Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
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From the bottom of my heart, fuck you. I come from a poor country and grew up lower middle class, and I'm literally a world expert in my domain.
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The problem is when companies like Disney do this and fire their IT operations staff and replace them with outsourced H1B visa workers. Who the fired staff have to train how to do their job for half the price.
That is the part that needs the rethink.
I’ve managed and worked with people who came here as H1B visa who became permanent. They’re nice people. But the corporations are the ones who need to be punished.
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From the links to the US Gov websites in the article, looks like at least some of these forms needed physically filling in and posting to the relevant US department to be approved, so could be possible the US Goverment were rejecting applications that had some electronic evidence which resulted in Apple making the whole process paper based?
Of course it could just be a 'clever' way someone in HR came up with to technically comply with the rules to advertise out the role, as from other posters it sounds like these weren't new jobs but instead Apple wanting to make an existing non-US employee permanent?
A similar thing happens here in the UK - public bodies want to give a vacancy to someone internal, however they are required to advertise the vacancy externally as well, so they advertise it in a way that meets their legal requirment but at the same time discourages external applicants from applying for the role.
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Generally those people do not get PERM sponsorship. PERM sponsorship is actually a strong sign that this is not happening.
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As someone who has been a government worker in the US, the joke is usually about how the person drafting the job posting forgot to include the required shoe size. It's absolutely rampant on this side of the pond.
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In over 10+ years in software industry, the most blatant discrimination I've seen has been against Americans. I'm seen better qualified Americans fired in one week and replaced with foreign employee when the executive(s) found out who middle-management had hired.
Perhaps it's the expectation of foreign workers being more pressured to work, who knows, but companies all over are doing this and getting away with it.
The penalty imposed on Apple is laughable.
Perhaps it's the expectation of foreign workers being more pressured to work, who knows, but companies all over are doing this and getting away with it.
The penalty imposed on Apple is laughable.
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Any elite US tech company is hiring H1Bs left and right because they usually are freshly minted, bright PhD students who happen to come from overseas.
We have a deficit of PhD students, and the world is full of universities that are as good or better than any college here that does not have a cutting edge science or engineering program. And higher ed in many of these countries is highly competitive and either highly subsidized or free or accessible to those countries' economic elite. This people feed into our graduate programs and literally are the ones that keep scientific innovation going. So yes, "highly skilled".
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How about some jail time?
Corporate shenanigans will never stop until:
1. Perpetrators have to pay for damages out of their own pockets.
2. They watch "the square sun" behind bars.
Corporate shenanigans will never stop until:
1. Perpetrators have to pay for damages out of their own pockets.
2. They watch "the square sun" behind bars.
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"Move fast and break stuff"... I guess that includes people too...
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When I see a job posting asking you to be mutli-lingual X5, program in C, Assembler, Python, RoR, PHP, VB, Java, have a PhD in mathematics and a masters in Electrical Engineering, expertise in 27 different software packages, you know the company is going to hire H1B visa and tell the labor board 'we couldn't find a suitable citizen candidate'.
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The fact is, until about 1980, corporations, while not exactly paragons of virtue, were smaller, and much more socially aware than they are today.
~1980 was when the Friedman Doctrine was published which essentially took three of the four pillars of corporate responsibility (employees, customers, shareholders, civil responsibility) and threw away all but "shareholders". People used to work for the same corporation making a livable wage for a family of four, retire with fanfare and it wasn't a bad gig at all.
All that changed under the unmitigated disaster for the working man that were the Reagan/Ford administrations. That's when corporations stopped giving any shits at all (even if they were pretense to begin with) for anything except increasing profits and continuous "growth". It wasn't an immediate transition, but as monopolies grew, it became much more cancerous than what came before.
I stopped believing corporations had anyone's good at heart 40 years ago. Nothing in the last 40 years has even come close to changing my mind about that.
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Normally I'd believe that, but just look at the trajectory of Jordan Belfort. He did time in prison for his crimes, but between the Club Fed cushy digs and the support system he'd built that was waiting for him on the outside, nothing changed besides the fact that he could no longer run a company like he did before, so he went the route of motivational speaker. I have almost zero belief that jail time for rich execs would do anything to change the corporate shenanigans unless they're going to effectively memory-hole the perps in some Rocky Mountain Supermax where they're completely and utterly removed from civilization.
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Drive down labor costs and hire foreigners dependent on Apple. All the other companies do this too.
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No, the permanent process needs that re-think. It should be possible to hire somebody and directly get a Green Card within weeks instead of decades. It's those decade-long delays that makes the person dependent on the employer. The H-1B is just the vehicle used to bridge the gap.
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Does it state Apple was paying a lower wage to foreign workers? These are US based workers correct? Maybe they wanted skilled employees who focus on the job first and wanting to retain those employees.
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Absolutely right. Shut it down. Don’t authorize any renewals.
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Specifically targeted a WiPro and Infosys outsourcing slave houses.
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American tech worker expects $100K salary.
Outsourcing to WiPro or Infosys for $50K instead... Also easier to "pause" employment of contractors for a quarter between major projects.
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They will actually brag about this during informal receptions.
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The whole H1B/Perm is backwards out of the gate. The visa/perm should not be sponsored by or tied to a specific company. It creates unhealthy power imbalances and unfairness for permanent residents and new immigrants.
I’m fine if you want a yearly quota, but leave companies out of the loop. It’s so dumb only a government could make it up with the help of lobbyists.
I’m fine if you want a yearly quota, but leave companies out of the loop. It’s so dumb only a government could make it up with the help of lobbyists.
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Yes, that's exactly what's happening. It is actually required to be done that way by immigration law. Where Apple apparently screwed up was by using a separate application process. When you already have the perfect person for the job, it's perfectly acceptable to be very specific in the job requirements, even if that will exclude Americans who might be not-quite-perfect fit.
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Three factual corrections:
- They aren't hiring H-1Bs "left and right" because the quota for H-1Bs is very low, and they are raffled off in a lottery (quite literally, the lottery takes place in the first days of October every year). Last I checked (that was a couple of years ago) only about one in ten applicants actually won an H-1B. That's not a reliable way to fill a job, it's a last resort.
- Many, if not most, of those freshly minted, bright students are actually graduates from US university who had a student visa.
- People who have a PhD often have another way to get an immigrant visa directly.
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My former employer did something similar. They would post jobs for something like "Senior Java Developer" for $58000/yr located in Danville, Illinois (NO ONE wants to go to Danville, IL).
Then when no one applies after 90 days they farm the job out to a placement firm in India and suddenly the job is a WFH job based out of NYC.
The same employer who laid me off in order to move my position off-shore to India.
Then when no one applies after 90 days they farm the job out to a placement firm in India and suddenly the job is a WFH job based out of NYC.
The same employer who laid me off in order to move my position off-shore to India.
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In my experience companies hire fresh tech grads in India, then use an L1 to transfer them to the US, often their "role" is some kind of "manager", though they don't actually manage anyone. But it lets them work in the US on an L1.
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Correct. One part of both the H-1B and the PERM process is that the labor conditions (primarily, the pay and hours) have to be posted publicly for all other employees to see. If an H-1B is really underpaid, the other employees will know, and can file a complaint. I've seen such a complaint process in action, and it's not something any HR person or executive wants to go through.
BTW, somebody else mentioned that some forms have to be filled out in paper - this posting requirement is why the paper forms are needed.
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That's actually exactly how the law was written. But it was also written with the assumption that the process would only take a few weeks.
One problem: the quota is a large part of the problem (not the only one). A quota means that you will develop a waiting line ("sorry, wait until next year"), and that's deadly when you need to fill a job quickly. Currently, one of the quotas (for a family-based category) has a backlog of a quarter-century!
That's why the H-1B is used in the first place.
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You think tech workers, especially at Apple, expect $100k? That... is an interesting take.
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I've had the opposite happen. Employer wanted to hire a specific employee with special skills, but couldn't get a visa for them. So they closed up shop in California, and moved the whole operation to Hyderabad. 50 American jobs lost.
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Yes, but that's a very different situation. For one, those are generally not PhDs, but have a bachelor's degree.
And they use the L-1 because unlike the H-1B, there is no quota on it.
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"Apple did not advertise PERM positions on its external job website like it does with other positions, the DOJ said. "It also required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions," the DOJ said.
Hmmm.... That doesn't smell right. Yet, how could such a benevolent company be up to something nefarious?
As Reuters noted, "Foreign labor can often be cheaper than hiring US workers, and immigrants who rely on their employers for green card sponsorship are seen as less likely to leave for a different job."
But surely Apple didn't know this!
Hmmm.... That doesn't smell right. Yet, how could such a benevolent company be up to something nefarious?
As Reuters noted, "Foreign labor can often be cheaper than hiring US workers, and immigrants who rely on their employers for green card sponsorship are seen as less likely to leave for a different job."
But surely Apple didn't know this!
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Hmm. We're seeing in excess of 300 qualified domestic applications for <25 slots, and that's with the nightmarish cost of living versus stipend situation in California. Silicon valley companies in particular have a long-standing practice of colluding to drive wages down, which is both illegal, and advantages folks who do not have college debt to pay off.
US universities routinely take 50% longer to graduate PhDs in technical fields than Euro, Indian and Aussie universities, and the student is often no better trained for industry positions. Domestic academic positions are overwhelmingly staffed from a small number of universities, so going outside the most presitgious programs should get you pushed through much faster, but rarely does. US companies could easily invest heavily in domestic programs and far more attractive internship positions, but as with Google's "plan" to build more bay area housing, have no actual desire to pay for what they can get for free.
Consequently, our moribund postdoc system is overwhelmingly filled by foreign applicants, who can get a year of two of a postdoc done, on top of their PhD, by the time American PhD students finally get their committee and PI to sign off. To be entirely fair, many Euro systems require a Master's degree as a prerequisite to getting a PhD position, and typically "hire" PhD students with a specific project already in mind. We usually toss first years into rotations, and it is not uncommon for a third year student to get kicked out of a lab because the PI is a psychopath, lost funding, or both.
Small wonder so many domestic PhDs move into Sci Comms, investing, consulting or technical sales; they get paid better, do less work, and usually don't need a postdoc to get the time of day from recruiters.
H1Bs are generally a good idea, but not in my experience due to a lack of potential American PhD students.
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