The 2023 Kia Niro EV is incredibly efficient and a great all-around car
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It's not really an SUV or CUV, it's really a small wagon, but too many people would turn up their nose if it was called that.
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2023 and we still aren't back to good ol' physical controls for important things? Sigh
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It maybe close to the average price of a new car but in my view it is still expensive.I am not saying it is over priced.
I tend to buy new Hondas. My 2019 Civix EX was around $22,000.
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We had a 2019 Niro Electric, and we loved it. It was our second EV, after a 2015 Ford Focus Electric. It's really nice not having to go to gas stations; we just plug in using the convenience charger we keep in our driveway. But we got a new 2023 EV6 a couple of weeks ago, and since we're a one-car family (I work from home, and there's lots of good transit options around here), we sold the Niro, as we had planned.
The Niro was a great car. Nice and functional, and the only maintenance issues we ever had were with the sun visors (the little clips broke after a year) and the front windshield sprayer (somehow one of them got clogged). Aside from that, no regular maintenance aside from replacing the tires once; it's really nice not having to go in for maintenance in EVs. No oil changes, and in the 8 years since we got our Focus Electric, we've never once had to get the brakes replaced; thanks to regenerative braking doing most of the work, the brake pads wear down super slowly.
We upgraded from the Niro to the EV6 primarily for the longer range; the Niro's battery had weakened a bit over the years, and with a nominally lower range, the trips we make several times per year to where our kid goes to college (~300 miles away) were taking a long time because of multiple charging stops. The EV6 will be able to make it with a single stop to charge.
The Niro was a great car. Nice and functional, and the only maintenance issues we ever had were with the sun visors (the little clips broke after a year) and the front windshield sprayer (somehow one of them got clogged). Aside from that, no regular maintenance aside from replacing the tires once; it's really nice not having to go in for maintenance in EVs. No oil changes, and in the 8 years since we got our Focus Electric, we've never once had to get the brakes replaced; thanks to regenerative braking doing most of the work, the brake pads wear down super slowly.
We upgraded from the Niro to the EV6 primarily for the longer range; the Niro's battery had weakened a bit over the years, and with a nominally lower range, the trips we make several times per year to where our kid goes to college (~300 miles away) were taking a long time because of multiple charging stops. The EV6 will be able to make it with a single stop to charge.
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Looks like a fairly decent (except for price) Bolt/EUV substitute. How does it compare to the otherwise similar-looking Kona?
Back seat looks a lot better in this than in the older Kona (where is was basically useless for carrying adults). Again, current Kona comparison?
Essentially, is this a Kia Kona or are there real differences that should matter when shopping?
Next thing H/K should do, though, is clean up their dealers' acts. The local dealers in the Sacramento CA area pretty much kill the idea of buying one.
Back seat looks a lot better in this than in the older Kona (where is was basically useless for carrying adults). Again, current Kona comparison?
Essentially, is this a Kia Kona or are there real differences that should matter when shopping?
Next thing H/K should do, though, is clean up their dealers' acts. The local dealers in the Sacramento CA area pretty much kill the idea of buying one.
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It's lower than the median new car price as well. You might just have to accept that $40k cars are very normal. That doesn't mean you have to like it or that you even need to buy one.
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It may be "normal" as you and the car business define it, because they can move product at that price. It's not "normal" for me because as-delivered (with tax, license, and Additional Dealer Profit) it's well over half of my gross annual income. Which of course is why I buy used cars, and currently have a Bolt with about 48K on it and a nearly new battery, bought for about $25K out the door used last year (when new Bolts and Hyundai/Kia EVs at any price, let alone MSRP or less, were unobtainium without an order and 6+ months wait), because I needed a car and wanted an EV suitable for general use.
No, I'm not in the target market for the median-price pickup/SUV, most EVs, or any Tesla. Troll or otherwise, the one you responded to is not in that market either, or at least wants to pretend that way. I might be in the target market for a Prius Prime or similar PHEV, priced new in the mid-$30Ks, with some stretch, mainly because they have a useful EV range and can replace both of my existing cars (a hybrid and a EV). That replacement isn't needed right away, though, so I can wait and see what happens in the business.
Meantime, there are plenty of peripheral things to gripe about with this Niro, but overall it looks like a pretty nice package with a price just low enough to tickle "affordable" without being a raving bargain. Too bad this and the Kona are going to be about the only really useful EVs in that range once the Bolts are gone.
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Your “rather expensive” 15 cents per kWh is under the 16.6 cents US average for March 2023 according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Want expensive? Try San Diego at 47.5 cents.
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And it runs CarPlay unlike some future EVs from car companies that rhyme with Meneral Gotors.
This looks exactly like my type of EV: small, but sporty. An equivalent to the ID.4.
However, I really like the ID.3 big wide windows, but as an American, I apparently don’t deserve the ID.3. (Maybe there will be a GTI style variant for the American market? Oh please VW, please.)
This looks exactly like my type of EV: small, but sporty. An equivalent to the ID.4.
However, I really like the ID.3 big wide windows, but as an American, I apparently don’t deserve the ID.3. (Maybe there will be a GTI style variant for the American market? Oh please VW, please.)
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It's not quite as nifty as plugging your car in, but have you looked into solar? Or even just a battery bank?
There's a place here in Texas--Signature Solar, I think--that has a 30kWh EG4 system for ~$12k, sans solar but ready. (And I dunno if their pricing is good or not.) Maybe $15k with electrician time so it's properly grid-tied?
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Just because it's more than you want to spend on a car doesn't mean it isn't a normal car price. There are people who can't afford a car at all. That doesn't make $40k any more or less a typical new car price
Cars are expensive. I feel ya. But this isn't some egregious Italian supercar. It's a normal EV selling at normal new car prices.
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It would be nice if there was a standard for using the energy that's already in your car. I have over 90kWh of battery sitting in my garage. It would be awesome if I could tap into that if I wanted to.
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Indeed it would, especially if it could work alongside existing storage where applicable. Like "drain house first, then car" automatically.
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My Lyft ride today was one of these! It was pretty comfortable in back, decent leg room. I quite liked the dashboard display, which was a big long flatscreen that curved as it needed to. You can see it in the 'black piano trim' picture up there - the dashboard on the left and the center display look like they're separate screens, but they're actually the same screen, or at least they have the same covering glass and I think it looked like there was stuff showing between then? Either way, instead of just having a stupid single rectangular tablet hanging off the center like the Tesla 3 the important stuff and the side stuff are separated. And there are actual physical buttons and dials for (most of?) the important stuff like volume control, which also makes it much better than a Tesla 3.
It was fairly quiet (road noise), decent ride. On the other hand, on the way to my destination the center part stopped showing the map and started flashing 'EV Battery < 10%, head to a charging station'. I made it home, I hope he found one soon after.
It was fairly quiet (road noise), decent ride. On the other hand, on the way to my destination the center part stopped showing the map and started flashing 'EV Battery < 10%, head to a charging station'. I made it home, I hope he found one soon after.
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The vast majority of Americans (about 75%) buy used cars instead of new, and on average they buy cars for less than $30k. I guess I would still agree that a $40k car falls within "normal" (depending on your state and city), even if they're only attainable for a large minority of buyers.
Then again, that doesn't account for the long-term cost differences in a $30k ICE or hybrid vs a $40k electric than could help balance out the loan payment differences
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Yes, most people buy used cars. Because new cars are expensive.
This is nothing new. We go over to it in every new car article. Regardless of what price you pay, or are willing to pay, for a car, the average (mean and median) new car price is over $40k now.
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The Niro EV is on its fourth year in the US, so that effectively exists today.
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Timtheenchanter
Ars Tribunus Militum
Kia sold 8,000 Niro EVs worldwide compared to over 38,000 bolt/bolt euvs sold last year. More bolts were sold than Niro hybrid, PHEV and EV-this is a low selling vehicle.
edit: not true about global Niro sales of all trims, I was looking at their U.S. sales. my bad.
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Yep, I get it and understand the issue of this being a repetitive complaint. But I think its also understandable that there is a lot of pent-up frustration from many waiting and waiting for more EV's to become generally affordable not just relatively affordable.
I don't foresee this discussion point dying down much until we see a lot more of these "cheap for an EV" cars trickling down in the price in the used market to what an average buyer can afford. And that could be a while if up to 75% of Americans are waiting for the other 25% to buy, use, and resell enough of these
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The biggest difference is the payload when there are no passengers.
With an SUV, you can fold down the seats, but the seats are still there, taking up about half the vertical space. Sure, you can probably slide a 4x8 foot sheet of plywood in there, but you won't be able to stand a pair of 4-drawer dressers in there. If you're lucky, you can lay one down flat. Having doors on the sides makes it a pain to get stuff in/out the sides. And unloading 7 people into a parking space can be a challenge.
With a minivan, you either fold the seats down into the floor (stow-n-go), or you remove them completely, leaving you with a giant cargo space. Hauling around lumber, firewood, dressers, couches, queen mattresses (although the boxspring doesn't fit), etc is a breeze. The beauty of stow-n-go seating is that you can drive a load of people to a location, hide the seats, fill the van with stuff, drive somewhere else to unload it, and grab another load of people, etc. It's also nice to be able to drop down half the back seat and one of the middle seats to get long stuff in while still having seats for 4 or 5 people. Having sliding doors on the sides also makes it really easy to get people and stuff inside.
You can easily load a pickup bed worth of stuff into a minivan. You can't really do that with an SUV.
SUVs are great people movers but not-so-great stuff movers. Minivans are great people and stuff movers.
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Yes, the low CG helps keep all four feet planted. I drive an EV6 and got to feel what a rapid emergency maneuver is like. Guy to my left heading same direction pulled quickly into my lane and would have clipped my front left quarter. Being in the right lane, I pulled hard to the right shoulder and the car solidly obeyed without a fraction of a second of doubt. Never have I felt cornering like that. No mush or lean whatsoever.
But it's a weird combination of feeling. Even though that emergency right was solid I could still feel the weight of the battery.
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You’re missing my point. I am aware of the price of cars. Cars are an expensive purchase, this is nothing new. As I mentioned I didn’t think the Kia was over priced.
You need to accept the fact that cars are expensive and getting more expensive every year. Many people lease because they can’t afford to buy the same car new. Or they fiancé using ridiculously long loan terms. Don’t be fooled into thinking the average new car price is not an expensive purchase for the average person.
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Despite the name, you shouldn’t rest your head on it. It’s only for whiplash protection. It’s not a racing car head cradle for G forces. It’s just a padded metal bar.
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I thought you responded to my post saying I thought a $40,000 was exspensive. I disagreed with a poster saying that it wasn’t expensive because the average new car price was higher.
I guess I don’t know why you responded to my post. If you think the Kia is expensive then we agree.
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The Kia isn't expensive for a new car. It's a normal new car price.
If you consider new cars too expensive, then this isn't going to change that. A car is the first or second most expensive thing most people will ever own. It's a good chunk of money. But this car isn't an expensive car, it's just a typical car.
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There is one, called V2G. It just isn't in all current EVs yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid
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That is the difference between the new car market and the used car market. New depreciates and then feeds supply into the used market.
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V2G is a catchall for any system that pulls from an EV to power your home or a larger grid. It doesn't define any standard.
By standard I meant one interoperable spec used by all manufacturers so I could plug in my Ford or my Kia or my Chevy or my Porsche and my house could pull power from any of them, just like the EVSE in my garage can charge any of those.
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In my case, it's because it's shiny. I hate shiny surfaces inside a car: they reflect light (generally sunlight) and are a distraction. Give me something nice and matte, please!
I got matte black vinyl wraps for my Model 3's piano black surfaces, and it was much nicer as a result. I should go looking to see if there's something similar for the EV6... once my budget stabilises. (Lot of urgent expenses that'll take a while to cover off, basically. Nothing life threatening, but a bunch of stuff that had to be done quickly. Plus a new bicycle, which counts as essential gear in my book.)
Yes.
Remember that power equals voltage times current. Also, voltage equals current times resistance. So if we look at the current running through the charging cable, the power dissipated in the charging cable (which will heat up the cable) is equal to the square of the current, times the resistance of the cable.
If you can double the voltage, you halve the current, for a given amount of power. Which means you reduce the losses in the charging cable to 25% of what they were at the lower voltage.
So the ultra rapid chargers, in order to keep the costs down (mostly by needing less cooling for the cable), all run at 800 volts, and will not increase the current if you rock up with a 400 volt vehicle - meaning you get effectively about half the power versus a vehicle that does 800 volt charging.
Putting on my didn't-finish-my-electrical-engineering-degree hat, I'd say it's the future. There are too many advantages to going 800 volts, especially if you have a large battery. I expect Tesla to drag their heels, thanks to their legacy Supercharger network (which has been designed specifically for Teslas, and hence will be operating at 400 volts), but I would expect the other manufacturers, as they ramp up their EV production, will be aiming to do 800 volts across the board.
Keeping my DFMEED hat on, I'm going to nitpick here. 50 kW is the measure of power. 50 kWh is the measure of energy. The battery in the car might store 50 kWh (or 60 kWh, or 100 kWh - whatever), but it will charge at 50 kW.
It's an easy mistake to make, but it bugs me.
On a side note, 50 kW DC chargers are very common here in Australia - more so than the 350 kW ultra-rapid chargers. A part of the reason is because they fall under the point where the electricity grid operator starts slugging you for unpredictable demand. If you want 350 kW consistently, 24 hours a day? Not a problem; the grid can build out to do that, and the generators will happily do it without quibbling. But if you want it at a moment's notice for maybe a half hour and then it goes away, you're going to pay through the nose for it - that sort of demand dropping on the grid is difficult to manage, and even more so if it occurs at several different sites. There's a reason why so many ultra rapid chargers get installed along with a bank of lithium batteries: it's so they can provide that surge of power without having to lean on the grid, and then top up at a lower rate from the grid once the car has disconnected and gone on its merry way. It's also why charging at an ultra rapid station is so expensive: around 60 cents Australian per kWh, versus 45 cents for a 50 kW charger.
Tenths... of inches? That's an allowance of 2.5mm. In the context of fitting panels, that allows for a total variance of up to half a centimeter (2.5mm in one direction for one panel, and 2.5mm in the opposite for the adjacent panel). That's fucking massive, and explains a lot. Yikes!
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So I've been watching old The Price is Right episodes on Pluto TV. They're currently running 1983. Although "It's a NEW CAR!" is a trademark of the show, most of the cars are economy cars, so you have things like a Chevy Chevette for $6500 in 1983, equal to about $20,000 now. They don't make a Chevette any more, but what can you get for $20K now? Looking on Cars.com, I see Nissan Versas and Kia Rios for sale in my area. Are they little econoboxes? Of course, but so was the Chevette. The Chevette doesn't even come with a cassette or 8-track player, though it does have FM radio.
And sure enough, the 2023 TPiR gives away a lot of Nissan Versas and Kia Rios in the slots where the Chevette would have been.
How about a car that's still for sale? Here's a 1983 Mustang GLX convertible with 3.8L V6 for (spoiler!) $14,620. That's $44,305 now.
View: https://youtu.be/wHd_QtQpBBA
Over on Ford's site, I can price out a 2023 Mustang Ecoboost Premium 2.3L 4-cylinder convertible for $42,160. The 1983 has a much larger engine... but the 3.8L was 105HP. The 2.3L is 330HP.
And let me emphasize: the 1983 Mustang was an utter piece of crap, even then. Despite the equivalent price, the 2023 is better in a million ways.
If you're going to go off on how cars are more expensive "these days", show your work.
And sure enough, the 2023 TPiR gives away a lot of Nissan Versas and Kia Rios in the slots where the Chevette would have been.
How about a car that's still for sale? Here's a 1983 Mustang GLX convertible with 3.8L V6 for (spoiler!) $14,620. That's $44,305 now.
View: https://youtu.be/wHd_QtQpBBA
Over on Ford's site, I can price out a 2023 Mustang Ecoboost Premium 2.3L 4-cylinder convertible for $42,160. The 1983 has a much larger engine... but the 3.8L was 105HP. The 2.3L is 330HP.
And let me emphasize: the 1983 Mustang was an utter piece of crap, even then. Despite the equivalent price, the 2023 is better in a million ways.
If you're going to go off on how cars are more expensive "these days", show your work.
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No doubt cars of today have improved comfort, safety and reliability. New cars have always been considered an expensive purchase. It was true then and true now but if you don’t think car prices have outpaced inflation you haven’t been paying attention. If you don’t like my sites use the Google.
View: https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic
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https://www.capitalone.com/cars/lea...-are-even-worse-when-you-factor-in-wages/1763
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It seems like you are agreeing that cars are an expensive purchase. You actually state cars are the “first or second most expensive thing” most people will own. Yet somehow this $40k car is different and is not expensive. You are too focused on the average new car price. That is not a proper indication of what the average person considers expensive.
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As far as we know Tesla's charging infrastructure is "400 V" only (inferred from the behaviour of "800 V" vehicles at Tesla's European Superchargers).
Most non-Tesla chargers above 50 kW are 920 V but there are some annoying 500 V ones.
There are also some anoonying 920 V chargers with 200-400 A cables which can't provide their full rated power to "400 V" vehicles.
Some "800 V" vehicles (Porsche/Audi, Hyundai/Kia) charge at 500 V chargers by using an internal voltage converter which limits charging power to the converter power (50-150 kW) so they actually charge slower than "400 V" vehicles on these 500 V chargers.
Other "800 V" vehicles (GMC Hummer EV) reconfigure their battery between "400 V" and "800 V".
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It's a matter of market appropriateness.
There is a lively trade in 40+ year old scotch, bottles range in price from $1000 to $40000 or more. So, if a particular bottle is $3000 dollars, then within the market of 40 year old scotch that is a reasonably priced example.
For many people the market for 40 year old scotch is simply too expensive overall, and they preferentially buy 12 year old scotch, at a price of say $50-$100 a bottle. Complaining that one can't buy a specific 40 year old bottle of scotch for the price of a 12 year old bottle is not constructive. Better to complain that all 40 year old scotch is expensive, but that's just going to garner a shrug and a recommendation to buy 12 year old bottles.
Similarly for cars, millions of new cars worth $40000 dollars and more are sold every year; $40000 is below the average purchase price of a new car even. If the price for a new car is simply too expensive, then the recommendation is to buy a used car where the average price is significantly less. But like a bottle of 40 year old scotch, calling out a specific, below-average priced, new car for being too expensive is non-productive.
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Answered to death, but I’ll try:
Three full sized adults, legs and all, can sit in the back row of a minivan. All seats are accessible.
Pull the mid seats — which is always easy — and you can load 4x8 sheet goods. 10’ lumber sits on the center console and stops short of the dash. The payload weight limit isn’t huge but the volume is unbelievably massive. Tarp that sumbitch up and have an amazing dump run.
It drives like a heavy car, not a body on frame monster.
In short, a minivan is a machine designed and refined around the purpose of loading and carrying the maximum volume of humans and or cargo as comfortably and efficiently as possible. A three row SUV is a way to wrap a pickup truck with extra sheet metal to make it useless for cargo and tell people it’s a luxury family vehicle.
(Except for the Land Cruisers and their ilk actually being regularly used as family Serious Off-Road Vehicles. Which is a valid application, but weird and not common enough to warrant the number of these things sold.)
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Chrysler makes a PHEV version of the Pacifica minivan, which gets consistently good reviews.
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