Belugas may pass the mirror test—but does the mirror test still pass?
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I dunno. My cat doesn't need a mirror to groom himself. I can easily see him dismissing a mirror image as simply useless. He'll play with shadow puppets, though. Also, many humans believe they appear to other people as they do to themselves in a mirror, i.e., reversed.
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This is interesting evidence. But I also think that humans need to step well away from our default position that we're special and no other animal can do X. We've been proven wrong over and over and over.
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Artem S. Tashkinov
Ars Scholae Palatinae
Funny how we assign consciousness/self-awareness to certain species when we still don't know what either of those terms mean, let alone agree on a definition.
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No other animal than elephants flap their ears when happy. So what?
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You're confusing one having a physical response to emotion with a specific physiology-dependent response -- you're displaying utterly complete lack of understanding of the issue here.
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considering that at least basic reflections are present in the wild, I would think it's possible this is more a narrowly focused evolutionary trait than anything else
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Well, your comment can be interpreted 2 different ways
1) There are multiple physiological responses to internal state of mind with crying tears being only one, and humans are the only one that use crying tears in this way
2) Crying tears is the only way to express joy/sadness (non verbally), therefore no other animal has such an internal state
The first is a straightforward interpretation and adds nothing to the conversation, while the second is the contextual interpretation, and is not really supported by evidence.
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"A creature tends to do a thing that only that creature can do" -- well, yes, liquid water is wet. How is that relevant to literally anything here? Saying that has zero point to it and adds literally nothing to the conversation.
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My cat very clearly identifies herself in the mirror. And I think there is lots and lots of footage where you can see that, I mean, cats recognizing themselves in a mirror image (or selfie cam). And not just cats. Maybe the test parameters are chosen oddly here, I don't know. But far more animals than those listed in the article very obviously understand that they see themselves in a mirror image.
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One problem with using this as a test of animal cognition is that it prioritizes sight. My dog could never pass this test even if she was self aware, because to her things without scent simply don't exist. She'll completely ignore mirrors or computer screens, even if I'm on them, but she'll happily run past other dogs or people she knows if there's an interesting scent on the ground. (Laughing about that with a neighbor this morning as my dog completely ignored his to follow some trail)
I don't know how you'd build a similar test for hearing or smell, but I suspect a lot more animals might pass if you included their primary sense
I don't know how you'd build a similar test for hearing or smell, but I suspect a lot more animals might pass if you included their primary sense
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Experimental Psychology is kinda cool. I had a dog that after seeing himself in a mirror liked to look at himself in a mirror. I thought it very interesting. I think he was self aware as a sentiment being.
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My dog frequently checked herself out in the mirror.
I don't think it measured whether she was self aware or not because I think the mirror test is deeply flawed - biased in favor of human behaviors, physiology, anthropophism, and so forth. Do I think she was self aware? Yes. Measuring that is exceedingly difficult because I am limited to my own and my specie's frame of reference.
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"Who is that other dog that doesn't have a smell? Weird"
But yes, at first thought it seems like an anthropocentric experiment to run. Interesting though, it might be my Wikipedia rabbit-hole for the day.
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Humans have been saying "our species is special because we're the only animal that can do thus-and-such" for a long time. One supposedly unique trait after another has been shown not to be unique, including tool use. I sometimes suspect if there's something unique about our species, it's that we keep looking for a specific thing that makes us different from all other animals.
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ubercurmudgeon
Ars Praefectus
You think Trump lacks an awareness of his own existence? That's quite possibly the only thing he has; certainly it is the only thing he cares about.
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I've seen one dog learn to go to where a ball bounced against a wall is going to land (instead of following to-and-off the wall). Only one I ever saw do that ... and do it better than some of my racquetball opponents. Of course that's not about self-awareness, more geometry and physics. Still was amazing.
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I'm gobsmacked that belugas could see their own reflection often enough to have an accurate mental representation of themselves that they'd know if there was an unusual mark on themselves.
No other animal posts to r/AITAH and I tell you, some of those posts show truly breathtaking lack of self-awareness.
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So you totally missed the killer whale Tahlequah carrying around here dead calf for 17 days? And this is a well documented behavior amongst killer whales and not a one off thing. That's a pretty emotional response even if not tears.
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I have had numerous cats over the years and most have chased laser pointers extensively. The most recent, Kiko would chase for about a minute as a kitten aged 3 months. After that it became "unreal" to him. Similar time was spent on TV and mirrors. When I get the laser pointer out he will investigate now for just a few seconds then put it on "ignore". He will use mirrors though for observational purposes.
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Yeah, I'm pretty confident she didn't recognize herself in the mirror image, but for whatever reason she was fascinated by the mirror.
When they were pups, two of my current doggos would see themselves in the mirror and bark and paw at the mirror by our front door. So definitely didn't see themselves in it.
One of them is fascinated by dogs on TV, he gets super excited when he hears and sees them in a show. When there's lots of dog action, I have to stop him from pawing at the screen. I've put movies on featuring dogs and he'll sit in front of the TV and watch with interest - ears pricked, eyes and head following the action - for a good 30 minutes or more. I don't read any deeper meaning into this, it's just fun to watch him and he seems to enjoy it.
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Don't forget about farming. They were growing, cultivating, and farming their fungal 'fields' many, many, many thousands of years before human beings even existed. And they will likely be doing so long after humanity ceases to exist. Because ants are one of, if not the most successful and plentiful species on the planet. So much so, that formicidae predation has thus far been an evolutionary 1-way street. Once animals start eating ants for their diets, they never experience any pressure to do anything else.
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Water is wet and Earth's sky is blue during the day. Does my saying that add anything to the conversation? Do you feel attacked by it? The answer to the former is no, and if the answer to one latter is yes, that's a problem on your part. I suggest you stop responding and seek help to deal with your clear social anxiety.
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“
No, there is no attack to YOU; this is strictly a smack down to the inane comment. Your other comment is only upvoted, so chill out.
No, there is no attack to YOU; this is strictly a smack down to the inane comment. Your other comment is only upvoted, so chill out.
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I appreciate the slant of this article. I’ve doubted this test ever since I heard about it.
For one, many animals, and little humans, that fail the test respond differently to seeing themselves in the mirror than to seeing other animals or babies directly, through a window, in an image, or in the mirror. Many dogs who are reactive barkers to other dogs don’t react to themselves in the mirror, although some do.
My own 17 month old daughter still doesn’t examine stuff on her face in the mirror, but has clearly acted like it was herself since a much younger age and has been able to positively identify herself and others in pictures for many months.
The unifying element of most creatures that are aware the mirror image isn’t someone else but still fail the test? They don’t give a rats ass whether they have crap on their face!
For one, many animals, and little humans, that fail the test respond differently to seeing themselves in the mirror than to seeing other animals or babies directly, through a window, in an image, or in the mirror. Many dogs who are reactive barkers to other dogs don’t react to themselves in the mirror, although some do.
My own 17 month old daughter still doesn’t examine stuff on her face in the mirror, but has clearly acted like it was herself since a much younger age and has been able to positively identify herself and others in pictures for many months.
The unifying element of most creatures that are aware the mirror image isn’t someone else but still fail the test? They don’t give a rats ass whether they have crap on their face!
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A SIGNIFICANTLY better test is whether or not a typically hostile animal (including humans) towards ANY other animals and how they respond to seeing themselves in the mirror and do they attack the mirror or not is a SIGNIFICANTLY better test than the "I looked in the mirror, saw myself and nodded to myself" BS test.
We've had cats that INSTANTLY go into Fight or Flight mode whenever they saw/see other cats. It doesn't matter the circumstances. And even if it is a cat that they live with, some of those cats are STILL unhappy having ANY other animal sharing their space is NOT, NOT, NOT something they like at all.
When you have an openly hostile animal vs ANY other animal (EVEN HUMANS if they aren't known to be ones that feed them) and have them look in a mirror, we've had some cats that are still hostile to their own reflection even after years of seeing themselves they still have that Fight or Flight reaction at least for a moment but then they recognize themselves and they very quickly relax.
They never nod or wave or do any other BS "acknowledgement" of themselves other than relaxing when they NEVER relax even if you try to get them to accept another animal in their life and they never allow it without ALWAYS hissing if not outright attacking the other cat OR go into Flight mode.
THAT is a SIGNIFICANTLY better indication that they realize that it is themselves and not another animal.
Cats (and every other animal with some intelligence) for the most part figure out pretty quickly that they are looking at themselves. Any INTELLIGENT human should be able to recognize that. Scientists in the idiot section of human intelligence typically can't accept that 1) they themselves are just a smart animal - well more often than not 2) other animals are a lot smarter than they are willing to give credit for 3) recognize themselves a LOT more often than these "scientists" will give them credit for.
Question: What do you call a scientist that finished with the lowest GPA of ANY student in ANY college in ANY country in the world? A scientist.
There are a LOT of scientists in the world that have a MUCH lower intelligence than a typical person they walk past on the street. There a guy that I went to high school with that did the dumbest things like walking into a screen door IN HIS OWN HOUSE while growing up that we used to make fun of. And he wasn't doing it as a joke. How many times do you have to run into a screen door before you start sticking you hand out in front of you before you check to make sure that it is open or not? And he supposedly had good eye sight so that wasn't the problem. And HE has a job as a research scientist. We all joke that we would never use a product based on any research that he did.
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Humans are special because they are the only species that keep looking for a specific thing that makes humans different from all other animals.
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