Coal plant forced to stay open due to emergency order isn’t even running

Department of Energy's attempts to prop up coal can look pretty pointless.

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[Walt Dizzy]

Performative stupidity. Like wearing shoes that don't fit because the boss bought them, because anything less is disloyalty.

 

[Fnyar]

Here's some additional detail about the plant's decision to idle (as long planned) in December:

https://www.kuow.org/stories/washington-s-largest-climate-polluter-shuts-down-despite-federal-order

Go kick rocks (coal?), Trump admin.

 

[crazy_vag]

Burning it to generate electricity is neither cost nor energy efficient and spews deadly ash into the air.

Yeah, it's dirty. But I'm comparing pollution from burning it vs. the pollution generated by diesel equipment and trucks used to scoop it up, haul it somewhere, and then prepare a site lined with material, so it can be buried without leaking into the groundwater.

There's also a cost associated with hauling the unburned coal away that taxpayers will have to fund.

 

[mschira]

I don’t think 1kg of coal makes 8kWh.

One litre of petrol has about 9.8 kWh of HEAT, when used in a combustion engine you won’t get more than 4lWh of motion out of it, in best case.
Turn that into electricity, you loose more.

coal is less dense than petrol in energy, because it has no lightweight hydrogen.

Each KG of coal produces about 8 KWh of electricity - to produce 8 MWh in a year is literally just Steve throwing a shovelful into the hopper once a day.O

 

[mikestew]

I don’t think 1kg of coal makes 8kWh.

One litre of petrol has about 9.8 kWh of HEAT, when used in a combustion engine you won’t get more than 4lWh of motion out of it, in best case.
Turn that into electricity, you loose more.

coal is less dense than petrol in energy, because it has no lightweight hydrogen.

6.7 kWh, give or take, but close enough for OP’s illustration.

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/JuliyaFisher.shtml

 

[Tactical Finesse]

Performative stupidity. Like wearing shoes that don't fit because the boss bought them, because anything less is disloyalty.

I really wish the Internet had capitalized on that moment and those photos and branded it a "Rubio" or something. The same way the internet took Rick Santorum and made his last name a euphemism known as such forever afterwards.

 

[AliSard]

Performative stupidity. Like wearing shoes that don't fit because the boss bought them, because anything less is disloyalty.

I sometimes wonder if I’m being hyperbolic referring to MAGA as a cult (it’s always good to try to guard against going too far after all), but then I see something like this happy horse shit and I’m like, “Yep, actually a cult.”

 

[bumppo]

Doesn't the plant need to burn through all its fuel? Cleaning up and moving unspent coal is neither cost nor energy efficient, so best to burn it all while they can.

They had used up all the fuel by the time the plant reached its long-planned end of life, two emergency declarations ago. https://meincmagazine.com/science/202...a-washington-state-coal-plant-to-remain-open/

 

[alansh42]

You hear so much about all the poor coal miners who are gonna lose their jobs and their communities if we turn off the coal plants.

I guess all the people who build and maintain the solar panels and the wind farms can just get fucked when the government shuts them down?

Coal jobs crashed due to mechanization decades before coal production declined. The coal jobs have been gone for over 30 years. Maybe Trump will insist on artisanal hand-dug coal too.

 

[Mad Klingon]

I'm genuinely curious how they managed to produce so little, but non-zero electricity. Did they burn fuel to keep the boilers running and just vent the excess? Or is this some sort of rounding / offset error? Some power inadvertently produced by an auxiliary generator or even solar panels on site that got lumped in with the coal plant?

If the plant has a cold start generator, possible the small power output was a test of that generator rather then some small fire in the primary firebox.

The sad thing is these emergency orders to stay as a coal plant are probably delaying the conversion to gas which could become a problem if a couple of data centers come on line prior to summer cooling season. Any contracts for said conversion are probably blown to crap and will cost more when finally allowed to start.

 

[raschumacher]

Want to protect the energy supply?

Don't order a coal plan open.
Order an AI datacenter closed.

Killing bitcoin miners wouldn't hurt, either.

 

[squiggit]

Doesn't the plant need to burn through all its fuel? Cleaning up and moving unspent coal is neither cost nor energy efficient, so best to burn it all while they can.

Presumably this was something they were already accounting for with the original closure. I can't imagine having the plant's closure date repeatedly extended by outside forces is particularly helpful wrt this concern.

 

[OrvGull]

The problem with coal as a hedge against a "surge in demand" is coal plants aren't good at ramping up quickly. You know what is? Natural gas.

 

[sixstringedthing]

So you're telling me that plans to convert a coal-fired plant to a gas-fired plant are still considered "too woke"?

Seems like one of the biggest challenges for this government is balancing the demands of Big Fossil Fuel (Oil & Gas) on the one hand, and Big Fossil Fuel (Coal) on the other. If only there were some alternative forms of energy generation that wouldn't leave the government beholden to one or the other...

 

[sixstringedthing]

The problem with coal as a hedge against a "surge in demand" is coal plants aren't good at ramping up quickly. You know what is? Natural gas.

Aside from the lack of ability to ramp up output quickly, based on previous performance of US coal plants I'd be willing to bet that the owners of the Centralia facility have not reinvested enough of their profits into properly maintaining and winterising it for uninterrupted operation in the face of a sudden cold snap or a particularly vicious winter. I'm sure I remember reading about an overall lack of industry-wide investment in this area after the disastrous failure in Texas, which makes the whole "energy security" excuse ring pretty hollow.

Even though upgrading the plant to burn gas would still require it to eat a non-renewable resource and chuck out tonnes of carbon emissions, at least it would give the community some genuine energy security via the opportunity to replace worn out or obsolete equipment and implement a full winterisation plan (as well as offering a far more rapid and efficient response to sudden peak demand, as you point out). Not an ideal outcome from an environmental perspective, but definitely better than the whole lotta nothing that the residents are currently getting by keeping the old plant idling away.

 

[Veritas super omens]

We had a very mild winter.

It was 83 F here outside Eugene today.

 

[nwexplorer]

It takes some power for the plant to run at all and stay connected to the grid. So when you calculate the net power as [power produced] - [power needed to run the plant] then the result can be a small number.

8MWHr really is an absolutely tiny number even for that, though. So I am also curious what has happened here.

Before the order, they had already run down their onsite coal supply to practically nothing, and did not order more. They were already in the middle of converting to NG. They were not told to stop doing that in the order, just keep the plant open basically. So the plant was/is technically open and in compliance, but already incapable of generating much if anything to the grid, even if it wanted to. The NG conversion was slated to be completed and in operation by December.

 

[nwexplorer]

Aside from the lack of ability to ramp up output quickly, based on previous performance of US coal plants I'd be willing to bet that the owners of the Centralia facility have not reinvested enough of their profits into properly maintaining and winterising it for uninterrupted operation in the face of a sudden cold snap or a particularly vicious winter. I'm sure I remember reading about an overall lack of industry-wide investment in this area after the disastrous failure in Texas, which makes the whole "energy security" excuse ring pretty hollow.

Even though upgrading the plant to burn gas would still require it to eat a non-renewable resource and chuck out tonnes of carbon emissions, at least it would give the community some genuine energy security via the opportunity to replace worn out or obsolete equipment and implement a full winterisation plan (as well as offering a far more rapid and efficient response to sudden peak demand, as you point out). Not an ideal outcome from an environmental perspective, but definitely better than the whole lotta nothing that the residents are currently getting by keeping the old plant idling away.

You sound like you don't live in the PNW. It gets colder than Texas did in and East of the Cascades. Winterizing equipment is done when installed, as in most Northern parts of the country. Even in Western WA. And this winter has been unseasonably warm all over the PNW.

 

[nwexplorer]

at some point they're gonna run out of the stocks of coal and have to contend with the issue of needing to order coal which takes months of to deliver, and since they're converting to gas any coal they don't burn down will be wasted money ratepayers have to pay for. normally these plants run down their stocks before closing.

Correct. They had already run down their onsite coal stocks to practically nothing and did not order more before the order. The plant was as good as closed already.

 

[gnasher729]

I'm genuinely curious how they managed to produce so little, but non-zero electricity. Did they burn fuel to keep the boilers running and just vent the excess? Or is this some sort of rounding / offset error? Some power inadvertently produced by an auxiliary generator or even solar panels on site that got lumped in with the coal plant?

I knew a factory that had a ship diesel for emergency power creation in case their grid connection broke down, and they tested it once a month for an hour. And the output was used, first because you wouldn’t waste it, but more because testing that you could use it was the actual test.

 

[gnasher729]

Coal jobs crashed due to mechanization decades before coal production declined. The coal jobs have been gone for over 30 years. Maybe Trump will insist on artisanal hand-dug coal too.

Not hand-dug. But every piece is hand-washed to make it the cleanest energy.

 

[Kisper]

Hopefully this signals a more active role for Democrats as the only legislative counter to Trump's and far-right Republican growing reign of terror. They can at least force the defunding of Trump's injustice campaigns and cause federal office nominations to fail by gumming up the works by not only withholding anonymous consent in the Senate, but also filibustering nominations and any budget that includes allocations for ICE, 'foreign adventuring', using the military to terrorize people at home (these so-called anti-crime deployments of National Guard troops), etc.

I just want to say thank you for not lumping all Republicans in with Trump. Many of us find his speech and behavior abhorrent, and the lack of empathy and civility in politics is increasingly hard to watch. Please know that the online echo chambers, talking heads, and venomous politicians do not represent my beliefs, nor those of many others, despite who's winning these elections. I desperately hope for a return to the kind of statesmanship we saw between Tip O’Neill and Reagan: cooperation and restraint from personal attacks even in the face of disagreement. Very few recent politicians are on that spectrum; Pete Buttigieg is the rare exception I’ve noticed. Even where I disagreed on issues, I was genuinely impressed by his demeanor while he was campaigning.

 

[AAA123a]

Doesn't the plant need to burn through all its fuel? Cleaning up and moving unspent coal is neither cost nor energy efficient, so best to burn it all while they can.

The average coal power plant at full load produces 3 times the electrity that that station made in two months in Just one day it's extremely wasteful to idle a power plant and have it staffed when it could have used this time to upgrade and overhaul the power plant the cost of moving coal is way cheaper than letting it just sit idle essentially just wasting coal as power plants are not very efficient at extremely low loads as it only produced enough energy for one house at most after the energy that the power plant needs to run was used ,powering 60 houses for one day or one house for 60 days is so little power that the cost of staff and maintenance most likely isn't even covered by the amount of electricity they sold

 

[Erbium68]

Each KG of coal produces about 8 KWh of electricity - to produce 8 MWh in a year is literally just Steve throwing a shovelful into the hopper once a day.

I would like a source for that number.

No, seriously, you are assuming 100% efficiency. Older coal plants tend to run at around 33% thermal efficiency, so allowing in various fiddle factors you are in reality looking at around 2-2.5kWh per kilogramme of coal.

That's part of why coal should be obsoleted fast - gas can achieve double that.

 

[henryhbk]

So you're telling me that plans to convert a coal-fired plant to a gas-fired plant are still considered "too woke"?

Seems like one of the biggest challenges for this government is balancing the demands of Big Fossil Fuel (Oil & Gas) on the one hand, and Big Fossil Fuel (Coal) on the other. If only there were some alternative forms of energy generation that wouldn't leave the government beholden to one or the other...

Big Sun, doesn't take it lying down, as a giant thermonuclear bomb that periodically angrily throws CME at the earth, you don't want to piss them off too much!

 

[henryhbk]

Thanks for noting the generation of a single family solar system in comparison. The amount of electricity generated from that plant is next to nothing. My home solar system ( hah ) generates 10 MWh per year, in Northern Illinois, with a sub-optimal panel direction ( I have large trees to my South and West, so array mostly faces East ).

The good news is the wild national swing to the right makes east a good direction now! /s

 

[Troppo]

Late stage socialism in our command economy. If markets were allowed to work the plant would be closed.

Statism, rather.

 

[launcap]

He got one thing right. I'm so, sooooo tired of all the winning.

The sad thing is that your Glorious Orange King-for-life would utterly fail to understand the sarcasm in that statement and puff out his cowardly, bone-spurred chest in pride that someone has recognised his greatness..

 

[launcap]

Maybe they should blame the increase in oil prices pushing people to electric cars.

Got mine a week ago. I'm enjoying driving past petrol (gas) stations and thinking "never again".

 

[launcap]

My home solar system ( hah ) generates 10 MWh per year, in Northern Illinois, with a sub-optimal panel direction ( I have large trees to my South and West, so array mostly faces East ).

Since it was fitted in November 2022 (not the best time of year to get it fitted!) our small 9-panel setup has generated 5.6MW of power.
Most of the panels face south-west and so, from about 11am on in summer, reliably generates all the power that the house needs and also fills up the attached battery which then runs the house until about midnight (depending on usage). And we make sure to use stuff like the washing machine during peak production times when the electricity is free

We are in southern England so get a reasonable daylight length in summer (when it's not raining!). Fortunately for the PVs, the town we live in is in a rain-shadow of two large ridges to the north and south.

 

[Tonkaman]

Doesn't the plant need to burn through all its fuel? Cleaning up and moving unspent coal is neither cost nor energy efficient, so best to burn it all while they can.

They already did that in preparation for closing it. It's not like they haven't planned on closing it for 5+ years or anything...

 

[Troppo]

The good news is the wild national swing to the right makes east a good direction now! /s

By cartographic convention only, which adds a second metaphorical layer to this assertion.
Better not start planning to move just yet.

 

[revdjenk]

The day trump talked about 'beautiful, clean coal' and his support for it, 9 coal mines were shut down in WV.
It doesn't matter what trump says if coal isn't economically viable (or in WV case where most of its coal is shipped overseas, and the foreign contacts stop purchasing it!)

 

[danielravennest]

I'm genuinely curious how they managed to produce so little, but non-zero electricity. Did they burn fuel to keep the boilers running and just vent the excess? Or is this some sort of rounding / offset error? Some power inadvertently produced by an auxiliary generator or even solar panels on site that got lumped in with the coal plant?

My guess is they turn it on long enough to make sure the parts still work : coal feed, burner ignition, boiler warm up, generator turbines spin, switchyard syncs to the grid. Once it is verified, they turn it all off. That way if the feds ask, they can prove it is "operational", just not operating as the cheaper sources satisfy all the demand.

[EDIT] A later comment explained they had already run down their coal stocks. I guess they were testing an emergency backup generator?

 

[numerobis]

The day trump talked about 'beautiful, clean coal' and his support for it, 9 coal mines were shut down in WV.
It doesn't matter what trump says if coal isn't economically viable (or in WV case where most of its coal is shipped overseas, and the foreign contacts stop purchasing it!)

The foreign contracts are falling over themselves to buy coal now, because of Trump’s war in Iran.

That’ll be short-lived as the neighbours of those foreign coal plants will be installing solar panels from China ASAP to never face getting dicked over by an orange again.

 

[brett_x]

The rough math is that you'd need just 10 100W lightbulbs running all year to consume the 8mWh that this power plant put into the grid.

 

[RZetopan]

“Department of Energy’s attempts to prop up coal can look pretty pointless.”

Only “can look”, rather than “is always looking”? Remember when Felon45 openly stated that he would use the government to boost any energy company that would send him a $1B “donation” bribe? Everything he does is a grift, and the drooling members of the press agree that everything is just fine. The brains and spines of jellyfish, turning investigative reporting into entertainment. Even Faux Noise claimed in court that they are not a news organization. Much of the mainstream press has yet to reach even that extremely low level of “honesty”.

 

[RZetopan]

Typo in the article: national gas generation --> natural gas generation

Edit: fixed in article

The first version works for the narcissistic, moronic gas bag ordering reality to follow his lead.

 

[Erbium68]

Got mine a week ago. I'm enjoying driving past petrol (gas) stations and thinking "never again".

I just worked out it will be three years around July since I last refuelled anything with liquid.
And 2026 looks like being the year when I risk dying of an excess of smugness.