffering. People will suffer from not having an income and not being able to access services. They will also suffer if the controlling force (ICE/police/military if the president invokes the insurrection act) attempts to suppress the protest.
 
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Wow. I gotta say, making it hard and time consuming for ICE goons to take a dump is a fucking brilliant strategy. Even one goon ending up with a pantload has got to be enormously demoralizing.
Let them put on some Depends (probably one of the worst options for adult diapers anyway) and go without public toilets entirely :rollpoop:
 

Megalodon

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It's against the rules to tell other users to ignore another user.
Ejected from thread for 1 days – (Jan 23, 2026 at 10:27 AM)
ICE disbanding.

But for this ICE leaving MN and never returning. That's my bar.

Fair enough, thanks.

I think everyone else should take note of this and ignore questions from this poster because this is a form of doomerism. The idea is that any action that doesn't accomplish 100% of everything in one fell swoop rounds down to having no effect. This allows the poster to adopt an Activism Understander role where they can sit in judgement of all the cute little ideas everyone has and lecture you about how naive you must be think it might be worth doing. It is functionally identical to arguing "no one should ever do anything".
 
SarahSparkles
SarahSparkles
It's not the political view or sentiment that's at issue. It's how you're expressing it. You are allowed to share your views on "doomerism" as long as you don't attack anyone specific here. This is the second ejection in the span of a week for attacking people.

sword_9mm

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Fair enough, thanks.

I think everyone else should take note of this and ignore questions from this poster because this is a form of doomerism. The idea is that any action that doesn't accomplish 100% of everything in one fell swoop rounds down to having no effect. This allows the poster to adopt an Activism Understander role where they can sit in judgement of all the cute little ideas everyone has and lecture you about how naive you must be think it might be worth doing. It is functionally identical to arguing "no one should ever do anything".

What's your bar?

I'm not lecturing anyone. I'm asking 'what will this accomplish' and getting nothing back.

What will 1 day of this accomplish that a summer worth of protests couldn't back in 2020?
 
220-207 - with 7 Democrats voting for it.
Once again, proof that just voting democrat is not an automatic fix...

What's this 'strike' supposed to accomplish?

Piss off the governor enough to send in the Guard?

ICE/Federalis won't give a shit so what's the outcome? More impotent rage or are these strikers going to fight ICE in the streets? I'm sure they have enough guns.
Solidarity. Widespread acknowledgement that what's going on is wrong, which itself also serves as irrefutable proof against false media & conservative narratives.

More people out on the streets protesting means ICE is going to have a LOT more harassment and people following them around, and so ICE will find it significantly more difficult to do anything, even while everything they actually do will be recorded from dozens of angles. Thousands of those ICE agents don't live there either, guaranteed that some of them are going to find out living out of a motel more unpleasant with so many places closed down.

So a show of 'we're unhappy with this'?

That's fine but I still don't see what that will accomplish. Maybe I'm not thinking outside the box enough.
The problem is with that attitude none of the successful marches and protests you've read about in history would've ever taken place. Only holding protests or strikes when you already are about to win does miss the original point of the exercise. The thing about marches and protests is they take time, you have to do multiple of them, and it's a slow building process. MLK didn't do a single march, he didn't participate in a half-dozen.... MLK was part of multiple hundreds of marches, protests, and sit-ins during his all-too-short life. Hundreds.
 
Clarifying: It's overall suffering. People will suffer from not having an income and not being able to access services. They will also suffer if the controlling force (ICE/police/military if the president invokes the insurrection act) attempts to suppress the protest.
Got it. That’s not really a contest then, is it?

The Feds don’t care that Minnesotans are suffering. Outside of like maaaaybe a dozen specific enterprises, the Feds also don’t care if businesses are suffering. Quite the contrary. The Feds are totally into all those people suffering. They win twice! They get to violently terrorize common people AND watch the common people induce their own additional suffering that doesn’t impact the Feds at all. Pretty good deal if you’re the Feds.

So, I guess based on that… I don’t really understand who the audience for this strike is, nor what its demands are, nor who the collaborative party to meet those demands is supposed to be.

Is it the MN governor? Is it the MSP mayor? Like, who’s supposed to intervene in some way to get a positive outcome from the strike and what are they supposed to do? Because if the idea is that it’s the Feds that will ostensibly positively modify their behavior based on it, then I cannot connect the dots to get there. It’s no contest. The Feds will let it go on indefinitely and probably enjoy the view.
 
They just want a left-wing J6.
They want ICE out of MSP, out of MN, and ideally disbanded altogether and are specifically asking for an explanation of how a proposal results at any of those outcomes.

I also can’t connect the dots so far as described.

I get how the Black Panthers patrolling their communities helps reduce the number of soft targets and creates a disincentive for ICE & CBP to engage and creates an incentive for them to move onto a different target.

I get how neighbors forming rapid response groups and swarming ICE & CBP to outnumber them 10:1 or 20:1 has a similar effect as the above to dissuade the lesser ambitious ICE & CBP agents.

I can connect the dots between the incentives, influences, impediments, and the outcome of a change in the opponents’ behaviors.

The incentives, influences, and impediments of the strike don’t line up really at all with producing a change for the Feds or their agents. So, I have to assume that the strike is for some other purpose, like trying to get local officials to be doing more?

Because the Feds aren’t going to have any sort of problem with a strike lasting a thousand years any more than they’re going to care that it lasts a day. As far as the Feds are concerned, the entirety of MSP could walk outside, douse themselves in gasoline, and turn themselves into hundreds of thousands of human torches, and the Feds would warm their hands on the flames and be thankful they have less work to do.
 

Nvoid82

Ars Scholae Palatinae
735
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The 7 democrats are cowards.

So, I guess based on that… I don’t really understand who the audience for this strike is, nor what its demands are, nor who the collaborative party to meet those demands is supposed to be.

The audience is other Minnesotans and people throughout the nation. Compare and contrast the No Kings demonstrations, the general strike isn’t meant to be the end but a point on the escalation path. People not working frees up a lot of people to be in the street harassing ICE, which emboldens others to do so. It’s about being a problem.
 

sword_9mm

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So how is this supposed to do anything that all those protests back in summer of 2020 didn't? I know they're not the exact same but all that mess in 2020 did nothing much for all the effort that was expended.

Again why do the federalis give a shit about this? I can't see why they would care and if anything would probably love to see them all freeze to death.
 

Scotttheking

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13,194
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Does it.

Have they left?

Of course they're going to whine about stuff until they get the kill orders. Then the fun really begins.
Do you believe that they’ll leave if they’re asked nicely?
Got it. That’s not really a contest then, is it?

The Feds don’t care that Minnesotans are suffering. Outside of like maaaaybe a dozen specific enterprises, the Feds also don’t care if businesses are suffering. Quite the contrary. The Feds are totally into all those people suffering. They win twice! They get to violently terrorize common people AND watch the common people induce their own additional suffering that doesn’t impact the Feds at all. Pretty good deal if you’re the Feds.

So, I guess based on that… I don’t really understand who the audience for this strike is, nor what its demands are, nor who the collaborative party to meet those demands is supposed to be.

Is it the MN governor? Is it the MSP mayor? Like, who’s supposed to intervene in some way to get a positive outcome from the strike and what are they supposed to do? Because if the idea is that it’s the Feds that will ostensibly positively modify their behavior based on it, then I cannot connect the dots to get there. It’s no contest. The Feds will let it go on indefinitely and probably enjoy the view.
Who is the audience? I would argue it is the rest of America.
I was speaking to an Arsian yesterday, and they commented that ICE the wrong city to start in. The thing happening in other cities didn’t make their awareness until a white person was shot and killed (vs. Chicago brown).
The goal of protest is to raise awareness, raise friction, build momentum. Nothing will change overnight.
But there will be more protests, more action, and eventually, slowly, then quickly, something happens.
So if you are looking for a single action, a single day, to have a massive change, you’ll never get it.
Look at this as a start, not as the end.
 

Thegn

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14,137
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Do you believe that they’ll leave if they’re asked nicely?

Who is the audience? I would argue it is the rest of America.
I was speaking to an Arsian yesterday, and they commented that ICE the wrong city to start in. The thing happening in other cities didn’t make their awareness until a white person was shot and killed (vs. Chicago brown).
The goal of protest is to raise awareness, raise friction, build momentum. Nothing will change overnight.
But there will be more protests, more action, and eventually, slowly, then quickly, something happens.
So if you are looking for a single action, a single day, to have a massive change, you’ll never get it.
Look at this as a start, not as the end.
Hi, that was me. I think it wasn’t so much I wasn’t aware that ICE hadn’t been making the rounds or done awful things; rather that I’ve been kind of disconnecting myself from the news (I know, I’m reading the fucking SB) to preserve my sanity. I’m getting a drip feed of stuff from my wife (brown, terrified), the SB, and whatever other news sources I happen to read, while we are working on getting out.

Otherwise I agree that protests do raise awareness - a one day general strike in one city ain’t going to do jack shit to the admin, but it does get other protesters on attention. Recognition that no change has resulted will either cause people to give up or come back with a stronger response. If the entire country shuts down for a week I think that would have a much stronger impact. I don’t know that would be enough to move this admin, but they would definitely have to react in some way.
 

poochyena

Ars Scholae Palatinae
5,079
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So how is this supposed to do anything that all those protests back in summer of 2020 didn't? I know they're not the exact same but all that mess in 2020 did nothing much for all the effort that was expended.
The June 2020 protests boosted Biden's popularity and helped him win the election
1769185836994.png


Again, what are you doing to advance the step of abolishing ICE?
 

Matisaro

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Once again, proof that just voting democrat is not an automatic fix...

Hardly, 7 traitors out of 200+ who live in reddish districts in most cases does not imply the party as a whole is guilty and their vote was meaningless it would have passed either way.

In addition to everything else, voting to primary the democrats towards less of those assholes and then voting in the general is the only fix using the system as is.
 

Macam

Ars Tribunus Militum
2,297

Gisboth

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Hardly, 7 traitors out of 200+ who live in reddish districts in most cases does not imply the party as a whole is guilty and their vote was meaningless it would have passed either way.

In addition to everything else, voting to primary the democrats towards less of those assholes and then voting in the general is the only fix using the system as is.

I would point you back to this point then.

Note also that Jeffries explicitly did not whip the vote against it, so he wanted it to pass.

So it's hardly "just a few people", it's most of the democratic establishment, or did you forget that democratic leadership has done the exact same thing for two of Trump's big spending bills too? Schumer decided to not officially instruct his colleagues to vote against the last one which is why they broke ranks and the shutdown ended. All over a "promise" to consider holding a vote on the ACA extensions... we all saw how that promise went, too. The point of the shutdown pain was to force a compromise, not just capitulate a second time with zero gains after the American public pays the price. I could make the argument that the entire shutdown was just performance art for democrats.

Unless the guy croaks from self-medicating against his physician's advice, we have three more years of Trump. Just watch how many more times democrats posture, wring their hands, and otherwise bemoan the consequences even while they vote to pass spending bills without even getting compromises out of it. The problems plaguing our country will not go away with the current democratic establishment in power, at best things will be shuffled to the back burner for a term. If you think the democratic party learned anything from shafting Bernie Sanders in 2016, just look again at how cold the reception was for Mamdani within party leadership.
 
Like I said, short of an armed uprising, nothing will satisfy them.
I would settle for the local authorities being explicitly used to make arrests of kidnappers, violent assailants, and being utilized to provide protection for citizens to public places (e.g. schools, state & municipal property, etc.).

Again, what are you doing to advance the step of abolishing ICE?
I wish more people would just be honest about being too scared and risk averse to do anything differently.

It’s one thing to not have the stomach for the risk of what could work to change the situation and admit it, but it’s a whole other thing to start at the level of risk you’re already comfortable with and claim emphatically that it’s going to be obviously effective. It’s a pernicious thing that liberals do too often. Wherein they try to recast risk-aversion as courageous or righteous shrewdness and cunning regardless of the actual context or evidence. Sometimes risk-aversion is just risk-aversion.

I don’t know anything about what @sword_9mm does or has done, but my criticisms, questions, and prosecutions come from a place of having invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in “normal” political activism. Spending many hundreds of thousands more on specific support for relief, assistance, and service to the marginalized of the sort that the extremists are exploiting and targeting. Having been gassed, sprayed, and shot at. Having dealt with relentless death threats for me and my family at various times.

It’s unlikely that I’m going to lose any sort of, “Oh yeah! Well what are you doing!?” pissing contest here. So, when I’m questioning things, it’s coming from a place of experiencing what hasn’t and doesn’t seem to work and when proposals seem pretty orthogonal to the stated goals.

I don’t start considering or exploring a solution space for achieving a goal by first constraining myself to the level or risk I’m currently able or willing to tolerate. That’s true for me personally, professionally, and politically. I start at considering what could work regardless of my level of risk tolerance, and then if I think it’s too risky I either admit that to myself and understand I’m extremely unlikely to achieve my goal, or I figure out what I think I’ll need to do to be able to adjust my risk tolerance.

It’s fine to be afraid, but being afraid isn’t automatically wisdom. Sometimes it’s just fear.
 

ProphetM

Senator
29,618
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Hardly, 7 traitors out of 200+ who live in reddish districts in most cases does not imply the party as a whole is guilty and their vote was meaningless it would have passed either way.

The vote was 220-207. So 7 democrats switching to 'no' would have meant failing, 213-214.
 

Matisaro

Ars Legatus Legionis
24,219
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I would point you back to this point then.



So it's hardly "just a few people", it's most of the democratic establishment, or did you forget that democratic leadership has done the exact same thing for two of Trump's big spending bills too? Schumer decided to not officially instruct his colleagues to vote against the last one which is why they broke ranks and the shutdown ended. All over a "promise" to consider holding a vote on the ACA extensions... we all saw how that promise went, too. The point of the shutdown pain was to force a compromise, not just capitulate a second time with zero gains after the American public pays the price. I could make the argument that the entire shutdown was just performance art for democrats.

Unless the guy croaks from self-medicating against his physician's advice, we have three more years of Trump. Just watch how many more times democrats posture, wring their hands, and otherwise bemoan the consequences even while they vote to pass spending bills without even getting compromises out of it. The problems plaguing our country will not go away with the current democratic establishment in power, at best things will be shuffled to the back burner for a term. If you think the democratic party learned anything from shafting Bernie Sanders in 2016, just look again at how cold the reception was for Mamdani within party leadership.

Stop extrapolating nefariousness from bog standard bullshit.

Why would he whip a fucking vote he knew would pass? Leadership does not equal the party.
 
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Scifigod

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
8,797
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AP Livestream from the protest in downtown Minneapolis. Comments on the stream are as expected, a dumpster fire of trolls. Current temp is listed at -9F with a feels like of -26.

View: https://www.youtube.com/live/1ekg0Pdjq9I


Also gotta laugh at the random background chatter picked up:
1000001551.png

Edit: and of course the stream ends pretty much immediately after I hit the post button 🤦‍♂️if I find a different live stream I make a new post.
 
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Wheels Of Confusion

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75,836
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Since May of last year, ICE has been quietly and secretively circulating a memo about legal counsel greenlighting the use of "administrative" warrants instead of judicial ones to search people's property and make arrest attempts.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/ice-memo-allows-agents-enter-homes-judicial-warrant/story?id=129436766
A U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) memo issued in May authorizes agents to enter the homes of those suspected of being in the U.S. illegally with an administrative warrant -- not a warrant signed by a judge -- in order to make immigration arrests, according to a whistleblower group, which says it has shared the "secretive" memo with Congress.
Traditionally, ICE agents have needed a warrant signed by a judge in order to enter the home of someone suspected of being in the U.S. illegally. However, the guidance allegedly given by ICE in May suggests they can rely on administrative warrants, which are authored by officials within the Department of Homeland Security -- and in most cases by ICE agents.
[...]
The group Whistleblower Aid says it represents two anonymous U.S. government officials. The whistleblower group argues the ICE memo violates the Fourth Amendment and DHS' own policy manual.
Typically, ICE arrests have been limited to public places because the administrative warrants, known as Form I-205, have not been considered a warrant issued by a "neutral and detached magistrate," the whistleblower group said in its complaint to Congress.
"Only a warrant issued by a 'neutral and detached magistrate' would authorize ICE Agents to enter or search nonpublic areas such as an alien’s residence," the group said.
"Upon information and belief, and consistent with the May 12 Memo, instructors for new ICE recruits are directed to teach that Form I-205 allows ICE agents to arrest aliens in their home - without consent to enter the residence and without judicial warrant," the whistleblower complaint stated.
[...]
The memo, according to the disclosure, was tightly held at DHS.
"The May 12 Memo has been provided to select DHS officials who are then directed to verbally brief the new policy for action," the complaint states. "Those supervisors then show the Memo to some employees, like our clients, and direct them to read the Memo and return it to the supervisor."
The agents are verbally given this training, but not in writing, the complaint said.
The rationalization is that these administrative warrants are typically issued only after, for example, a judge has given a Final Order of Removal for a person, and thus all due process is already exhausted.