Electric car startup Faraday Future partners with Dragon Racing for Formula E

Many wanted a production car announcement, but software is going to be FF's linchpin.

Read the whole story

 

[Zak]

So what is THE biggest limitation of electric vehicles? Battery capacity and weight obviously? Is the battery ability to provide lots of power quickly also a limitation? Circuitry? With 100% of torque availble at any RPM I would expect electric race cars to completely obliterate any ICE powered cars.

 

[nehinks]

Zak[/url]":96sjx7zz]So what is THE biggest limitation of electric vehicles? Battery capacity and weight obviously? Is the battery ability to provide lots of power quickly also a limitation? Circuitry? With 100% of torque availble at any RPM I would expect electric race cars to completely obliterate any ICE powered cars.

Refueling/recharging. Just look at the example in the article - they had to have two cars for each racer just to avoid how long it would take to get them fully recharged.

 

[Leiesoldat]

And from a previous article about Pike's Peak electric racing, batteries overheating looks to be another major issue.

 

[Moodyz]

Zak[/url]":2y7eqbo1]So what is THE biggest limitation of electric vehicles?

Lack of soul.

 

[Zak]

Moodyz[/url]":2f1a7v4k]

Zak[/url]":2f1a7v4k]So what is THE biggest limitation of electric vehicles?

Lack of soul.

Tha's subjective but understandable I personally like the idea of a quiet car.

 

[Uxorious]

In subsequent racing series, the two companies will outfit each race car with “Faraday Future motors, gearbox, and the FF Echelon Inverter—the same inverter that will be installed into every future Faraday Future production vehicle,” according to the company’s press release.

While Faraday Future remains vaporware in my mind until it releases a drivable product, partnering with an existing race team, instead of diverting attention from their primary mission by attempting to start their own team, is a great move that increases confidence in the company's decision making process. Using the first racing season to learn about the process before piloting their own components in future racing series is also a mature and impressive strategy, which can only benefit both Faraday and Dragon Racing.

As others have mentioned, battery heat appears to be the next limiting factor for high-performance electric cars, so it will be interesting to see if Faraday will go beyond Tesla's system integration approach for battery pack design by developing their own proprietary battery technology, including increased cooling capability.

 

[Zak]

Thanks for the responses, by the way

 

[rosen380]

Is there enough heat to use thermoelectric generators to charge the battery from it?

 

[Statistical]

Is there enough heat to use thermoelectric generators to charge the battery from it?

Maybe but TEC are pretty inefficient and batteries are pretty efficient.

TEG might convert 5% to 8% of heat into electricity. Battery when discharging converts maybe 5% of chemical energy into heat (the rest is usable electricity). So combine those together and you get 0.05 * 0.08 = 0.4%. So you could recover 0.4% of the battery's capacity which is probably not worth the weight and complexity of the TEG. A simpler way to have 0.4% more capacity would just to use 0.4% more batteries.

 

[georgerosebush]

rosen380[/url]":uuyosn54]Is there enough heat to use thermoelectric generators to charge the battery from it?

You still need to keep it from overheating, charging it even more wouldn't help to cool it.

 

[Zak]

georgerosebush[/url]":nyucghiz]

rosen380[/url]":nyucghiz]Is there enough heat to use thermoelectric generators to charge the battery from it?

You still need to keep it from overheating, charging it even more wouldn't help to cool it.

There was something in the news recently about new ways of converting excess heat into electricity? Perhaps instead of using the excess heat to charge the batteries (which will create more heat) we could use it to boost the motors, therefore allowing the battery to "slow down" and cool off?

 

[KGFish]

Moodyz[/url]":wwt514kc]

Zak[/url]":wwt514kc]So what is THE biggest limitation of electric vehicles?

Lack of soul.

You mean noise and smell? That's not soul, that's just inefficient byproducts of the current motor technology.

EVmasterrace represent! Or something.

 

[vital]

nehinks[/url]":3er26xi2]

Zak[/url]":3er26xi2]So what is THE biggest limitation of electric vehicles? Battery capacity and weight obviously? Is the battery ability to provide lots of power quickly also a limitation? Circuitry? With 100% of torque availble at any RPM I would expect electric race cars to completely obliterate any ICE powered cars.

Refueling/recharging. Just look at the example in the article - they had to have two cars for each racer just to avoid how long it would take to get them fully recharged.

Couldn't they do a battery swap, like what Tesla was working on?

 

[Statistical]

nehinks[/url]":1cp16g56]

Zak[/url]":1cp16g56]So what is THE biggest limitation of electric vehicles? Battery capacity and weight obviously? Is the battery ability to provide lots of power quickly also a limitation? Circuitry? With 100% of torque availble at any RPM I would expect electric race cars to completely obliterate any ICE powered cars.

Refueling/recharging. Just look at the example in the article - they had to have two cars for each racer just to avoid how long it would take to get them fully recharged.

Couldn't they do a battery swap, like what Tesla was working on?

I wondered that to. Plus it would add a pit stop type aspect to the race. Mess up the battery swap and it could cost you the race.

 

[icwhatudidthere]

I see energy density as the primary problem.

F1 cars currently have a limit of 26 gallons of gas. With that 26 gallons, they have close to a 200 mile range and can do 2g of acceleration a few hundred times per race.

At 33 kWh per gallon, that's 858 kWh. At 45% thermal efficiency (current Mercedes engine), let's say an equivalent battery powered car can get by with 380 kWh. That's 4.5x a Tesla Model S, or in other words, you'd need to carry 5400lbs of batteries to do the distance and acceleration of an F1 car.

Of course, carrying 5400lbs of batteries means you won't be accelerating anywhere near an F1 car and so you're back to needing more batteries or limiting your range.

Feel free to chop up my numbers, but I need to be seriously wrong somewhere for batteries to compare favorably to 160 lbs of gas.

F1 is obviously at the extreme limit and most people will probably question how fun those races are to watch anyway, but it does go to show just how much more research and development has been put into gas engines.

I would honestly love to see a no-holds barred, no cost limitations Formula E to kickstart some serious battery/electric development.

 

[Dilbert]

Electric car company named after an old scientist associated with electricity research, offices in California, with a factory in Nevada? This is getting ridiculous. We should symbolically rename USA to Chine and D.C. to Beiging just to see what the fuckers say to that. Bet they'd cry foul. Why is US gov and our industry okay with having its I.P. ripped off, hacked, and outright stolen on a daily basis?

-Disgruntled IT worker who had to fight off another hack attack from an IP block near Beijing.

 

[Bush Ranger]

I would honestly love to see a no-holds barred, no cost limitations Formula E to kickstart some serious battery/electric development.

With enough media coverage of the races it will attract sponsors and $$$$ and this will result in better batteries and more range/speed/acceleration in a short time and its win win because that battery tech will eventually be in road cars.

In ten years we will see cars that can do 200 race miles on 1 charge, and battery packs that are light and can be easily changed.

 

[skierpage]

Uxorious[/url]":fk54s05c]While Faraday Future remains vaporware in my mind until it releases a drivable product, partnering with an existing race team, instead of diverting attention from their primary mission by attempting to start their own team, is a great move that increases confidence in the company's decision making process. Using the first racing season to learn about the process before piloting their own components in future racing series is also a mature and impressive strategy, which can only benefit both Faraday and Dragon Racing.

Racing still seems a distraction. They'd learn more by having 8 mules drive around in the real world rather than two racing cars driving in circles.

It makes sense for Rimac to get involved in racing parts because it's not far removed from Rimac's plan to make a few crazy-fast boutique supercar EVs a year. But FF's product sketch for its first real car is a raked SUV that looks a bit like a Mazda CX-9. Maybe FF is so behind on other necessary systems for that road car that it might as well supply its inverter and software to a race team...

 

[Uxorious]

skierpage[/url]":3ne7yenx]

Uxorious[/url]":3ne7yenx]While Faraday Future remains vaporware in my mind until it releases a drivable product, partnering with an existing race team, instead of diverting attention from their primary mission by attempting to start their own team, is a great move that increases confidence in the company's decision making process. Using the first racing season to learn about the process before piloting their own components in future racing series is also a mature and impressive strategy, which can only benefit both Faraday and Dragon Racing.

Racing still seems a distraction. They'd learn more by having 8 mules drive around in the real world rather than two racing cars driving in circles.

It makes sense for Rimac to get involved in racing parts because it's not far removed from Rimac's plan to make a few crazy-fast boutique supercar EVs a year. But FF's product sketch for its first real car is a raked SUV that looks a bit like a Mazda CX-9. Maybe FF is so behind on other necessary systems for that road car that it might as well supply its inverter and software to a race team...

The difference between your 8 mules and 2 racers circling the track is one of min/max limits. A mule, even if driven aggressively (and potentially illegally) on the road will only likely reach 6-7 tenths of the car's limit from a performance perspective, if you consider the car as a system that has to balance inputs in all directions (acceleration, turning, braking, heat dissipation, durability, endurance, etc.) while remaining in control.

One might argue that a mule could be tested in a manner approaching the conditions of a race by loading it to the limit with passengers and ballast and then driving it through Death Valley or some other inhospitable place, and many manufacturers do perform this type of testing, but it is also expensive and has its own risks.

There is still a difference between how a vehicle reacts at higher speeds under a normal load and one that is heavily loaded or overloaded. Racing exists to test components in a controlled, instrumented environment, where components can be adjusted step-by-step in an experimental fashion not practical out on city streets.

One hopes that Faraday will pursue both racing and the mule-based testing you advocate; both are valuable.

 

[rosen380]

icwhatudidthere[/url]":2ppwz8jk]I see energy density as the primary problem.

F1 cars currently have a limit of 26 gallons of gas. With that 26 gallons, they have close to a 200 mile range and can do 2g of acceleration a few hundred times per race.

At 33 kWh per gallon, that's 858 kWh. At 45% thermal efficiency (current Mercedes engine), let's say an equivalent battery powered car can get by with 380 kWh. That's 4.5x a Tesla Model S, or in other words, you'd need to carry 5400lbs of batteries to do the distance and acceleration of an F1 car.

Of course, carrying 5400lbs of batteries means you won't be accelerating anywhere near an F1 car and so you're back to needing more batteries or limiting your range.

Feel free to chop up my numbers, but I need to be seriously wrong somewhere for batteries to compare favorably to 160 lbs of gas.

F1 is obviously at the extreme limit and most people will probably question how fun those races are to watch anyway, but it does go to show just how much more research and development has been put into gas engines.

I would honestly love to see a no-holds barred, no cost limitations Formula E to kickstart some serious battery/electric development.

Are there battery techs that have significantly higher densities than current tech, but just aren't feasible for mass production and reasonable consumer pricing? if so, maybe a different technology would work here since these racing teams have a lot more money to spend and there are fairly few of them, so the tech wouldn't have to be quite mass production ready.