Feds ease rules for autonomous vehicle testing to compete with China

Domestic AVs can now get FMVSS exemptions for no rearview mirrors or steering wheels.

See full article...

 

[AusPeter]

Cue in the Luddites: "If the rulebook loosens, civilisation must surely perish, and Elon will personally run over the last pedestrian on the way to Mars."

A reality check, then. The existing FMVSS was written when “driver assistance” meant power steering. It mandates things like a steering column, even for vehicles with no human controls. That isn’t safety; it’s taxidermy. If Washington finally notices that Shanghai and Shenzhen are prototyping robo-buses by the hundreds, we should perhaps applaud the late awakening rather than clutch the pearls.

The comment-section worry beads rattle over “opaque contaminants” and “depth sensors,” yet ignore two billion vision-only FSD miles already logged in mixed traffic while Cruise, Argo and the other lidar darlings stumbled or died of cost overruns. Data, not dogma, is the arbiter of safety, and data accrues faster when you let the fleet iterate instead of embalming it in 1970-era prose.

If China wins the AV race, the same commenters will chant that America “fell behind through hubris.” When DOT tries to avoid that fate, they cry deregulation apocalypse. Show us an AV programme throttled by less regulation yet more carnage, or concede that progress occasionally requires retiring the horse-and-buggy section of the statute book.

Remind me again when Tesla delivered on its promise of FSD which it has been touting for almost 10 years.

Or remind me why Tesla’s current offerings are stuck at level 2 while companies like Audi are actively releasing level 3 systems?

 

[hillspuck]

That's the thing that keeps surprising me every time I remember it. He won the popular vote. It falsified my belief that Trump supporters were the crazy minority. No matter how much I thought it was obvious Trump is a bad idea, apparently I'm the one in the minority.

I'm slightly consoled by just how flawed the process of selecting the candidate to oppose him was. We never got a candidate that was tested by the primary process (only one who previously had tried but was knocked out early). And we got a replacement candidate historically late in the campaign. That's fighting with one hand tied behind your back. Yes, in a sane world to you and me, you should be able to beat the likes of Trump with both hands tied behind your back and one bum leg. Unfortunately we don't live there.

 

[dudeimlost]

I didn't, and my home state didn't. Half the country didn't vote for this. Let Arizona or Texas kill themselves with this nonsense, but leave me out of it!

Also, I'm not a fan of the "staying at home, didn't vote" angle, because so many states weren't competitive. If the presidential race were decided by popular vote then a lot more people would vote.

Pennsylvania had 8.8 million voters registered, and only 7 million voted (round numbers). Philadelphia county had (Dems vs Reps) 766,024 vs 130,879 registered, but voted 568,571 vs 144,311... Harris lost the state only by 120266 votes - well below number that Philadelphia co's registered democrats could have swung in their favor.
Arizona, Michigan and Wisconsin, had democratic senators winning - yet the orange orangutan still won there...

Aforementioned four states would have swung the electoral college.

Congressional election is by popular vote, yet Dems manage to give away both house and senate...

Idiots can blame the electoral system all day long...

 

[Appalachian]

Why is no one asking the real question "How am I creating value and ROI for the shareholders, today?". Hopefully no shareholders are injured as we shove FSD down your throat and then jack up insurance premiums for anyone who tries to drive "hands on" forcing the hoi polloi to buy/hail one of our cars.

While I believe that autonomous vehicles are the future I was kind of comfortable with the pace of FSD's evolution.

Why aren't trains autonomous they're on tracks and it seems like any fool can rip one through town wheels on fire carrying hazardous chemicals?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLShz1FNF6o

 

[Jarrex]

So basically, the only thing we're not ready for as a nation is a female president. Black or white.

When Kamala was picked I said exactly that -- not because I wouldn't vote for a female president but because this country is majority of fucking sexist idiots - from both genders no less.

 

[kvndoom]

TIL: Deregulation increases safety

Just remember we are dealing with the "seat belts don't save lives" crowd.

 

[kaibelf]

Move fast and kill things

 

[AusPeter]

Tell you what: take a 15-minute ride. If it fails your mud-and-locust gauntlet I’ll buy the coffee; if it doesn’t, you retire the goalpost dolly. Deal?

So once again you can’t answer simple questions.

I’m beginning to suspect you might not be acting in good faith.

 

[dudeimlost]

Can we now get cars with cameras and internal displays instead of side view mirrors? I’m thinking like the Honda E, not sure how much it would improve drag, but could be nice.

ugh, tell me about it... we let full throttle and brake-by-wire on the road, and let cars steer on their own yet won't let cameras and screens replace fucking mirrors...

 

[niftykev]

You know what makes a state completely non-competitive? NOT VOTING BECAUSE YOU'RE SURE YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE.

I live in deep red Texas, and my whole family still made sure to go out and vote. So save the "but we wouldn't have won anyways" whining.

Besides, there are all the other elections that happen at the same time. It's not like the Presidential election is the only thing on the ballot.

Sure, your candidates might still lose (pretty sure all of mine did) but at least my damn vote counted locally.

And even if people had come out to vote and it didn't change the Electoral College result, it might have at least kept the streak of Republican loses popular vote but wins the EC result. Even as it was, Trump still didn't win a majority of the popular vote. I know it's just rhetoric and doesn't change anything but Representative Al Green was absolutely correct. Trump does not have a mandate from the American public, and not even from those who voted. He just won a plurality of votes and the archaic Electoral College system.

 

[morgenrot]

who counts being CEO of Tesla—which is subject to numerous NHTSA safety investigations, many involving partially automated driving—among his many day jobs conflicts of interest

TFTFY

 

[Hmnhntr]

Besides, there are all the other elections that happen at the same time. It's not like the Presidential election is the only thing on the ballot.

Sure, your candidates might still lose (pretty sure all of mine did) but at least my damn vote counted locally.

And even if people had come out to vote and it didn't change the Electoral College result, it might have at least kept the streak of Republican loses popular vote but wins the EC result. Even as it was, Trump still didn't win a majority of the popular vote. I know it's just rhetoric and doesn't change anything but Representative Al Green was absolutely correct. Trump does not have a mandate from the American public, and not even from those who voted. He just won a plurality of votes and the archaic Electoral College system.

Not to mention, you can pretty easily show, on a purely mathematical basis, that Republicans become more likely to win the fewer people who vote. Not voting supports Republicans, regardless of why the person does it, or what they feel like they're doing. And even if you can't change the result, there's no nobility to rolling over and letting it happen. Helping Trump win because Kamala/Biden's platform didn't go far enough, when Trump's platform is moving in the opposite direction, is just idiocy. No two ways about it.

 

[Psychophant]

Not to relitigate things but Trump got the same share of the vote as he did in 2020. But several million people who voted for Biden in 2020 stayed home (often in some misguided protest about Gaza—how'd that work out for those poor bastards?) or were disenfranchised. To the tune of about seven million, iirc.

If he had the same share of the vote, how did he lose the popular vote in 2020 and win it in 2024? The people who stayed home are not part of the vote, by choice.

 

[kvndoom]

Is this where I mention (grumpily) that Shelley Simonds wouldn't have lost her seat if I had taken my wife with me to vote that day?

You NEVER know when it's gonna be that day that "one vote matters."

(a recount ended up a tie after a judge threw out one vote, and Simonds lost a random drawing, giving the QOP control of the state house)

 

[Tonkaman]

In my experience, that requires a pretty intense jump in fuel cost. Once they hit the market you'd think "Okay, finally some lessons have been learned." But as soon as prices go back down you start seeing the large vehicles again. The U.S. is absolutely committed to driving cartoonishly large vehicles.

And don't be fooled that it's only a US thing. Crossovers / small SUVs are gaining popularity in Europe despite the high fuel costs. The actual limiting factor is that European infrastructure is not designed the larger American vehicles.

The roads are too narrow and you can't exactly tear down the stone and brick buildings to make them wider. Europe was designed for horses and carts, the automobile came later. The US was built around the automobile.

 

[Psychophant]

When Kamala was picked I said exactly that -- not because I wouldn't vote for a female president but because this country is majority of fucking sexist idiots - from both genders no less.

Even Obama knew she was a terrible candidate. Just look at her 2020 primary performance, she didn't even make it to Iowa. Not allowing a proper primary was a compete self own by Democrats. No need to blame sexism.

 

[VoidWeaver]

So once again you can’t answer simple questions.

I’m beginning to suspect you might not be acting in good faith.

I can keep explaining; you can keep replying “But actually…”
That’s not dialogue, that’s interactive whack-a-mole.

 

[clackerd]

Even Obama knew she was a terrible candidate. Just look at her 2020 primary performance, she didn't even make it to Iowa. Not allowing a proper primary was a compete self own by Democrats. No need to blame sexism.

¿Por que no los dos?

 

[trannic]

our new framework will slash red tape and move us closer to a single national standard that spurs innovation and prioritizes safety," Duffy said.

Many years ago, when I was an apprentice. I was given a short course in machining. I noticed that all of the big powerful machines were fitted with both a big red button and a guard to cover the rotating / moving parts. Given that these bits cost money and are not essential for the operation of the device. I would think that the next step towards efficiency would be for the government to remove the requirements for them to be fitted!

Safety is for wimps!
/S

 

[Psychophant]

Uh... Yes. And it's crazy to think that isn't true. Pure delusion. "White" is never a disqualifying factor. Except maybe, like, the Compton City council?

And New Haven firefighters.

"The court ruled that if you design a test that's race-neutral but you get results that seem race-biased, you're supposed to follow the test results," said Tom Goldstein, an instructor of supreme court litigation at Harvard and Stanford law schools. "The rule is designed to give employers confidence that they won't be second guessed."

In a five to four decision, the court ruled in favour of 17 whites and one Hispanic who passed an assessment test but were denied promotion when the city of New Haven, Connecticut refused to certify the results.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jun/29/connecticut-firefighters-supreme-court

And there's the still ongoing litigation of the FAA screening applicants based on "biographical background" because everyone knows having a diverse biographical background is very important when running a complex air traffic control system.

The questionnaire asked several irrelevant questions. According to the Washington Times, one of the questions was “college subject in which I received my lowest grade.” Those who wrote “history/political science” received 15 points. In addition, playing more than four sports in high school netted applicants 5 points.


In contrast, criteria that would disadvantage African Americans, such as holding a pilot's license, were worth only two points. An air traffic controller with a pilot's license understands what happens on the other end of the radio, which is a major advantage. Even more blatant is the omission of any points for actual experience as an air traffic controller in the military.

https://simpleflying.com/faa-air-traffic-controller-applicants-lawsuit/

 

[DarthSlack]

What specifically in the terms I mentioned did you disagree with and why?

All of them. They shouldn't be allowed on the roads at all until they've demonstrated that they can manage urban test set-ups, safely away from other drivers and pedestrians. And once they've done that, they should be required to have a driver at all times until there's enough data that human intervention isn't necessary.

Because any dead people aren't going to give a flying fuck if Tesla reports accidents in 15 days or not. They'll still be dead.

 

[Derecho Imminent]

All of them. They shouldn't be allowed on the roads at all until they've demonstrated that they can manage urban test set-ups, safely away from other drivers and pedestrians. And once they've done that, they should be required to have a driver at all times until there's enough data that human intervention isn't necessary.

AFAICT the article isnt about the requirements for allowing them on the road. Its about IF actual fully self driving cars are allowed can they then remove the steering wheel and pedals. Do you have a problem with them removing the steering wheel and pedals for a car that has no driver?

Granted there may be requirements being lessened that the article failed to mention, and feel free to quote those facts if you have them, but I was specifically speaking to what was mentioned in the article.

edit: for what its worth - I agree they shouldnt be allowed on the road unless they are proven safe, and I think Waymo has done a pretty good job of it.

 

[dfiler]

This one of the very few policy changes of this administration that i support. Accelerating the development of driving aids and autonomous vehicles will save thousands of lives.

Humans are really bad drivers. Close to 40000 Americans die each year from vehicle crashes. Fully autonomous vehicles aren't here yet. But they're our best bet at reducing crash fatalities. Autonomous vehicle don't need to be perfect, they just need to be less dangerous than human drivers.

 

[AusPeter]

I can keep explaining; you can keep replying “But actually…”
That’s not dialogue, that’s interactive whack-a-mole.

So you still can't answer the explicit questions I've asked?

Right, got it!

 

[graylshaped]

Pst. Hey, companies that want to market autonomous driving. If you ever want me to be a customer, I need to be able to trust the product. You should want and demand proper regulations so that you can prove that your tech is safe and trustworthy. As it is now, you're cutting your own legs out from under you.

If you really want to bake your noodle, consider these under-regulated vehicles will be on the streets with you driven by the same yahoos who are barely paying attention while ostensibly driving the non-"autonomous" vehicles they already have.

 

[graylshaped]

This one of the very few policy changes of this administration that i support. Accelerating the development of driving aids and autonomous vehicles will save thousands of lives.

Yes. Lowering the standards while eliminating research funding will do the trick, by yiminy, you betcha.

/rollseyes

 

[Rockchurch]

TIL: Deregulation increases safety

Okay, but can you honestly give ONE example of where regulation has been needed to keep a capitalist entity from harming people?

•am handed a note•

•the note says to move aside•

•six thousand pages of examples dump on the floor where I was standing•

 

[graylshaped]

Okay, but can you honestly give ONE example of where regulation has been needed to keep a capitalist entity from harming people?

•am handed a note•

•the note says to move aside•

•six thousand pages of examples dump on the floor where I was standing•

Easy, hoss. DOGE will use that pile to identify departments to eliminate.

 

[waryoldguy]

Our race with China seems to be to the bottom...oh wait, they stopped.

 

[Ajax81611]

I think what you meant to say in your headline is that the US is losing the race with China.

 

[Echohead2]

Harder whammy than being white AND a woman?

Definitely. You bring out both racists and sexists.

 

[Sky High]

It's what the people voted for (or stayed home and let happen).

The people who stayed home didnt let this happen. What is happening is the consequence of decades of neoliberalism. Lets totally ship jobs overseas for free market capitalism, while at the same time passing austerity measures to take more and more from those with the least.

For decades, Democrats, along with Republicans, have been passing legislation that transfers more and more wealth to the capitalist class. If there is anyone in the voting block who is to blame, it is those who kept voting for neoliberal politicians. It is those who couldnt be bothered to take a little bit of their time to do a class analysis of how the current system works. Nope, just keep voting for neoliberal politicians because your wealth keeps going up under them.

Yall allowed the conditions required for the rise of fascism to rise, but then yall want to blame everyone else for whats inevitable under neoliberalism.

You can not spend decades allowing more and more wealth to be funneled up, then be surprised when a bunch of people, who thanks to neoliberal austerity, saw their education continously underfunded so people cant be educated to a point where they can tell they are being lied to by fascists.

But please, keep blaming everyone but the "vote blue no matter who" goons.

 

[Sky High]

Nah, I absolutely blame them for 2024. If they stayed home after bearing witness to Trump 1, you bet I am gonna rightfully blame them for the result.

You really should blame neoliberalism, but then that would require you to take some blame for voting for neoliberal candidates.

You cant do neoliberalism for decades, then cry when fascism comes around. Thats the end result of neoliberalism.

America did this to themselves. Trump is the president America deserves.

 

[Sky High]

Not to relitigate things but Trump got the same share of the vote as he did in 2020. But several million people who voted for Biden in 2020 stayed home (often in some misguided protest about Gaza—how'd that work out for those poor bastards?) or were disenfranchised. To the tune of about seven million, iirc.

There was no misguided protest about Gaza.

Yall are completely fine with genocide. You "vote blue no matter who" people have no principles.

And yet you blame those who do have priciples and see no reason to keep voting for neoliberalism.

America deserves Trump, and unfortunatly, the American liberals will never understand why, because they cant fathom they are a part of the reason Trump exists.

Yall should have voted for Bernie in 2016, but instead yall wanted to keep supporting neoliberalism all because you are comfortable, and cant be bothered to think about other people.

 

[Deleted member 192806]

The people who stayed home didnt let this happen. What is happening is the consequence of decades of neoliberalism. Lets totally ship jobs overseas for free market capitalism, while at the same time passing austerity measures to take more and more from those with the least.

For decades, Democrats, along with Republicans, have been passing legislation that transfers more and more wealth to the capitalist class. If there is anyone in the voting block who is to blame, it is those who kept voting for neoliberal politicians. It is those who couldnt be bothered to take a little bit of their time to do a class analysis of how the current system works. Nope, just keep voting for neoliberal politicians because your wealth keeps going up under them.

Yall allowed the conditions required for the rise of fascism to rise, but then yall want to blame everyone else for whats inevitable under neoliberalism.

You can not spend decades allowing more and more wealth to be funneled up, then be surprised when a bunch of people, who thanks to neoliberal austerity, saw their education continously underfunded so people cant be educated to a point where they can tell they are being lied to by fascists.

But please, keep blaming everyone but the "vote blue no matter who" goons.

A little here, a little there, soon one has a mess.

 

[clackerd]

You really should blame neoliberalism, but then that would require you to take some blame for voting for neoliberal candidates.

You cant do neoliberalism for decades, then cry when fascism comes around. Thats the end result of neoliberalism.

America did this to themselves. Trump is the president America deserves.

You got it all figured out don't you

 

[graylshaped]

But please, keep blaming everyone but the "vote blue no matter who" goons.

A few more blue votes this past cycle would have resulted in exactly the same, you appear to assert.

Jeebus, the stoopid.
It burns.

 

[AdrianS]

This one of the very few policy changes of this administration that i support. Accelerating the development of driving aids and autonomous vehicles will save thousands of lives.

Humans are really bad drivers. Close to 40000 Americans die each year from vehicle crashes. Fully autonomous vehicles aren't here yet. But they're our best bet at reducing crash fatalities. Autonomous vehicle don't need to be perfect, they just need to be less dangerous than human drivers.

If it's a problem only solvable by automation, how come many countries have much lower death rates than the US?

 

[Komarov]

If it's a problem only solvable by automation, how come many countries have much lower death rates than the US?

That's an easy one. We require that proffesional driving instructors teach people how to drive. Not you mom or dad (who can't drive safely, either) for 3 hours on empty roads with automatic transmission. First it's a few hours on a learning course to cover the basics, then 15 to 20 in traffic. It's also not rare that people fail the state driving exam anyway and end up doing some 30+ hours under instruction.

And we still have accidents, because people will simply not stay away from the car when drunk/tired/worried/sick/spaced out on testosterone. Or they just plain get unlucky.