wallinbl

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Dem Congresspeople attempted to enter the ICE facility for oversight and were turned away, which is illegal. Same thing happened with DOGE and Musk, and my recollection is they didn't fight that. The Dems need to do more than just make a viral video - they need to actually force these issues.

The released statement from the Minnesota Fraternal Order of Police is awful. Certainly undermines Walz's comments.
 

Matisaro

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He fired at least the last two shots after he was already out of the path of the vehicle, and even when he fired the first one, it was already turning away from him. He pulled the gun before the vehicle started moving in his direction.

He switched phone hands on his recording too before pulling his gun, imho shows he intended to murder her the second she started to move as he knew she would when his two thug buddies rushed her door.
 

Diabolical

Senator
28,973
Subscriptor++
The released statement from the Minnesota Fraternal Order of Police is awful.

I don’t doubt it is.

Question -> have you seen it anywhere actually reputable? The only places I am seeing it are Facebook, twitter, and reddit posts. The only news organizations that seem to be covering it are bot aggregators, Newsmax, Breitbart, and those quoting them. It makes it difficult to verify when the sources are this questionable. :\ Since I don’t have Twitter or Facebook accounts, trying to navigate the MNFOP “official” accounts is… difficult.
 

wallinbl

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Question -> have you seen it anywhere actually reputable? The only places I am seeing it are Facebook, twitter, and reddit posts.
It's posted on the Facebook page linked from their website. They're also reposting Newsmax and Alpha News on their Facebook. Their position on it is quite clear.

It's reposted by reputable academics on BlueSky as well.
 
They could at minimum announce an arrest warrant.
The playbook from the fascist side is to do whatever they want to push forward their agenda, and dare the other side to try and stop them.

My understanding is that there are little victories here and there where a judge stops something or slows something down, and then they try the same thing a different way.

I totally agree putting an arrest warrant would be a good start. Force them to defend their actions and continue to sound stupid, but as an outsider (Canadian), I'm looking at this and saying how in the world can states not treat this as an existential threat? Do whatever you have to do. Bring a lawsuit against the federal government, or ICE, or whoever you have to, and get state judges to declare that their presence in the state is illegal, or is limited to certain areas (specifically the border zone - not downtown Minneapolis). Force Trump's incompetent lawyers to take up the SCOTUS's docket time to defend their thuggery.

Vance says they have 'absolute immunity'. They do, until someone tells them they don't and enforces it. Either you don't care and you've given up, or you have to do everything possible to make it stop.

Yeah, I realize it's easy to say this or type this, and it's hard to actually do something about, but - am I wrong?

Put this another way - if I'm Tim Walz, does my existence as governor matter even a little bit if I'm not spending every working moment trying to mobilize every person and asset I can to stop ICE from unaliving people, because if it continues, the game is essentially over? They can walk into his office next, and when he stands up say that they feared for their lives because there was some Mexican-looking dude behind him and shoot him, with no repercussions.

Tell me what I'm missing here. I don't think there is anything I'm missing.
 
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The playbook from the fascist side is to do whatever they want to push forward their agenda, and dare the other side to try and stop them.

My understanding is that there are little victories here and there where a judge stops something or slows something down, and then they try the same thing a different way.

I totally agree putting an arrest warrant would be a good start. Force them to defend their actions and continue to sound stupid, but as an outsider (Canadian), I'm looking at this and saying how in the world can states not treat this as an existential threat? Do whatever you have to do. Bring a lawsuit against the federal government, or ICE, or whoever you have to, and get state judges to declare that their presence in the state is illegal, or is limited to certain areas (specifically the border zone - not downtown Minneapolis). Force Trump's incompetent lawyers to take up the SCOTUS's docket time to defend their thuggery.

Vance says they have 'absolute immunity'. They do, until someone tells them they don't and enforces it. Either you don't care and you've given up, or you have to do everything possible to make it stop.

Yeah, I realize it's easy to say this or type this, and it's hard to actually do something about, but - am I wrong?

Put this another way - if I'm Tim Walz, does my existence as governor matter even a little bit if I'm not spending every working moment trying to mobilize every person and asset I can to stop ICE from unaliving people, because if it continues, the game is essentially over? They can walk into his office next, and when he stands up say that they feared for their lives because there was some Mexican-looking dude behind him and shoot him, with no repercussions.

Tell me what I'm missing here. I don't think there is anything I'm missing.

They are afraid. If they pull the trigger, they worry that they won't get the support they needed. It is very possible that state law enforcement or national guards will side with federal. They are hoping that they can last until elections and hoping elections could save USA/themselves. Unfortunately, there is risk of not pulling the trigger as well. At certain point, there is no more trigger to pull.
 
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They are afraid. If they pull the trigger, they worry that they won't get the support they needed. It is very possible that state law enforcement or national guards will side with federal. They are hoping that they can last until elections and hoping elections could save USA/themselves. Unifortunitely, there is risk of not pulling the trigger as well. At certain point, there is no more trigger to pull.
Then the game is over.
 

Coppercloud

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Bring a lawsuit against the federal government, or ICE, or whoever you have to, and get state judges to declare that their presence in the state is illegal, or is limited to certain areas (specifically the border zone - not downtown Minneapolis).

am I wrong?
So, not being a lawyer, I believe that this won't fly. My understanding of ice and border control authority is it extends 100 miles from any border and international airports are considered a border for these purposes. Perhaps a lawsuit could change this, but as it stands they're within the judicial rulings on what their authority includes when doing operations in downtown Minneapolis.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but this is how I understand things as they stand. Furthermore that might only be a restriction on border control, and not specifically including ICE.
 

Megalodon

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Then the game is over.

No, now the game is promulgating the understanding that resistance will not and can not be mediated by the media or the Dem party, it's going to have to be organic and ground up, and if Dems are involved it will be because they are humiliated into it and are the last to get on board.

Look at the tactics that are successful on the ground against ICE. Even if they're willing to use deadly violence, what we've seen is that that mobilizes the public much more than the people it scares into submission, and the ICE thugs are fundamentally cowards that can be bullied into retreat in virtually every case. As I saw on bsky:

https://bsky.app/profile/louisevans.bsky.social/post/3m42akgl6x224

I’m just saying when your high kit troops in boots are retreating from a similar number of irregulars, some of them barefoot, in an engagement you chose, your goose is COOKED cooked

And the fact that these protests and confrontations may lead to more ICE killings of the public is unfortunately just a necessary aspect of mobilization now. For now, I think the balance of tradeoffs is for the protests to continue to be non-violent on the protest side with the resulting killings being used to further mobilize the public.

There's people that clearly understand this. Bishop Rob Hirschfeld of the Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire has asked clergy to get their affairs in order in preparation for putting themselves between ICE and the vulnerable. They understand what they're being asked to do.

https://bsky.app/profile/clancyny.bsky.social/post/3mc4ci3a4mc2b
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
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in other words, willing to sacrifice their wealth, their comfort, and in some cases their lives.

That's the thing, if you want to deploy bread and circuses to keep the masses compliant, you have to actually provide bread and circuses. Not tariff half the stuff, jack up the prices on the other half for the AI bubble, blow up the economy when the bubble pops, and run all the circus performers out of town. The US is already in a jobs recession. We're running mighty short on compensatory pathways to keep anger from solidifying.

That I do understand. Let's see if enough are willing to do it.

I think the number of priests being shot that it takes to significantly amplify the protests is not a large number.
 
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According to the mayor, property damage is an arrest-able offense, but murder is not.


View: https://bsky.app/profile/jcollins.bsky.social/post/3mc3kgascfs2y

Yeah. Just like Pritzker, he talks a good game. Very impassioned. When it comes time to actually pick sides? He’s going to choose to protect power because protecting power is less scary.

Nobody in any official office wants to risk any kind of conflict and so civilians will be indefinitely run roughshod over until they’re the ones who decide to make a difference on their own. It’s not their job, but they’re going to have to do the work, and they’re going to find that the parts of the government that are supposed to be on their side… aren’t.
 

Coriolanus

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
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Megalodon

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Their fear or inconvenience is a sacrifice you are willing to make.

I don't set out to keep quoting MLK's Letter from Birmingham Jail, but people keep not getting it, and it keeps being the best articulation of the concept that I would only be plagiarizing if I tried to rewrite it in my own words.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

Protest must be disruptive to be effective. That is an absolute, inviolable requirement. If your demand is for an end to disruptive protest then that is the same as a demand for an end to protest, and that is not a demand that can be honored in good conscience while such injustice prevails. All else being equal of course it would be preferable to let the hotel guests get enough sleep to be up in time for their complementary waffle breakfast, but while their neighbors are being brutalized, betrayed, executed, imprisoned, and tortured, it would be an unforgivable betrayal of everyone including the hotel guests to allow their temporary, minor inconvenience to take priority over the lives and freedom of literally everyone else including them.
 

Lt_Storm

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20,285
Subscriptor++
A hotel is probably also holding guests who aren't ICE agents. Why make their lives miserable at night? Also, is there any confirmation that it did have ICE agents? Or was it just a rumor?
Because effective protest always affects otherwise uninvolved parties, which means that, if this were an actual rule for protest, only ineffective protests would be possible. So, this complaint applies to anything worth doing. The only real satisfaction to it is quiet surrender.
 

Quirinus

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
8,283
Subscriptor
A hotel is probably also holding guests who aren't ICE agents. Why make their lives miserable at night?

Was this serioulsy asked in good faith? You are concerned about guests in a building housing Gestapo? Holy hell.....

If I found out there were ICE in a hotel I was in, you can be damn sure I am moving on.
 

wallinbl

Ars Legatus Legionis
13,785
Subscriptor
Walz and Frey have very little chance of changing much - their police departments are not on their side on this issue. The argument is often that change should start local, so perhaps people should start pushing really hard on getting the pathetic insecure bigots out of uniform.

I don't see how that changes in the US. Policing is largely a blue collar job, and the training isn't significant. We are structurally set up to funnel in people that don't really understand the concepts behind rights and laws into a situation where we give them guns and substantial immunity. Much like we do with doctors and lawyers, we allow them to police themselves.
 

Sajuuk

Ars Legatus Legionis
13,280
A hotel is probably also holding guests who aren't ICE agents. Why make their lives miserable at night? Also, is there any confirmation that it did have ICE agents? Or was it just a rumor?
Some people in the diner aren’t racist, so why have a sit-in for civil rights and inconvenience the nice people who just want coffee?
 

Nvoid82

Ars Scholae Palatinae
735
Subscriptor
They are afraid. If they pull the trigger, they worry that they won't get the support they needed. It is very possible that state law enforcement or national guards will side with federal. They are hoping that they can last until elections and hoping elections could save USA/themselves. Unfortunately, there is risk of not pulling the trigger as well. At certain point, there is no more trigger to pull.


You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow... But the one great shocking occasion when tens or hundreds of thousands will join with you, ... never comes. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions, would have been sufficiently shocked ... but of course, this isn't the way it happens. In between comes all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you ... and you see that everything - everything - has changed ... Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.
Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45

They either stop it now or endorse more suffering. Rinse and repeat as “now” continues to occur.
 

Gary Patterson

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7,751
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As promised, ICE has started going door-to-door in Minnesota, breaking into homes without warrants and kidnapping the occupants, while crowds of protesters fecklessly stand around making noise and filming ICE's propaganda videos for them.
Could you stand in front of an angry man with a gun, who’s looking for any excuse to shoot you dead? Would you do that, knowing he will most likely get away with it and be cheered on by half the country as they’re told lies about you and your paid activism, your extremist Marxist political agenda?
Maybe hold back on accusations of fecklessness until after you’ve braved the murderous goons. I can’t fault anyone for not standing in front of a loaded gun held by a poorly trained killer.
 

Nvoid82

Ars Scholae Palatinae
735
Subscriptor
Could you stand in front of an angry man with a gun, who’s looking for any excuse to shoot you dead? Would you do that, knowing he will most likely get away with it and be cheered on by half the country as they’re told lies about you and your paid activism, your extremist Marxist political agenda?
Maybe hold back on accusations of fecklessness until after you’ve braved the murderous goons. I can’t fault anyone for not standing in front of a loaded gun held by a poorly trained killer.

Feckless may be a bit much, but we'd all be better off if we expected more of ourselves. Because I've been reading it lately,

You are an American,” he said again, smiling. “I will explain. There I was, in 1935, a perfect example of the kind of person who, with all his advantages in birth, in education, and in position, rules (or might easily rule) in any country. If I had refused to take the oath in 1935, it would have meant that thousands and thousands like me, all over Germany, were refusing to take it. Their refusal would have heartened millions. Thus the regime would have been overthrown, or, indeed, would never have come to power in the first place. The fact that I was not prepared to resist, in 1935, meant that all the thousands, hundreds of thousands, like me in Germany were also unprepared, and each one of these hundreds of thousands was, like me, a man of great influence or of great potential influence. Thus the world was lost.”
“You are serious?” I said.
“Completely,” he said. “These hundred lives I saved—or a thousand or ten as you will—what do they represent? A little something out of the whole terrible evil, when, if my faith had been strong enough in 1935, I could have prevented the whole evil.”
“Your faith?”
“My faith. I did not believe that I could ‘remove mountains.’ The day I said ‘No,’ I had faith. In the process of ‘thinking it over,’ in the next twenty-four hours, my faith failed me. So, in the next ten years, I was able to remove only anthills, not mountains.”

Excerpt From
They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45
Mayer, Milton

Everyone has a reason why they can't do what they know is right, but if they just did the right thing they'd have to worry a lot less about the reasons. Lots of people with more to lose have been willing to stand in front of an angry man with a gun, and the world is a better place for it. We can and should fault ourselves for unwillingness or inability to do so, because with enough people willing to do so no one would ever have to. Just stand in the way. Doing so may risk your life, but not doing so does not protect it. Instead it costs your dignity without so much as the promise of safety.
 

Xenocrates

Ars Tribunus Militum
2,490
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Great. Now the PotUS has openly said that Contempt of Cop is a capital crime, with the sentence to be passed immediately. I can't wait to see how this gets spun by the apologists.

ICE is not a police agency. They are a bunch of violent paramilitary extremists, where they demand you treat them as an authority if you want a chance to be treated as a human being. But, if they feel you aren't conciliatory enough, I guess your life is forfeit anyway. Absolutely disgusting, clearly authoritarian reasoning. Clear violation of the fundamental tenets of America.
 
D

Deleted member 28951

Guest
It's posted on the Facebook page linked from their website. They're also reposting Newsmax and Alpha News on their Facebook. Their position on it is quite clear.

It's reposted by reputable academics on BlueSky as well.
That's what comes of allowing police unions in the first place. There are better ways to do this, such as salaries, benefits & working conditions determined by a non-political public commission.
 
D

Deleted member 28951

Guest
So, not being a lawyer, I believe that this won't fly. My understanding of ice and border control authority is it extends 100 miles from any border and international airports are considered a border for these purposes. Perhaps a lawsuit could change this, but as it stands they're within the judicial rulings on what their authority includes when doing operations in downtown Minneapolis.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but this is how I understand things as they stand. Furthermore that might only be a restriction on border control, and not specifically including ICE.
It's my understanding the 100-mile limit is long gone.
ICE has terroriral jurisdiction in the entire territory of the US (states, DC, other territories) in all public areas. They supposedly need a warrant for entering places of worship, schools, and hospitals.
 

Megalodon

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Great. Now the PotUS has openly said that Contempt of Cop is a capital crime, with the sentence to be passed immediately. I can't wait to see how this gets spun by the apologists.

ICE is not a police agency. They are a bunch of violent paramilitary extremists, where they demand you treat them as an authority if you want a chance to be treated as a human being. But, if they feel you aren't conciliatory enough, I guess your life is forfeit anyway. Absolutely disgusting, clearly authoritarian reasoning. Clear violation of the fundamental tenets of America.
I can't help but think of this as a gift. Trump is about to re-learn one of history's most enduring lessons: if you are fighting an insurgency, and you go into a town and kill an insurgent, there are more insurgents when you leave than when you arrive.

This isn't an insurgency. Yet. But I don't think there's any escalation now that favors the regime. Watching how rapidly Minneapolis has organized and how quickly those lessons are being disseminated. Watching what's happening as they get drilled daily on how to respond. You have to keep the escalation quiet and something most people can ignore. You have to make go along to get along the optimal strategy. That is not what they're doing.
 

Megalodon

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I want everyone to look at this video and think very carefully about what it implies about how the public is responding to this:
View: https://bsky.app/profile/wedge.live/post/3mcb6afwogs2b


I was at a planned protest in San Francisco when Trump 1 did family separations. That protest was smaller than what they had going here in single digit seconds.

What the regime is doing is forcing people to organize locally with good opsec and practice rapid response and preparedness. He couldn't be making a worse mistake. These networks and mental habits will not go away. This is going to reshape the politics of the entire country for generations. This is at the level of the Vietnam War.

EDIT: I should also say, I have worked enough incident response to know that getting people to figure out they are in an emergency quicker than 5 minutes, or even like an hour, is like pulling teeth. To get single digit seconds response time means a large fraction of the people there are spending their days mentally rehearsing everything, looking at every passing car, etc. If they don't put their whistle lanyard on when they leave the house they feel naked. If you aren't doing that then the most most people can do in 10 seconds is look around like an idiot. This is so much more significant than a one-off protest because those vent anger more than anything else. These people are structuring their entire lives around it.
 
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Lt_Storm

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20,285
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It's my understanding the 100-mile limit is long gone.
ICE has terroriral jurisdiction in the entire territory of the US (states, DC, other territories) in all public areas. They supposedly need a warrant for entering places of worship, schools, and hospitals.
After this weekend, it seems that they are also deciding that they have jurisdiction in private spaces as well, as they have been invading people's homes on warrants that, legally speaking, give them no such authority; it's brownshirts doing blatant brownshirt stuff. Honestly, at this point, I suspect that they consider themselves quite above the law.
 
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KobayashiSaru

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4,211
Subscriptor++
It's my understanding the 100-mile limit is long gone.
ICE has terroriral jurisdiction in the entire territory of the US (states, DC, other territories) in all public areas. They supposedly need a warrant for entering places of worship, schools, and hospitals.


But not to tear gas schools as they are being let out
 
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